[Discussion] Mass Shootings - Yeah, we need a thread just for this...

This year is the deadliest year ever in terms of mass shootings. In a political climate of polarization, it becomes harder to suss out legitimate information from the misinformation propagated by those with political agendas. Complicating this more is the continual resistance of 2nd amendment advocates to allow for political talk surrounding these massacres. This will involve political discussion to see if there are ways we can all agree might be good ways to prevent mass shootings.

This discussion should involve the details of any current, or future mass shooting, and how they compare to past mass shootings. How are they the same? How are they different? Do gun laws have an impact? Does the race of the shooter affect how we treat them? What makes one a hate crime and one an act or terrorism? Are these shootings the price of freedom?

Stengah wrote:
Docjoe wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Plenty of people truly care. They care enough to constantly submit new laws, join protests, or donate time and money; you can clearly see that after every incident. The problem is that what it will likely take to actually change things is more than what people are willing or even able to do. Nothings changing not because everyone's sitting around doing nothing, but because there is a significantly large and powerful group actively working against those trying to change things and there's no good option for stopping them.

I kind of agree with Atras on this one. I think as a nation we say “that’s really awful” but within a week we’ve moved on, knowing it will happen again. If we (as a nation) really cared we would have Puerto Rico style mass protests that basically shut things down until something is done. But there are enough people who actively want to keep the status quo or don’t care THAT much so that nothing ever changes.

I’ll admit to being in the latter group. I sadly have just come to accept that in this country, some innocent people are going to die every couple of months because we love our guns. I will be heartbroken if one of my loved ones falls victim but I just don’t see this country really caring that much, at least not enough to demand change.

The problem there is that in order to make the changes we want, people need to care about the less flashy things that enable and empower the people working against it, and few people do. We're not going to protest our way to better gun rights. Sandy Hook showed that they're not going to let anyone pass sweeping new laws no matter how horrible the event. If you really want change, you need to tackle things like gerrymandering, money as speech, and voter suppression so we can do something about the politicians that are actively working against gun control. We also need to stop preventing federal funds from being spent on researching gun violence and gun control. While tons of people care about gun control, not enough care about those, which need to be addressed before we'll be able to get actually meaningful laws passed at a federal level.

I'm hoping that the implosion of the NRA, that has already led to vastly diminishing donations to GOP politicians will erode their influence. GOP voters are much less opposed to basic gun control legislation than their representatives, exactly because the NRA has a stranglehold on them. No money == no influence in Washington, so hopefully the pendulum will start swinging back a bit.

Than again, the article I linked to lists a number of reasons why it would NOT happen like I described above so yeah... But I do believe, as a hippie commie European, that optimism is a moral obligation to a certain extent.

I was just writing in my journal that this current circumstance feels different from Stoneman Douglas. The combination of the diminished influence of an NRA riven by corruption scandals and financial woes and Congress divided with a deeply competitive election on the horizon has me thinking there are rays of hope to be seen on *some* gun legislation.

dejanzie wrote:
Stengah wrote:
Docjoe wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Plenty of people truly care. They care enough to constantly submit new laws, join protests, or donate time and money; you can clearly see that after every incident. The problem is that what it will likely take to actually change things is more than what people are willing or even able to do. Nothings changing not because everyone's sitting around doing nothing, but because there is a significantly large and powerful group actively working against those trying to change things and there's no good option for stopping them.

I kind of agree with Atras on this one. I think as a nation we say “that’s really awful” but within a week we’ve moved on, knowing it will happen again. If we (as a nation) really cared we would have Puerto Rico style mass protests that basically shut things down until something is done. But there are enough people who actively want to keep the status quo or don’t care THAT much so that nothing ever changes.

I’ll admit to being in the latter group. I sadly have just come to accept that in this country, some innocent people are going to die every couple of months because we love our guns. I will be heartbroken if one of my loved ones falls victim but I just don’t see this country really caring that much, at least not enough to demand change.

