The GWJ CRPG Club - Game 7: Baldur's Gate (In Progress)

Maaan, the end of the Nashkel mines was tricky with this group. I guess I rushed the chapter (IMO the Nashkel mines are the most tedious part of the game) because Imoen was the only character to hit level 2 by the end of the mines. I had to cheese spawn points and line of sight to minimize Mulahey's spellcasting and the number of the summoned horde.

I've picked up a few of the non canon NPCs but right now Rasaad is the only non-canon member after Branwen bit the dust. I liked her but there are tons of characters! I chose to let her RIP. Kagain was a fun to bring along for a while but the alignment issues were going to start to be a problem long-term.
I'm eventually going to part ways with Jaheira and Khalid once I rescue Dynaheir and fill the last empty space with someone new.

Rasaad is interesting but I *hate* his extra walking speed. Most of the time it just means I have to micromanage him. I think I am going to switch him for Kivan because he's going to be a giant pain in dungeons.

imbiginjapan wrote:

I think I am going to switch him for Kivan...

"That was a noble deed."

Really hoping to get into this soon! I used the dice roller this weekend to gin up a character. I’m going to play an elf fighter-mage. I was thinking about a kensai-to-mage dual class, but I just didn’t want to forever bar myself from armor AND helmets AND bracers. I think my desire to min-max was at war with my lack of patience for all the busy work I feared I’d need to do.

LastSurprise wrote:

Really hoping to get into this soon! I used the dice roller this weekend to gin up a character. I’m going to play an elf fighter-mage. I was thinking about a kensai-to-mage dual class, but I just didn’t want to forever bar myself from armor AND helmets AND bracers. I think my desire to min-max was at war with my lack of patience for all the busy work I feared I’d need to do.

Keep in mind even a fighter-mage cannot both wear armor and cast spells. I suppose if you don't mind the absurdity of blowing your spells then throwing on a suit of full-plate mid battle, it'll work

Got to Baldur's Gate.

I think the game takes a real down-shift when the party finally gets there. There's a lot of just wandering around. Getting to places is kind of annoying (to get where I want to go, do I walk off this edge or this same edge just down here?). After the payoff at the Cloakwood Mines, the narrative pace feels really slow. I know things pick back up, just need to get there.

I do remember playing this when it came and thought just wandering around Baldur's Gate not doing much in particular was awesome. 20ish years later it just feels sloggy. Maybe I have gotten impatient.

No, it's just badly designed. The navigation hurdles are really aggrevating obstacles.

You might make an argument that it's teaching you that where you enter an area depends on which area you left from to be able to handle a turn the story takes, but there's better ways to handle both of those things.

imbiginjapan wrote:
LastSurprise wrote:

Really hoping to get into this soon! I used the dice roller this weekend to gin up a character. I’m going to play an elf fighter-mage. I was thinking about a kensai-to-mage dual class, but I just didn’t want to forever bar myself from armor AND helmets AND bracers. I think my desire to min-max was at war with my lack of patience for all the busy work I feared I’d need to do.

Keep in mind even a fighter-mage cannot both wear armor and cast spells. I suppose if you don't mind the absurdity of blowing your spells then throwing on a suit of full-plate mid battle, it'll work :)

No, I know. But the bracers and the helmet are a pretty big deal, and (I think) mages can wear those. The helmet will negate crits, and there are definitely bracers of AC in the first game. And having the character's mage abilities online at the beginning of the game will give him the armor spell (AC 6, which provides a -4 bonus), which will make his early game AC better than the kensai (-2 AC bonus), and therefore will give him an easier time surviving.

I totally get that a Kensai / Mage is ultimately better. But it feels like the payoff is at the end of this game, or throughout BG2. I feel like playing a Kensai would require me to do a lot of handholding to keep a squishy front-line fighter out of danger, and that I'm setting myself up for frustration if I focus on a payoff that will come 20 hours in, vs. having a character that's more fun for me to play right now. Plus, a fighter-mage should still be plenty powerful.

Fighter/mage is definitely highly effective as the downsides of the mage all get offset.
I think Cleric/Ranger is likely the most OP multi-class.

Alien Love Gardener wrote:

No, it's just badly designed. The navigation hurdles are really aggrevating obstacles.

You might make an argument that it's teaching you that where you enter an area depends on which area you left from to be able to handle a turn the story takes, but there's better ways to handle both of those things.

I would not make that argument.

imbiginjapan wrote:

Fighter/mage is definitely highly effective as the downsides of the mage all get offset.
I think Cleric/Ranger is likely the most OP multi-class.

I am playing one now. It is. All pluses no minuses.

My only problem is that I usually play THE tanky damage dealer of the party and in this playthrough I am 3rd in line behind Khalid and Minsc. Interesting and different and totally not about my character for once.

