[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

I'm hopeful that corroboration can be found so to out these individuals whom have caused such hurt through their exploitative behaviour. There's nothing worse than the truth being reduced to hearsay for a lack there of. I can only begin to fathom how these victims must feel. It's a brave move to come forward. Please, please let this find that the video games medium is as of this moment more forward thinking and prepared for change than has previously been shown.

I'm glad this was posted as I'd otherwise be unaware. I'm not on Twitter. I don't frequent these particular websites.

Rallick wrote:

Skyrim composer Jeremy Soule and Night In The Woods co-creator Alec Holowka accused of sexual assault

Not sure if this belongs in this thread, but it seems appropriate. The article relates this to the Me Too movement after the Weinstein allegations. We can only hope that this will move things forward in our industry, but to be honest I expect it to be a rehash of gamergate.

Alec Holowka is not Bombsfall, fyi.

Statement from Bombsfall/Night in the Woods:
IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDE5GTuW4AIPL56?format=png&name=small)

Statement from Bethesda:

Additional people being named and shamed:
Alexis Kennedy - Failbetter Games (Fallen London, Sunless Seas/Skies)
Luc Shelton - Splash Damage
Michael Antonov - Oculus VR

The rot is systemic.

Tanglebones wrote:

The rot is systemic.

Yes, and.

You could pick literally any other industry of a comparable size, and have a similar laundry list of assholes crop up.

The rot isn't systemic to videogames, it's systemic to everything.

Jonman wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

The rot is systemic.

Yes, and.

You could pick literally any other industry of a comparable size, and have a similar laundry list of assholes crop up.

The rot isn't systemic to videogames, it's systemic to everything.

I was thinking the exact same thing. The most obvious common link to this problem is men. I wish I understood this problem better.

Tanglebones wrote:

Statement from Bombsfall/Night in the Woods:
IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDE5GTuW4AIPL56?format=png&name=small)

Statement from Bethesda:

If I’m not mistaken, Bethesda hasn’t worked with Soule in quite some time. For example, his music has been notably absent from the recent Elder Scrolls Online expansions and he wasn’t going to be involved with 6. So that puts Bethesda in a tough spot since he’s a former not current employee. I think they should still issue a statement of course.

Regarding the problem with men, I think it’s especially bad in creative industries where brilliant but troubled employees are allowed free reign as long as they produce hits. The latest Wired issue covers this problem in depth at Google - highly recommend picking it up.

RawkGWJ wrote:
Jonman wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

The rot is systemic.

Yes, and.

You could pick literally any other industry of a comparable size, and have a similar laundry list of assholes crop up.

The rot isn't systemic to videogames, it's systemic to everything.

I was thinking the exact same thing. The most obvious common link to this problem is men. I wish I understood this problem better.

The problem is easy to understand: men are superior to women, so women must be subservient to men. Women have bodies that we sex with, so they have value in that function. Men are aggressive, women are submissive, so men should make women aware of their place. Men are strong, women are weak, so men should claim what they want. It has always been this way, and things were just fine, so there is no need to change. Changing anything means men can't do what they always have done, so it would be removing men's rights, that shouldn't happen.

It's crazy, and gross, and stupid, but it's not hard to understand. Literal centuries of patriarchy, countless instances of toxic masculinity in all aspects of life, simple inertia, and basic tribalism make it stick around. As long as women are a minority in any field, this sh*t is going to happen. To get women to not be minorities in these fields, some women have to deal with this torture, apparently. I wish I knew a solution.

Atras wrote:

I wish I knew a solution.

It starts with your action. It’s really easy to sit by and do nothing. It’s much harder to actually do something, that something can even be a really small thing in my experience.

Off topic example from the current conversation around sexual harassment but I digress...
I have the pleasure of working as part of a data science team where 66% of our team are women. I know as a white man with multiple university degrees I have an inherent privilege (evidence: I got hired at a higher level in the company than some of our female data scientists who have equivalent qualification. I’m sure it’s not all to do with my gender or race, but I have to imagine that it was a factor). I’ve been very open with our data scientists about my salary, because I want to help empower them to ask for more than what I make for their promotions. This last week I had conversations with two separate co- workers and we talked through and practiced some salary negotiation strategies.

So I know it’s not much, I’m literally saying, hey I make X amount of dollars, but if it helps even one of these brilliant women earn 10-20-30% more than me, damn am I ever going to be happy. And I’ll have done my small part in breaking the cycle.

Atras wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:
Jonman wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

The rot is systemic.

Yes, and.

You could pick literally any other industry of a comparable size, and have a similar laundry list of assholes crop up.

