Dealing with Divorce Catch-All

Arovin wrote:

Everyone I have discussed this with says I seem more animated and less depressed since I made my decision. But, I feel like a giant ball of stress almost constantly.

There is some evidence which shows that people with depression thrive in periods of crisis.

Weird to be posting in here, but after so many years living and dying with you folks going through this difficult process it only seems fair. Hell, the small GWJ community at the time banded together and bought us wedding gifts almost 15 years ago. Can't really get my head around that right now.

So Karla and I decided 5 weeks ago it was time to call it a marriage done and transition into being friends. Mutual, thank God, and after lots of couples counselling, conversations and self reflection. Our circumstance are different than a lot of you posting here and without kids less complicated, but maybe it's helpful for the people reading this to know it's not necessarily going to be a total disaster if you come to this kind of decision, but it's definitely going to hurt.

It wasn't because of money issues or affairs or anything like that. I don't really want to go deep into the personal details, but broadly speaking I can say that when we got together 20 years ago we fit together like puzzle pieces. We loved the same things, I was a stable, stoic 18 year old kid and she was an heart-on-her-sleeve, outgoing theater school person and I was so drawn to her I could hardly stand it. We grew up into adulthood together and for those first few years we stuck to each other like glue. Co-dependent glue. It was probably seven years or so ago that we realized that co-dependency was hurting us and propping up some bad habits we both had to make things seem "ok" when things were definitely not ok. We didn't really fight much, it probably would have been better sometimes if we did instead of smiling through stuff that probably needed to be tackled more directly.

We worked through that with a therapist and learned to grow independently a bit more. In the years since it just became more and more clear something was lost in the process and try as we might, we couldn't seem to get it right again. It was on Good Friday after a day of walking on eggshells around each other that it came up all in a rush to just lay it down. There was barely a pause between that declaration and falling into a deep grief. We spent the Easter weekend just the two of us bawling, wondering what life will be like, already anticipating all the little loses and gaps in ourselves that would take a long time to fill with something new.

I moved into the guest room the next day. It's funny, the boundaries that go up when you decide you're not married anymore. Touching changes. Hugs change. It's not bad, but some subtle gestures we reserve for a marriage vanish overnight.

We still love and support each other and even like living in the same house, although there are some days it's still a sad place to be. Tonight we watched Cowboy Bebop and walked the dog after eating and chatting about the day. Taking it slow.

The thing that surprises me is how unembarrassed we feel. It's just so true and honest to where we're at. It's the right thing to do and the best way to love each other. Not having kids make this easier too. Some assets and property to manage, but we already have a decent sketch outline for how that will work in a way that's fair and makes sure everyone is ok financially.

I don't really have any advice (unless someone asks) and I'm really not looking for any. Even considering the vaguely rosy picture I've sketched above - changing the course of your lives and the assumptions you had about it hurts like hell. It calls so many things into question and makes you take long, hard looks in the mirror.

I wish you all strength, grace and courage. Thanks for sharing your stories and process with the community, it's so tremendously helpful.

I hope everything works out well for both of you.
I think it is obvious but in case you ever fall into depression induced doubt, we love both of you.
What you have built here has had a tremendous effect on my life. I hope knowing that gets you through what you are going through.

Certis wrote:

without kids less complicated,

I mean what are all of us goodjers?

Seriously though it sounds like you're making the right logical decision but emotionally it will be tough. Best of luck and obviously this community is here for you.

blah. dusty in here. Amicable is best, bittersweet is ok.

I keep looking forward to being friends with my ex and savouring old, nostalgic, bittersweet memories, but I wonder if we'll ever get there.

I hope this works out best for you both, it sounds like you're doing it right.

That you've both arrived at this destination, and amicably, speaks volumes. Respect, and thanks for sharing.

I wish you both nothing but the best moving forward.

Thank you for sharing, Certis. Best of luck to you both.

Certis, it's always sad to see a new person posting in here, even when it is a good, amicable situation. Keep taking care of yourself and each other, don't dwell on the sadness if you can help it. It's kind of funny, my son (14 years old) and I were talking about my saddest moments just the other night, and I listed divorcing his mother as the saddest things for me. He honestly didn't understand; we have had a great divorce: very little contention over anything, able to stay friends, there to support each other through everything. I truly think we get along better now than we ever did while married, but it doesn't take away the pain of realizing that the relationship we had was over. Hang in there.