The problem there is that in order to make the changes we want, people need to care about the less flashy things that enable and empower the people working against it, and few people do. We're not going to protest our way to better gun rights. Sandy Hook showed that they're not going to let anyone pass sweeping new laws no matter how horrible the event. If you really want change, you need to tackle things like gerrymandering, money as speech, and voter suppression so we can do something about the politicians that are actively working against gun control. We also need to stop preventing federal funds from being spent on researching gun violence and gun control. While tons of people care about gun control, not enough care about those, which need to be addressed before we'll be able to get actually meaningful laws passed at a federal level.

I'm hoping that the implosion of the NRA, that has already led to vastly diminishing donations to GOP politicians will erode their influence. GOP voters are much less opposed to basic gun control legislation than their representatives, exactly because the NRA has a stranglehold on them. No money == no influence in Washington, so hopefully the pendulum will start swinging back a bit.

Than again, the article I linked to lists a number of reasons why it would NOT happen like I described above so yeah... But I do believe, as a hippie commie European, that optimism is a moral obligation to a certain extent.

Do politicians go along with the NRA's wishes because of political contributions or their ability to mobilize a large enough voter block to sway a primary? Both take money, but I think the latter will take longer to erode away.

Clumber wrote:

Do politicians go along with the NRA's wishes because of political contributions or their ability to mobilize a large enough voter block to sway a primary? Both take money, but I think the latter will take longer to erode away.

I think you're right that the voters are the worry. It seems like 'gun culture' is an identity in a way that 'gun control advocacy' is not. People don't get tattoos of their least favorite gun or subscribe to magazines with cool pictures of background checks. I've known people who were moderate-to-liberal on most issues, well within reach for Democrats, but categorically refused to vote for a pro-control candidate.

I don't know if any but the most lost-to-reason really believe that their AR-15s are all that stands between democracy and tyranny, but they *do* believe that guns make them who they are. And in most cases they also believe those guns are all that's going to keep them safe from the criminals and thugs who could break their door down in platoon strength at any moment. (Three guesses what those criminals and thugs are imagined to look like, and the first two don't count.)

qaraq wrote:

People don't get tattoos of their least favorite gun or subscribe to magazines with cool pictures of background checks.

I would at least look this magazine up on the internet. I actually googled "background check magazine" to see if anything came up, but no luck.

I would read it for the articles, though, not for the pictures.

qaraq wrote:
Clumber wrote:

Do politicians go along with the NRA's wishes because of political contributions or their ability to mobilize a large enough voter block to sway a primary? Both take money, but I think the latter will take longer to erode away.

I think you're right that the voters are the worry. It seems like 'gun culture' is an identity in a way that 'gun control advocacy' is not. People don't get tattoos of their least favorite gun or subscribe to magazines with cool pictures of background checks. I've known people who were moderate-to-liberal on most issues, well within reach for Democrats, but categorically refused to vote for a pro-control candidate.

I don't know if any but the most lost-to-reason really believe that their AR-15s are all that stands between democracy and tyranny, but they *do* believe that guns make them who they are. And in most cases they also believe those guns are all that's going to keep them safe from the criminals and thugs who could break their door down in platoon strength at any moment. (Three guesses what those criminals and thugs are imagined to look like, and the first two don't count.)

Bloomberg had an article today about how Republicans "face extinction in the suburbs" because of their complete and total opposition to any form of gun control.

You're right that gun ownership has become an identity thanks to the NRA, the GOP, and the marketing departments of every gun manufacturer. Gun ownership is now the single biggest predictor of your politics.

But, as the article points out, 57% of Americans support banning assault weapons vs. 41% who oppose it. And that support climbs to 62% among suburbanites and 74% among women in the suburbs. In fact, Americans broadly support a whole range of gun control measures.

Without wheelbarrow-fulls of NRA cash and its turn out the vote machinery--and facing tighter polls coming off the suburban ass whooping they got in 2018--more Republican politicians are going to have to choose between sticking to their guns or staying in power. Guns are just another political corner the GOP has painted itself into.