The rot isn't systemic to videogames, it's systemic to everything.

I was thinking the exact same thing. The most obvious common link to this problem is men. I wish I understood this problem better.

The problem is easy to understand: men are superior to women, so women must be subservient to men. Women have bodies that we sex with, so they have value in that function. Men are aggressive, women are submissive, so men should make women aware of their place. Men are strong, women are weak, so men should claim what they want. It has always been this way, and things were just fine, so there is no need to change. Changing anything means men can't do what they always have done, so it would be removing men's rights, that shouldn't happen.

It's crazy, and gross, and stupid, but it's not hard to understand. Literal centuries of patriarchy, countless instances of toxic masculinity in all aspects of life, simple inertia, and basic tribalism make it stick around. As long as women are a minority in any field, this sh*t is going to happen. To get women to not be minorities in these fields, some women have to deal with this torture, apparently. I wish I knew a solution.

I understand that part. I’m not obtuse. What I don’t understand is how a man can behave that way and then NOT hang themselves afterwards.

Crimes such as murder can easily be linked to mental illness. Murder might not the best analogy. But as you say, “I wish I knew a solution.” I wish that too. I was just thinking that that if more was understood, then the public could be educated and as a society we might start to get a handle on the problem and move towards a solution.

Part of my frustration at the ubiquity of the problem also comes from my desire to protect my daughter. She has mild autism and other issues as well. She will most likely live with us for the rest of her life, but she is mainstream enough to hold down a job. She’s a very creative person and might have a chance to work as an artist of some sort. She’s also beautiful. And I fear that her naïveté makes her a likely target to a predatory man.

Most murders have no mental illness. That's a GOP talking point that they use to deflect calls for gun control.

RawkGWJ wrote:

I understand that part. I’m not obtuse. What I don’t understand is how a man can behave that way and then NOT hang themselves afterwards.

You know the saying "If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything is a nail designed to be hammered." Well, many men grew up believing that what they do to women is the natural order of things and the way that it should be done.

I understand all this. And yet I’m still mystified and dumbfounded and searching for some kind of... I don’t even know. I feel like as a society we are so far away from from anything resembling a solution. Or even a path leading to the beginning of a clue that might help to begin the search for a solution. I feel lost. I guess that’s obvious.

I've been distracted by this all day: I've interacted with some of the people involved. Mostly in passing or at a distance, granted, but there were some people I used to admire who I've now cut ties with.

I'm glad people had the courage to come forward and talk about the abuse that they went through. I'm sad that it had to come to this.

As one who was raised in a highly conservative, highly religious, highly traditionally gendered culture, with only an unstable single mother as counter balance, I am one of those who has had to work very hard to not become the entitled, selfish, destructive, demanding, self-absorbed, cis-straight-white-male. I hate seeing reports like this because I know that also could have easily been me, and probably was me to some degree while I was growing up and in high school and whatnot. There's still a part of me that empathizes with the probematic and destructive views of these men because that's where I came from and I can trace the line from the things I was taught and where these men ended up, but the vast majority of me is so upset by their actions and complete lack of awareness and caring for other people.

The one thing I read that really stuck with me was from the incident with Jeremy Soule, where he was claiming a need for sex and a muse in order to be creative, the "needs" and "rights" for sex, and the mystical power of women over sex. It stuck with me because that latter few is something I still struggle to rewrite from my upbringing. I was raised to keep women on a pedestal, out of reach, the goddess over everything, from whom I can only hope to "get" what I "need." UGH! And while I've made a TON of progress, so much of the "mysticism" of women remains deeply ingrained and has been extremely hard to uproot.

I'm just so glad for the people I've met here and elsewhere that have broadened my view and given me to the experiences I needed for my new, and more respectful path. Lots of work remain, but that is the way of it.

Rereading, I wonder if my focus and phrasing are problematic. None of this is said to excuse or downplay the awful actions or beliefs of these men. I hope it didn't sound that way.

Antichulius wrote:

Rereading, I wonder if my focus and phrasing are problematic. None of this is said to excuse or downplay the awful actions or beliefs of these men. I hope it didn't sound that way.

You did say you empathize with them, which implies you still share those feelings to some degree. I think that's problematic, but it's hard to work on the problem without realizing it's there.

I experienced a childhood with great similarity to your own and despite intellectually rejecting a lot of the behaviours and attitudes I was trained to have, it's still all too easy to respond with them out of habit. Trying to deprogram half of your life is a hard thing that takes effort and attention. So I empathize with (share and understand) such people, but I don't sympathize with (agree and support) them.