It is teaching you to hurry up and get out of Baldurs Gate I think.

Just getting into Nashkel Mines.

I am having a lot of paralysis about my party so far. My character is an elf Fighter-Thief multi.

I started with the typical Imoen , Xzar, Montaron, Jaheira and Khalid. I figure I’ll finish the mines then get Branwen to replace Montaron, maybe hold Xzar til I find a better mage type. I’m hoping Branwen is still at the carnival after I finish the mine...

I'm in. I will start this up this week.

blackanchor wrote:

I'm in. I will start this up this week.

Welcome!

I'm looking forward to resuming this evening or tomorrow, once I get back from being on the road.

Just finished the final battle in Cloakwood before heading down below. That was rough, but the spoils are sweet. My level 5 kensai requires a lot of buffing & healing, and it probably doesn't help that everyone hides behind Branwen, our de facto tank. She's keeping a stiff upper lip about it though, "Tis a fine day to die!"

I got back to things tonight for a bit. It'd been a good ten days away, so it took me a little while to get myself reoriented.

I spent most of my time trying unsuccessfully to "complete" the timer element of Kivan's quest, so he doesn't leave the party. I think I have to be in Chapter 3 for that to work, though, so after messing around with it for a while I decided to just dump Kivan temporarily and come back to it later. (I think dumping Kivan stops the timer from advancing.) I added Branwen as a replacement.

I've also dual-classed Imoen as a Mage. I don't know why, except that tboon did the same thing and I figured that was a good enough reason.

Next up, I want to complete the quests around Beregost, then head to Nashkel for the mines.

Duel classing Imoen as a mage is practically cannon at this stage.

Godzilla Blitz wrote:

I got back to things tonight for a bit. It'd been a good ten days away, so it took me a little while to get myself reoriented.

I spent most of my time trying unsuccessfully to "complete" the timer element of Kivan's quest, so he doesn't leave the party. I think I have to be in Chapter 3 for that to work, though, so after messing around with it for a while I decided to just dump Kivan temporarily and come back to it later. (I think dumping Kivan stops the timer from advancing.) I added Branwen as a replacement.

I've also dual-classed Imoen as a Mage. I don't know why, except that tboon did the same thing and I figured that was a good enough reason.

Next up, I want to complete the quests around Beregost, then head to Nashkel for the mines.

GB, did you ever play Baldur’s Gate 2?

Canonically, she dual classed to mage at Level 7 thief (start of BG2 I think). I think the usual play is to dual class her to mage at level 6/7 thief to get max find traps and/or lock picking.

I dual class her at level 3 thief to get my party settled as I would rather just get that done ASAP and get on with the game while getting her thief skills, such as they are, back available relatively quickly. I am aware this is not the "optimal" way to play. I don't care.

LastSurprise wrote:
Godzilla Blitz wrote:

I got back to things tonight for a bit. It'd been a good ten days away, so it took me a little while to get myself reoriented.

I spent most of my time trying unsuccessfully to "complete" the timer element of Kivan's quest, so he doesn't leave the party. I think I have to be in Chapter 3 for that to work, though, so after messing around with it for a while I decided to just dump Kivan temporarily and come back to it later. (I think dumping Kivan stops the timer from advancing.) I added Branwen as a replacement.

I've also dual-classed Imoen as a Mage. I don't know why, except that tboon did the same thing and I figured that was a good enough reason.

Next up, I want to complete the quests around Beregost, then head to Nashkel for the mines.

GB, did you ever play Baldur’s Gate 2?

Nope, this is my first Baldur's anything.

If I haven't played the first game in a series when a second game comes out, I get kind of OCD about it and tell myself that I have to play the series in order. Same thing with movies, books, etc. I miss out on a lot of good things this way.

No worries! I do that sometimes.

BG2 lets you import your character, and there are a few (very few) things that carry forward with you, but BG2 starts in Amn (which is way south of Nashkel, let alone Baldur's Gate) and most of your decisions in the first game don't affect the plot of the second. BG2 also tell you, in the intro scene, that you saved the day with Imoen, Jahiera, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir -- which is probably why you will see people mention them as canon party members (or, will comment about breaking with canon!). And, as tboon mentioned, Imoen starts as a Rogue dual-classed into mage.

EDIT: BG2 is also, I think, where you really start to see some of the BioWare style of storytelling take shape. There are fewer characters than in BG, but they're all more fully drawn, have side quests, you can romance a variety of companions, etc. You can definitely see the commonality between it and games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, KotOR, etc.

Godzilla Blitz wrote:

Nope, this is my first Baldur's anything.

If I haven't played the first game in a series when a second game comes out, I get kind of OCD about it and tell myself that I have to play the series in order. Same thing with movies, books, etc. I miss out on a lot of good things this way.