And as far as tattoos are concerned the WaPo just had an article about how 56 of the more than 2,000 gun violence activists that showed up for the Moms Demand Action annual conference celebrated their role by getting a tattoo. Turns out that having a friend or loved one killed by some idiot with a gun--or just fearing that it could happen--is a pretty strong motivator.

While the issue is more complex it is a rather sobering list

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another one that is more complex but still worth thinking about.

IMAGE(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67759434_3542444205766532_8339672779011915776_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQkr1zu70iu_EDBOBjxbU4q-oLO4fc-85pVzLt4-lMuRq4A5YHC3IXOwUoKHGn7ZG4pg0yRQbQuLRgDSAmo3cJLq&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=baa7b462c80ef5398ebb0868ab00e311&oe=5DEA07A8)

This is a bit mass shooting adjacent, but highly related thanks to El Paso's toxic mixture of conservative politics, racism, and guns.

So this bit of news caught my attention.

A 16 year-old in South Carolina was recently banned from Cardinal Newman High School, $15,000 a year Catholic college prep school, because parents brought a video to the attention of school administrators in which the teenager made highly racists comments and shot a box of sneakers that he pretended was a black man with both a shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle . The video had been circulating among the school's students for over two months.

I've spoilered the video because it's just frankly f*cked up.

Spoiler:

The school administrators took the video to the police who told them that making a violent, racist video is a perfectly legal thing and that they couldn't do anything. So the school moved to expel the kid, but his parents withdrew him instead. The school then banned him from their property.

A few days later another parent found another video the kid made in which he threatened to 'shoot up' the school. That video was also filmed over two months earlier. Administrators took the video to the police who finally arrested the kid, charged him with "student threats," and hauled him off to juvie.

That might be the end of the story, but it turns out the kid wasn't just any kid. He's the grandson of Richard Quinn Sr., a top Republican strategist who was known as a state kingmaker since the 70s, and son of Benjamin P. Mustian, a prominent area lawyer.

Quinn had helped the powerful, including Sen. Lindsey Graham's 2016 campaign and Alan Wilson, South Carolina's current Attorney General. Quinn was also at the heart of a state anti-corruption investigation that culminated in four Republican state lawmakers being sentenced in 2017, one of which was Quinn's son, former Representative Rick Quinn.

Quinn himself dodged charges of criminal conspiracy and illegal lobbying because he agreed to testify "fully and truthfully" to the grand jury. But he didn't and prosecutors charged him with 11 counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice a few weeks before his grandson made the videos.

From the early 80s to the 2000s Quinn was also the editor-in-chief of Southern Partisan, which used to be one of the country's largest neo-Confederate magazines. He penned various articles including ones where he erroneously insisted slaves were rarely separated from their families, that black people who stayed close to their former masters had more "satisfying" lives than "their cousins who ended up sleeping with rats in Harlem," and that Martin Luther King Day "should have been rejected because its purpose is vitriolic and profane" because what MLK did was "lead his people into a perpetual dependence on the welfare state, a terrible bondage of body and soul."

Quinn only removed himself from the magazine's masthead following backlash from him working on McCain's 2000 presidential run and claimed that he regretted his past views. Given his grandson's video, I highly doubt Quinn.

That racism is deeply embedded in the GOP isn't anything new. It's just shocking to see an example of the hate being transmitted across generations, moreso given how so many young, racist men are willing to violently act on that hate.

Oh lovely.
Cardinal Newman just moved to a newer location a few years ago.
We got the confederate flag off of state grounds but it took the murder of a legislator to accomplish.
I so hope my son moves out of state.

So, an employee at my workplace was fired not too long ago for some kind of professional misconduct. We've already had one staff meeting about the potential that he comes back and commits mass murder. Apparently he was acting somewhat erratically and may have a grudge against some of my coworkers he feels caused him to lose his job.

Perusal of his social media indicates he has probably 20-30 weapons of various type (knives, shotguns, handguns, assault rifles). Of course some are decked out with things like suppressors and duct-taped together extended mags. Somehow though I find the pics of his full torso body armor even more concerning. Hopefully he's just prepping for the apocalypse and this stuff isn't part of a revenge fantasy.