Sad to hear this, Certis, but glad it's going to be on good terms. Thanks for sharing your story.

Certis wrote:

It's funny, the boundaries that go up when you decide you're not married anymore. Touching changes. Hugs change. It's not bad, but some subtle gestures we reserve for a marriage vanish overnight.

changing the course of your lives and the assumptions you had about it hurts like hell. It calls so many things into question and makes you take long, hard looks in the mirror.

So very true.

Thanks for sharing, a lot about your story hits very close to home for me.

Sorry to hear that you and Karla are separating Certis. It sounds like you have a good plan for moving forward. I hope you both stay well and happy and can stay friends.

Certis, I am glad things are amiable for you, I am hoping mine can get to that point as we go through the process.

Right now, I am doing what I can to give her space to process everything. I spent the morning cleaning the upstairs in my house then moving my clothes, bedding and bathroom stuff up into my office. In the afternoon I went out to the movies with friends for the first time since 2013. I really needed that as it took my focus off the divorce for the first time in weeks.

Certis wrote:

I moved into the guest room the next day. It's funny, the boundaries that go up when you decide you're not married anymore. Touching changes. Hugs change. It's not bad, but some subtle gestures we reserve for a marriage vanish overnight.

Yup. That one got me a bit. Boundaries are really important as you work out the new stuff and how it all fits. Life changes really fast in some ways, yet others take an extraordinarily long time.

All the best as you move forward, Certis.

Sad to hear, Certis! It sounds like you are doing it slowly and with thoughtfulness, and to me, that's the best way. Welcome to the thread. Sorry you are here, but at least you've got all of us, right?

Certis wrote:

Even considering the vaguely rosy picture I've sketched above - changing the course of your lives and the assumptions you had about it hurts like hell. It calls so many things into question and makes you take long, hard looks in the mirror.

This is the thing that has continued, at least for me, for a very long time. I still question what happened, and taking those long, hard looks into the mirror haven't really stopped, even after a decade. I believe we all turn out better for it in the end. Taking that look into the mirror every once in a while, and learning from it, hopefully makes us better people.

My own situation has just taken a huge turn this week, as my ex has just left the country and arrived in Israel as of yesterday, probably never to return. The papers were filed at the courthouse this morning, and I now officially have full custody of my son, legally and physically. All of this is still sinking in for everyone involved. I don't know what the next few years until he turns 18 will bring. My current wife has never had to live with my son around 100% of the time - there has always been time each week that the two of us could spend just us together. Hell, since my ex and I separated a decade ago I haven't even ever had him around 100% of the time. I know this probably doesn't seem like much (that's what being a parent is! I hear everyone saying) but it really is a HUGE change for all of us, and it's something we had absolutely no say in.

Certis wrote:

The thing that surprises me is how unembarrassed we feel. It's just so true and honest to where we're at. It's the right thing to do and the best way to love each other.

Sorry to hear, but thank you for sharing. Glad its by mutual agreement, that's a huge plus, but don't be shocked if you get the delayed reaction blues, common no matter how stress free and cooperative the whole process has/will be.

OK, kinda minor question:

So I've been separated for around 2.5 years now. It's my son's birthday this Friday and I've got him on the Thursday night/Friday morning then the ex has the kids for the Friday/Sat/Sun. I figure I get to do birthday presents first thing in the morning and wish him and awesome day then he's off to his mum's house after school.

Ex suggested we all do dinner Friday night... but... is it ok that I don't want to do the "family" thing? I'd much rather take the kids out to dinner on Thursday night celebrate with him then, plus the Friday morning. Then she can do something on the Friday with them without me.

Question is, am I being selfish by not wanting to do the "family" thing? Do I need to suck it up and just do it. Or is it ok that I'm wanting to do separate birthday event type thing? We have a fairly amicable split and see her whenever I'm dropping off/picking up the kids. In the past we've done a "family" dinner type thing... just figure it's been 2.5 years now... does it end?

BlackSabre wrote:

OK, kinda minor question:

So I've been separated for around 2.5 years now. It's my son's birthday this Friday and I've got him on the Thursday night/Friday morning then the ex has the kids for the Friday/Sat/Sun. I figure I get to do birthday presents first thing in the morning and wish him and awesome day then he's off to his mum's house after school.