I do that too, or at least intend to. Like I intend to take this playthrough and take it through BG2. We shall see if I can make it through all the way (don't think I ever actually finished Throne of Bhaal) before game OCD takes its toll.

When BG1 came out, I played through with almost the "canonical" party because there weren't 10,000 companions like there are in the EE (possibly being very slightly hyperbolic!) - I subbed Branwen for Jaheira since I wanted a "real" cleric: ah Branwen, I still have a soft spot for you even though you are kind of a garbage cleric - or some of the companions come way too late for me in the story line (I like to get my party sorted as quickly as possible, change is bad to me).

Agree with LastSurprise that BG2 is where the "BioWare touch" starts to show but I still love BG1 as a spiritual successor to my beloved Goldbox D&D games from the late 80s.

Well, now I've started in earnest! I've left Candlekeep, picked up a party of 6 (me, Khalid, Jahiera, Imoen, Xzar, and Monteron), and it's time to head south from the Friendly Arm Inn to Nashkel.

Way back when I played this game, I didn't keep Xzar and Monteron around to experience their story in connection with the Nashkel mine. I think I might try that, this time around.

I made it to the Friendly Arm Inn a few nights ago and stopped dead there - been totally distracted by:
a) moving to a new house
b) being able to game on the TV with a controller for the first time in over a year
c) building a shiny (mostly) new PC.

Must get going again..

Played a bit and made it to Nashkel. There don’t seem to be many obvious side quests going on, although I haven’t gone into every inn and house along the way. Is it best to explore the wilderness areas as you go or just press on with the main quest? So far only one character has leveled up, the mage is particularly useless at level one with two spells and 4HP.

I think the Nashkel mines should be a top priority, because it can be done with a relatively low level group and there is some decent loot to be found. After that, the ruins of Ulcaster and the Gnoll Stronghold should be doable, both are fairly interesting.

Making some good, steady progress here!

Almost as soon as I said that I might stick with Xzar and Montaron, I ditched them for Kagain. I needed a sturdy fighter much more then either of those weaklings. Then, I picked up Neera. I cleaned up a couple of quests around Beregost and the Friendly Arm Inn, then made it south to Nashkel today.

I've only really struggled with a couple of encounters: a band of hobgoblins on the way to Nashkel, where their numbers were high enough that Kagain got killed, and the assassin found in Nashkel, when you stop off at the Inn. First time I tried that assassin, I had just revived Kagain and hadn't done a corpse run for his gear (my party was already carrying too much when he died) so I just sat him outside. Big mistake. The assassin easily defeated me, over and over. Eventually I got Kagain's gear back, rested, restocked everybody's spells, and fought her again. It was easier, and only took a couple of tries -- I restarted once because, though I survived, the assassin's mind-control spells led me to start killing the inn's patrons.

Revisiting this game, there are a few things that I'm noticing:

  • In a way, this game feels more like playing D&D than other games using newer D&D engines. Those newer games give you a tighter narrative and more guidance, but the fact that you're let loose in the world with a general nudge toward Nashkel, a need to survive, and a lot of other interesting things that you could get into, definitely gives me a feeling of sitting around with members of my party, trying to figure out what to do next.
  • Compared to a newer game in the same style, like Pillars of Eternity, the wilderness maps feel a lot more sparse.
  • Leveling is much, much slower than any other RPG that I can think of. I've been around a number of maps, completed a few quests, started chapter 2, and only two members of my party have leveled: Jahiera (who started very close to level 2) and Imoen (who, as a rogue, has a much lower XP threshold to advance).
  • After having played newer games, it is strange to go back to a game where fighters have no real abilities you can activate (other than guard, I guess?), no passive skills they gain at level up (beyond weapon proficiency), and nothing that lets them lock down an enemy to prevent it from fleeing or targeting another party member -- beyond trying to attack first with the fighter, and hoping the enemy stays locked on.
  • Wizards are terrible at level 1. I find Neera interesting, so I've kept her in my party, but she can basically cast magic missile a couple times for really low damage, and fight with a staff. She doesn't even have proficiency in a ranged weapon, yet. And with 4 HP, I can't let her contribute to any fight in a meaningful way.

The last few points have more to do with the edition of D&D than the game. I think Baldur's Gate did such an incredible job translating a role playing system to a computer game, and was groundbreaking, but AD&D 2E has not aged well at all.

On the subject of experience, I think that it's interesting to see a game that intentionally constrains you within a low-level band. It makes sense that Baldur's Gate wouldn't allow you to level up to 20 (or whatever) -- given the difference in character power levels, especially for wizards, it would have been really tough to model all of that in one game. But with a game that focuses on level 1-8 or so, I would guess that it will be easier to go anywhere after gaining a few levels, and that the game will not feel level-gated in the same way as more modern RPGs do.