Despite the difficulty, such a past can have perks. I had a co-worker who was raised without religion and in a left-leaning household. There are many things in the news he can't begin to understand because he doesn't know where the far right are coming from. I do. I was raised among them.

peanut3141 wrote:

So I empathize with (share and understand) such people, but I don't sympathize with (agree and support) them.

That's where I feel I am, too. I understand it, but do not and can not support or agree.

peanut3141 wrote:

Despite the difficulty, such a past can have perks. I had a co-worker who was raised without religion and in a left-leaning household. There are many things in the news he can't begin to understand because he doesn't know where the far right are coming from. I do. I was raised among them.

I was raised by a pack of wild hippie women during the 70s and most of the 80s. So I think I’m coming from a very similar place as your coworker.

Antichulius wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

So I empathize with (share and understand) such people, but I don't sympathize with (agree and support) them.

That's where I feel I am, too. I understand it, but do not and can not support or agree.

For what it’s worth, Anti, I never got the impression that you sympathized with the male offenders. When a child is indoctrinated from birth into a certain way of thinking, that indoctrination is incredibly powerful. Your post did help me to get a slight grasp of the origin of this widespread predatory behavior. My indoctrination that I received from my elders was very powerful as well. Some of it good. Some not so good. So in a way I can begin to understand the origins of this massively widespread epidemic of men’s sexual predatory behavior.

And also like you, Anti, learning what I’ve just learned does NOT make me sympathize with the men who prey upon women. It does de-mystify it a bit, which was sort of what I was hoping for.

Antichulius wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

So I empathize with (share and understand) such people, but I don't sympathize with (agree and support) them.

That's where I feel I am, too. I understand it, but do not and can not support or agree.

I need to go post this to the what have you just learned thread, since this is such a susincet explanation of the two and I always struggled to differentiate them.

Also ditto.

Tanglebones wrote:

Additional people being named and shamed:
Alexis Kennedy - Failbetter Games (Fallen London, Sunless Seas/Skies)

It's worth noting that Kennedy left Failbetter before Sunless Skies, and Failbetter was very swift in issuing a statement in support for people speaking up against Kennedy. So it's pretty easy to connect the dots there.

It speaks to the larger societal issues that the story of him leaving wasn't "co-founder of Failbetter kicked out for being abusive predator" though, and he got feelance gigs and launched a succesful indie game (Cultist Simulator) after that though.

lunchbox12682 wrote:
Antichulius wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

So I empathize with (share and understand) such people, but I don't sympathize with (agree and support) them.

That's where I feel I am, too. I understand it, but do not and can not support or agree.

I need to go post this to the what have you just learned thread, since this is such a susincet explanation of the two and I always struggled to differentiate them.

'empathy' and 'sympathy' are so conflated that they're practically useless for communication. Same with 'ethics' and 'morals'. Once you get the definitions straight in your own head, you can't trust that others don't have their meanings swapped, so you might as well just state your intent in simpler terms.

Likewise I think they are talking about two different axes, comprehension vs agreement. And the comprehension axis really needs three major breakdowns along a spectrum: I understand because I have gone through something very similar, I understand in an imagination/abstract way, I can't even imagine. Combine those three with Agree vs Disagree and I think we need six words. Ain't nobody got the brainspace for that.

I did a search to see if Jeremy Soule had made any sort of response to the allegations and it looks like his Twitter page has been taken down. I am really saddened by this whole thing. I wish his character was as beautiful and amazing as his music. Pride goeth before a fall, I suppose.

The sad fact is that Gamergate exposed that the video game industry is in deep need of a massive purge. It is an industry that has catered to entitled while male nerds for too long. These nerds think that because people didn't like them in middle school and jocks got all the girls, that it gives them free reign to bully and harass anyone they decide to other.

Yes, every industry has an issue with sexual harassment, but some, like video games, have a deeper connection to sexism and racism, from the presidents of these companies down to the consumers. Every level has significant issues in this area.

Jay, that's something I'd never connected before. I'm putting this out here while it's barely forming, so I'm sure it'll be fraught, so just know it's a raw mental dump.

The modern, technology-driven world has undergone a sort of fundamental power shift for white men, from the traditional physical and social power being seen as the ruling class, to an intellectual and creative (in the sense of creation not creativity) power fueling money as the new real ruling class. This gave rise to the previously pushed-down (but still privileged overall) geeks and nerds to feel their time had finally come, but in reality, it's only come for the lucky few who built the right companies or founded the right services, or created the right games, etc. (as it always been for the few). The rest were carried along on the wave of "overturning" the hierarchy, but without having done any of the actual work to make it happen (and going through the growth I think/hope comes along with that), so they're put in a position where they think they should have power but don't actually have what they think they should have, so they reach out to find that power wherever they can. They buy guns. They prey on women who they (and society) perceive as weaker/lower than they even were under the original scheme. Not to mention the "successful" ones who have no idea how to respect and honor their success and so run drunk with power along the same lines.