Would it surprise you to know that some of the imagery and text suggests an appreciation for violence, right wing causes, and a particular hatred toward "the left"? No?

The gist of the staff meeting, by the way, is that the police know, but it's not like they can do anything. No overt threats have been made. We just have to stay alert.

And on a completely related note, does anyone know if those spring loaded center hole punches used to break car windows would also work on newer office windows? I'm imagining a scenario where I'm locked in my office with gunfire in the hall outside, just hiding and waiting. I think I'd rather break out if possible.

So sad that things have come to this in this country that this is the kind of thing I'm thinking about at work.

OG_slinger wrote:

That might be the end of the story, but it turns out the kid wasn't just any kid. He's the grandson of Richard Quinn Sr., a top Republican strategist who was known as a state kingmaker since the 70s, and son of Benjamin P. Mustian, a prominent area lawyer.

There's a couple of things I think about this. First is that this isn't a Lovecraft story. The sins of a grandfather do not directly reflect on the grandson. His 'blood' isn't tainted by pure relation. Maybe if the kid was raised by him or had a special relationship most don't have with their grandparents, but its far from a given.

One of my (deceased) grandfathers was an obvious racist asshole. This has no bearing on me, except that it tainted every interaction after I understood enough to realize this. They didn't influence me much, since we rarely interacted after I was a teenager.

So I take this connection as a non-sequitur without more connective tissue.

That said, this kid is obviously awful and dangerous. Juvie won't fix him. I doubt it ever fixed anyone, but hopefully as a society we can make it as hard as humanly possible for him to become the next white terrorist.

polypusher wrote:

There's a couple of things I think about this. First is that this isn't a Lovecraft story. The sins of a grandfather do not directly reflect on the grandson. His 'blood' isn't tainted by pure relation. Maybe if the kid was raised by him or had a special relationship most don't have with their grandparents, but its far from a given.

One of my (deceased) grandfathers was an obvious racist asshole. This has no bearing on me, except that it tainted every interaction after I understood enough to realize this. They didn't influence me much, since we rarely interacted after I was a teenager.

So I take this connection as a non-sequitur without more connective tissue.

That's a fair criticism.

Upon further digging it looks like the kids mom--Richard Quinn's daughter--was the CFO and bookkeeper for her father's political consulting firm, Richard Quinn and Associates, and worked there since 2000.

Rebecca Quinn Mustian cut checks worth nearly $1 million to former state Representative Jim Harrison while he was a legislator for illegally advancing the issues of RQA clients. He was found guilty of multiple public corruption charges in 2018. Mustain herself was a witness for the prosecution, though a reluctant one who only agreed to testify as part of a plea agreement.

I'm going to hazard a guess that given their joint involvement in illegal activities Mustain and her father weren't estranged and he had some presence in the boy's life. Not to mention Mustain didn't seem to have any issue working for her father, who, again, was the editor-in-chief of a racist publication from her childhood to her late 20s.

polypusher wrote:

That said, this kid is obviously awful and dangerous. Juvie won't fix him. I doubt it ever fixed anyone, but hopefully as a society we can make it as hard as humanly possible for him to become the next white terrorist.

I agree, but this is a story that was almost not reported on at all. His parents did all they could to avoid him even being expelled from school because there'd always be that pesky question of *why* he was expelled. His father's a prominent area lawyer so you can rest assured that his juvie record is going to be sealed tighter than a drum or outright expunged.

And that means that a few years from now when the kid decides to do a repeat performance--this time against real people--we'd have been left asking the question "He was such a nice boy. How could this have happened?"

And if we want to do everything humanly possible to make it hard for him and others from becoming the next white terrorist we really have to stop giving racists the benefit of the doubt.

This kid's grandfather was a POS racist. He was also a power-broker for the political elite in South Carolina. His clients included multiple US Senators, state representatives, governors, attorney generals, presidential candidates, and more. He ran a racist magazine for over two decades (John Ashcroft, Bush Jr's Attorney General, gave them an interview, ffs). And all that says wonders about South Carolina's and the entire US political system.