Ex suggested we all do dinner Friday night... but... is it ok that I don't want to do the "family" thing? I'd much rather take the kids out to dinner on Thursday night celebrate with him then, plus the Friday morning. Then she can do something on the Friday with them without me.

Question is, am I being selfish by not wanting to do the "family" thing? Do I need to suck it up and just do it. Or is it ok that I'm wanting to do separate birthday event type thing? We have a fairly amicable split and see her whenever I'm dropping off/picking up the kids. In the past we've done a "family" dinner type thing... just figure it's been 2.5 years now... does it end?

Is the desire to do things as a family from your ex or from your son? If it is from your son, then suck it up and do the family thing. You and your ex had kids together, and just because you are divorced doesn't mean you are no longer a family. If it is from your ex, then ask your son what he prefers.

BlackSabre wrote:

Question is, am I being selfish by not wanting to do the "family" thing? Do I need to suck it up and just do it. Or is it ok that I'm wanting to do separate birthday event type thing? We have a fairly amicable split and see her whenever I'm dropping off/picking up the kids. In the past we've done a "family" dinner type thing... just figure it's been 2.5 years now... does it end?

I am not a parent, so bear that in mind.

I completely respect how you're feeling about it, but I think it's about what makes the most sense and works best for your son. Is having two events, one with either parent, going to be odd for him? Does he need or want two separate events for his birthday? How old is he?

I hear you about "does it end" too, but I am firmly of the opinion that someone's birthday should be about what they want and in some ways I don't see why it would ever change. I mean, eventually, he will want to do his own thing without parents, I'm sure, but if it's still a thing involving his parents, if he prefers a single event with both parents and it doesn't cost you much to give that to him, I'd say keep with the flow.

As the father of 2, which I have been the sole custodian for several years now (my ex's choice, not mine or of my sons') I would chime in and say that I agree with the sentiment of what your kid is asking for, go that route. If it's solely the ex and you don't feel inclined, then I personally would feel free to say no thanks.

BlackSabre wrote:

Question is, am I being selfish by not wanting to do the "family" thing?

Not at all, I think the normal, appropriate thing to do is have separate birthday & holiday celebrations. I think you're better off having a talk with your ex now about this and establishing such a policy, rather than dragging something out for potentially years doing something you're not comfortable with. And I'd disagree with the above advice about letting your son decide, I don't think these decisions should be left to the kids, even if it is their birthday, it's up to the parents to establish the policies of this 'new normal' and kids will quickly adapt in my experience.

Thanks all. If anything, having the diverse opinions actually makes me feel better that there's no clear cut, "this is how it all works" kind of thing.

He's 8 tomorrow and I've decided that it's probably just the nice option to have dinner together and celebrate his milestone. But also, think it's worth having the conversation with my Ex too about what the plan going forward is as it's one of the items we just never really discussed.

I have been a member on GWJ for years but not a super active poster. I read tons of post and always feel like I'm a part of the community. I come here with a super heavy heart. I have been with my wife for 20 years, married for 13, and we have two incredibly awesome children. I will preface my story by saying that I have not always been an attentive husband.

My wife and I started a family early and we had to deal with many of life's obstacles; money, being young parents, working odd hours, etc. We spent the early part of our relationship constantly arguing over petty things. When we got married we felt things would get better. They didn't. We were so focused on raising our family and life issues that we lost sight of what was important in our life together. Fast forward to last November and I found out that my wife was in the midst of an 18 month affair.

Once she told me I think she believed it would be over. She thought I would rage and want out of the marriage. Sure I was incredibly hurt and upset, but I didn't leave. I actually did the thing that every article I've read tells me not to do; I took responsibility for what happened. The situation made me self reflect and I knew that while I was not responsible for the affair, I was equally responsible for the demise of our marriage. She should have come to me, told me what was happening and how she was feeling. She could have asked for change, for us to seek help. or she could have asked to leave. Any of those options would have been acceptable and understandable. Cheating for 18 months was not. However, I knew I contributed to her unhappiness. I knew I was not the most attentive to her needs. In a way, I felt like I might deserve what she had done.

Now, I'm trying to work on our marriage and be the best version of myself that I can be. She has promised to work with me, but I know she is still seeing her affair partner. I am not sure how much longer I can hold on. I want our marriage to work in the worst way. I absolutely love my wife and our family, but I can not continue to feel neglected and lied to. This is by far the most difficult situation I've ever had to deal with in my life.