Whew! That was a lot.

Great summary, LS. I agree with everything in it.

I've been save-scumming when someone dies, although that was more at the beginning of the game than now. When I started I was dying quite a bit. Now it's gotten better.

I too am amazed at how long I've had characters at level 1 and how much of the content I've been able to access even though they are still level 1. It's more fun than I anticipated, as I feel like I can enjoy every level, if that makes any sense, rather than feeling like I'm playing just to get to the next level as quickly as possible.

I finished Chapter 5 and decided to do the Tales of the Sword Coast content before wrapping the main story. Ulgoth's Beard was fun and not that big a deal for my party but Durlag's Tower is a slog. I remember it being a slog but not this bad. It doesn't help that Imoen can neither find traps not disarm them with any regularity (may have to rethink the ol' dual her at level 3 strat, she needs to be a much better thief before becoming a caster). I can work around the trap finding with cleric spell Find Traps but knowing a trap is there and not being able to disarm it is maddening. And so much required stuff is behind traps. I kind of hate this, moreso since it is self-inflicted.

I will trudge on though. Hopefully will wrap BG1 this week for my first completion if I can keep from breaking my hand punching my desk in frustration.

Well I went through the tutorial and learned what the buttons do. No real idea how I should plan to build my party, or what the difference between multi-class and dual-class is, or anything else really, but I'm probably going to play it on Story mode and try not to stress about it.

LastSurprise wrote:
Spoiler:

Making some good, steady progress here!

Almost as soon as I said that I might stick with Xzar and Montaron, I ditched them for Kagain. I needed a sturdy fighter much more then either of those weaklings. Then, I picked up Neera. I cleaned up a couple of quests around Beregost and the Friendly Arm Inn, then made it south to Nashkel today.

I've only really struggled with a couple of encounters: a band of hobgoblins on the way to Nashkel, where their numbers were high enough that Kagain got killed, and the assassin found in Nashkel, when you stop off at the Inn. First time I tried that assassin, I had just revived Kagain and hadn't done a corpse run for his gear (my party was already carrying too much when he died) so I just sat him outside. Big mistake. The assassin easily defeated me, over and over. Eventually I got Kagain's gear back, rested, restocked everybody's spells, and fought her again. It was easier, and only took a couple of tries -- I restarted once because, though I survived, the assassin's mind-control spells led me to start killing the inn's patrons.

Revisiting this game, there are a few things that I'm noticing:

  • In a way, this game feels more like playing D&D than other games using newer D&D engines. Those newer games give you a tighter narrative and more guidance, but the fact that you're let loose in the world with a general nudge toward Nashkel, a need to survive, and a lot of other interesting things that you could get into, definitely gives me a feeling of sitting around with members of my party, trying to figure out what to do next.
  • Compared to a newer game in the same style, like Pillars of Eternity, the wilderness maps feel a lot more sparse.
  • Leveling is much, much slower than any other RPG that I can think of. I've been around a number of maps, completed a few quests, started chapter 2, and only two members of my party have leveled: Jahiera (who started very close to level 2) and Imoen (who, as a rogue, has a much lower XP threshold to advance).
  • After having played newer games, it is strange to go back to a game where fighters have no real abilities you can activate (other than guard, I guess?), no passive skills they gain at level up (beyond weapon proficiency), and nothing that lets them lock down an enemy to prevent it from fleeing or targeting another party member -- beyond trying to attack first with the fighter, and hoping the enemy stays locked on.
  • Wizards are terrible at level 1. I find Neera interesting, so I've kept her in my party, but she can basically cast magic missile a couple times for really low damage, and fight with a staff. She doesn't even have proficiency in a ranged weapon, yet. And with 4 HP, I can't let her contribute to any fight in a meaningful way.

The last few points have more to do with the edition of D&D than the game. I think Baldur's Gate did such an incredible job translating a role playing system to a computer game, and was groundbreaking, but AD&D 2E has not aged well at all.

On the subject of experience, I think that it's interesting to see a game that intentionally constrains you within a low-level band. It makes sense that Baldur's Gate wouldn't allow you to level up to 20 (or whatever) -- given the difference in character power levels, especially for wizards, it would have been really tough to model all of that in one game. But with a game that focuses on level 1-8 or so, I would guess that it will be easier to go anywhere after gaining a few levels, and that the game will not feel level-gated in the same way as more modern RPGs do.

Whew! That was a lot.

Agree completely. It's unfortunate that this is just the way AD&D worked and cannot be "fixed" in the Enhanced Edition. I guess they added the class kits from BG2 which is nice, but the low level combat is just so tedious: fighters/thieves can only autoattack and mages/clerics get like 2-3 spells. IMHO the 3/3.5e rules used as the basis for IWD2, NWN, and NWN2 were so much better.