His mother knew her father, his granddad, was a racist POS, but still decided to work for him for nearly two decades (while he was clearly breaking the law, even). I don't personally know how racist Mustian was, but she clearly was OK with her father's racism otherwise why would she work for him?

So it's not terribly shocking that the kid turns out to be a racist POS as well. He didn't learn that from video games or the hippity hop music. He learned that from his family and friends.

Speaking of which, who the f*ck was holding the camera? Another student at Cardinal Newman High School? Why weren't they also expelled (from whatever school they went to)?

Because, again, if we really want to stop this stuff from happening then as a society we have to ruthlessly expose and excise all of these people from our communities. No benefits of the doubt because he's a nice white boy from a connected and wealthy family.

How were his swim times?

jonmanhausered

gewy wrote:

And on a completely related note, does anyone know if those spring loaded center hole punches used to break car windows would also work on newer office windows? I'm imagining a scenario where I'm locked in my office with gunfire in the hall outside, just hiding and waiting. I think I'd rather break out if possible.

The auto escape window breaking tools (spring loaded or not) are designed to work on the tempered side glass in a car. Some quick googling indicates that modern office windows are likely to be either tempered (the tool should work, though glass thickness may be an issue) or laminated (the tool probably won't be effective). One of the pages I found actually listed as an advantage for laminated windows that while not as ultimately hard, they take a lot of effort and are noisy to break.
TL;DR: maybe?

Don't breakable windows in office buildings have a red dot/circle on them to tell the fire brigade which ones will provide easier entry?

ElectricPi wrote:
gewy wrote:

And on a completely related note, does anyone know if those spring loaded center hole punches used to break car windows would also work on newer office windows? I'm imagining a scenario where I'm locked in my office with gunfire in the hall outside, just hiding and waiting. I think I'd rather break out if possible.

The auto escape window breaking tools (spring loaded or not) are designed to work on the tempered side glass in a car. Some quick googling indicates that modern office windows are likely to be either tempered (the tool should work, though glass thickness may be an issue) or laminated (the tool probably won't be effective). One of the pages I found actually listed as an advantage for laminated windows that while not as ultimately hard, they take a lot of effort and are noisy to break.
TL;DR: maybe?

Clearly the American Patriot solution is to keep an AR-15 under your desk and shoot out the window. On your way down you can also fire bullets in the air to signal for help. 50-50 shot you get shot at though.

Reminds me of being in a club where someone started shooting. One dude tried to break the glass with a chair but it just bounced off.

Also reminds me of a scene from Resident Evil movie. The guy with the axe trying to break the glass.

Reminds me of that one episode of the Office where Dwight does a fire drill as only Dwight can.

Moggy wrote:

Don't breakable windows in office buildings have a red dot/circle on them to tell the fire brigade which ones will provide easier entry?

As a fireman myself, the centerpunch whint often work on most High rise windows because of their thickness, and as an aside, not all of them are tempered glass. They’ve been engineered, especially in taller high rises to resist both wind and building sway.

Hotel windows under four stories have to be escapeable though and, you are correct - many (but not all) building codes now insist on an easier breaking window in high rises that has a marking (that’s often jurisdiction specific - ours is a red x, but is also noted In building plans located in a room off of the lobby for convenience.

Even on a center punch, you’ll want to use it in a corner for easiest breakage. Throwing a chair or something at it isn’t going to do it (a la season 1 of walking dead)

BlackSheep wrote:

Even on a center punch, you’ll want to use it in a corner for easiest breakage. Throwing a chair or something at it isn’t going to do it (a la season 1 of walking dead)

We installed hurricane windows in our house this year. Pella architect series. Rated to withstand a 2 x 4 hitting it end-on - twice! There's no way I'll be breaking it with a chair!

Moggy wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:

Even on a center punch, you’ll want to use it in a corner for easiest breakage. Throwing a chair or something at it isn’t going to do it (a la season 1 of walking dead)

We installed hurricane windows in our house this year. Pella architect series. Rated to withstand a 2 x 4 hitting it end-on - twice! There's no way I'll be breaking it with a chair!