And now they're finding themselves called out by those they oppressed who are acting on their own inner power, and it's so very frightening to them, and likely (in a way) fueling even more the perceived unfairness they themselves feel and certainly the "unfairness" the collective feels. So the entrench themselves even further.

In short, they were raised to believe they could/should have power (white male), then when the shift happened and didn't include them, they found power wherever they could.

It's ugly. And it is so very destructive. And I think it underlays the even worse issue, which is that women (and insert all other oppressed/rejected groups) have been so low on the social status for so long that mistreating them becomes the "easy way to feel powerful." Add to that the "mysticism" of women and the "entitlement to sex" and you get rampant modern abusive relationships and predatory behaviors.

EDIT: This video I just watched hits on some of this, too.

I think you've nailed it with this bit:

they're put in a position where they think they should have power but don't actually have what they think they should have, so they reach out to find that power wherever they can.

But I don't think it's any more prevalent in gaming than it is in other industries/communities. It's more noticeable due to the very online nature of the gaming community, but I don't think say, the sports community, is less sexist/racist than the gaming community.

Stengah wrote:

I think you've nailed it with this bit:

they're put in a position where they think they should have power but don't actually have what they think they should have, so they reach out to find that power wherever they can.

But I don't think it's any more prevalent in gaming than it is in other industries/communities. It's more noticeable due to the very online nature of the gaming community, but I don't think say, the sports community, is less sexist/racist than the gaming community.

Yes, and... Let’s not forget that being a man DOES automatically provide a level of privilege not afforded to non men. Add to that the inherent privileges afforded men who are also white, cis-heterosexual, able-bodied, Christian, and slightly above average height and taller, and the amount of inherent privileges just grows bigger and bigger. So they actually DO have power, and they are either abusing that power or they don’t realize how much power they actually have or both of those things.

Add to that the potential indoctrination about women being inferior, which can be a direct indoctrination from their elders, or a more subtle but still powerful indoctrination from observing society’s mistreatment and undervalued opinion of women, and you really do have a recipe for a pandemic of predatory behavior towards women by men.

-

I feel that this informal think tank we have going in this thread is starting to drill down to the complex nature of this problem. Thanks for participating.

The nature of the problem isn't that complex at all. Men know what behavior is appropriate and what isn't, sometimes even more so than the women they've harassed:

The results found that there was a consensus among men and women about which behaviors were harassing, save for three that men were more likely to consider harassment than women, which suggests that the 20 percent of men who said they had “maybe” harassed a co-worker in the past know damn well they did.

The only difficult thing is how to successfully and permanently dig out the entrenched sexism and get men to actually treat women like people. Without a plan to address that things have actually gone backwards, with a significant chunk of men learning the absolute wrong lesson from the Me Too movement and deciding to be more likely to discriminate against women than they were last year due to their fear of being accused of sexual harassment.

The 2019 survey found that 27 percent of men surveyed have gone the Mike Pence route and now avoid one-on-one meetings with woman co-workers, 21 percent said they would now be more reluctant to hire women for roles that require close interaction, and 19 percent are reluctant to hire an “attractive” woman.

Sooooo, here’s something that is going to add a lot of fuel to this massive fire. My heart hurts for Scott and the Internet is going to be the Internet for awhile...

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/BsaC5a8.jpg)

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/lBKLd8D.jpg)

Yuck, sounds like this guy was a Weinstein level serial abuser. Hopefully this will not stop victims from coming forward to out perpetrators. Need to continue to rid society of dregs like this, hopefully not through suicide but at least make sure they can’t continue a livelihood in the industry (any industry).

In terms of how to change men like this, I frankly don’t think they can be changed. They need to be outed then removed and we need to continue to believe and support their accusers.

If this turns out to be a suicide, will there be an investigation?

I'm not sure how this goes for America.

When my father took his own life, we had a day in court, with individuals on the stand asked to walk through the events in the lead up to my father's passing, with corroboration sought in select instances. I'm still unsure whether it was solely for peace of mind for those of us left behind, or if blame may have been attributed. Anyway. Thus explains my train of thought.

This is horrible. It already was. It may only get worse. I'm expecting a huge backlash against the perception of trials by social media. If it's not already underway. I'm glad I'm barely clued in on much online. I hope those connected stay safe in the coming days. I wish our world was better.