Those with the plastic layer sandwiches between plates we can’t even cut through because they melt from the friction and reform behind the cut. Best to go around them or find another way in.

Well, I'm on the first floor, but the picture I'm getting is that there's no guarantee getting out the window even with the right equipment.

And here's another tidbit of info from the El Paso shooting, which just pisses me off even more:

The El Paso shooting suspect's mother called the Allen, Texas, Police Department weeks before the shooting because she was concerned about her son owning an "AK" type firearm, lawyers for the family confirmed to CNN.
The mother contacted police because she was worried about her son owning the weapon given his age, maturity level and lack of experience handling such a firearm, attorneys Chris Ayres and R. Jack Ayres said.
During the call, the mother was transferred to a public safety officer who told her that -- based on her description of the situation -- her son, 21, was legally allowed to purchase the weapon, the attorneys said. The mother did not provide her name or her son's name, and police did not seek any additional information from her before the call concluded, they added.
gewy wrote:

Well, I'm on the first floor, but the picture I'm getting is that there's no guarantee getting out the window even with the right equipment.

And here's another tidbit of info from the El Paso shooting, which just pisses me off even more:

The El Paso shooting suspect's mother called the Allen, Texas, Police Department weeks before the shooting because she was concerned about her son owning an "AK" type firearm, lawyers for the family confirmed to CNN.
The mother contacted police because she was worried about her son owning the weapon given his age, maturity level and lack of experience handling such a firearm, attorneys Chris Ayres and R. Jack Ayres said.
During the call, the mother was transferred to a public safety officer who told her that -- based on her description of the situation -- her son, 21, was legally allowed to purchase the weapon, the attorneys said. The mother did not provide her name or her son's name, and police did not seek any additional information from her before the call concluded, they added.

Because of this job, I’m constantly looking at the exits to a building - not really for shootings but for fires and the like. Herd mentality and the flight or flight mechanisms pull people toward the place they entered when, in truth, there are many other exits around. The most notable example is the Rhode Island Nightclub fire where people died after making a human wall in front of the entrance. The other emergency exits were hardly used and were clear and free from traffic and imminent danger. If you’ve got the stomach and haven’t seen it, it’s easily found on YouTube.

OG_slinger wrote:

This is a bit mass shooting adjacent, but highly related thanks to El Paso's toxic mixture of conservative politics, racism, and guns.

So this bit of news caught my attention.

A 16 year-old in South Carolina was recently banned from Cardinal Newman High School, $15,000 a year Catholic college prep school, because parents brought a video to the attention of school administrators in which the teenager made highly racists comments and shot a box of sneakers that he pretended was a black man with both a shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle . The video had been circulating among the school's students for over two months.

Increasingly these days, every time I see these stories my immediate reaction is to wish someone could/would do a deep dive on the suspect's social media/YouTube usage. I feel like, done multiple times, you'd start to see a bunch of the same names appear.

Prederick wrote:

Increasingly these days, every time I see these stories my immediate reaction is to wish someone could/would do a deep dive on the suspect's social media/YouTube usage. I feel like, done multiple times, you'd start to see a bunch of the same names appear.

People do, and yes, the same names keep popping up:

IMAGE(https://i.postimg.cc/MHfmnH2Q/z3n5boykjee31.jpg)

Walmart bravely responded to El Paso by announcing that they've stopped selling guns.

Nah, who am I kidding?

Walmart responded to El Paso by sending a memo to store managers telling them to immediately remove any signage, displays, and demos for any video games that "contain violent themes or aggressive behavior," cancel any in store promotions of "combat style or first person shooter" games, turn off any TVs or displays in the Sporting Goods section showing "hunting season videos," and make sure no movies depicting violence are showing in Electronics.

The guns? They're still proudly displayed and readily available in Sporting Goods. Some of them are even on sale this week. You should probably buy a couple before those Demonrats ban them. You should definitely buy at least one so you can protect your family when they go grocery shopping.

what. the. actual. f*ck.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
Everyone knows that...

Capitalism ho.