I need to express these emotions. I hope you all do not mind. I really don't have anyone to truly confide in.

blackanchor, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I applaud your attempt to work through your wife's betrayal (and that's what it is, even if you "caused" it - which is not a fair supposition), but you need to take care of yourself. If your wife is still going to be seeing her affair partner (here I am assuming you mean she will be continuing the affair, not a situation where the two of them work together or have legitimate reasons to interact), you need to realize that the marriage is over, at least as you know it. Maybe you can turn the marriage into an open relationship, but no open relationship I've ever heard of can survive 18 months of lies.
Feel free to vent here, just about everyone who reads this thread has had some amount of overlap with what you're going through. You can rest assured that it gets easier.

Atras wrote:

Maybe you can turn the marriage into an open relationship, but no open relationship I've ever heard of can survive 18 months of lies.

Not that blackanchor has indicated that this is even on the table, but worth mentioning that opening your relationship as a direct response to infidelity is playing on Hard Mode, and usually doesn't go well.

blackanchor, very sorry to hear. It's like a punch to the gut that just doesn't stop. Like Atras said, you are not alone in this thread. Many of us have gone through something similar.

So she told you about an 18-month affair last November. If the affair is continuing it's now well-past two years. Maybe the marriage wouldn't have survived even without the affair, but the affair is not your fault. She (and he) made the mistake, not you. That was a lesson I needed counseling to understand after my wife's one-night stand.

What actions have you taken in the last ten months to work on your marriage? Have you gone to counseling, alone or together? To me, that's the biggest indicator that you both want to make things work. Anything else is rearranging deck chairs as your ship/marriage sinks.

Blackanchor, my deepest sympathies. One thing stood out to me:

Now, I'm trying to work on our marriage and be the best version of myself that I can be. She has promised to work with me, but I know she is still seeing her affair partner.

If she is still seeing her affair partner, any words or effort she is making to work with you to strengthen your marriage is nothing but lies.

JeffreyLSmith wrote:

blackanchor, very sorry to hear. It's like a punch to the gut that just doesn't stop. Like Atras said, you are not alone in this thread. Many of us have gone through something similar.

So she told you about an 18-month affair last November. If the affair is continuing it's now well-past two years. Maybe the marriage wouldn't have survived even without the affair, but the affair is not your fault. She (and he) made the mistake, not you. That was a lesson I needed counseling to understand after my wife's one-night stand.

What actions have you taken in the last ten months to work on your marriage? Have you gone to counseling, alone or together? To me, that's the biggest indicator that you both want to make things work. Anything else is rearranging deck chairs as your ship/marriage sinks.

I've done a few self-help programs like Marriage Fitness and read books like 5 love languages. My thought was that if I lead by example and put our marriage first and looked within myself I could lead her back. It sounds dumb, but I didn't want to let rage and anger dictate my response to what happened. I thought if I could be a better person and husband I could show her that we can be happy. I actually forgive her for what happened, but I tell her all the time that it's how you treat me going forward that will matter.

She doesn't know that I know shes still involved with the affair partner. I feel that if I tell her i know then that will be the end of our relationship. I feel foolish even saying those words because it paints me as being weak. I keep telling myself that I will do anything to keep my family together for my kids. I don't know if I can follow through on those words.

It doesn't paint you as being weak in my eyes. Wanting to hold onto something you truly care about is never wrong. I can't say I agree with tolerating ongoing behaviour you aren't okay with, but never think poorly of yourself for your feelings and commitment.

blackanchor wrote:

I feel that if I tell her i know then that will be the end of our relationship. I feel foolish even saying those words because it paints me as being weak.

I feel for you so much, there. It's one of the nastier anti-men aspects of toxic masculinity, this stupid idea that we can prevent infidelity by being 'strong enough'. You need to let that idea go, hopefully some day everyone will stop believing that we can control others through force of will, but until then, you need to do it for your own sake. You've been betrayed, that doesn't make you less of a man; you trusted someone - that's one of the bravest things anyone can do. Not raging at your ex-wife (and I do think you should start thinking of her as your ex-wife) is also the mature, strong way to behave. You still care about her, and that's honestly admirable, so being rude or mean is not how you want to go forward; but it's also important for your kids to see that you can handle a miserably tough situation without resorting to any kind of abuse. You need to tell her that continuing the relationship tells you that she is done with the marriage, and you should try to accept that and start taking care of yourself.

Atras wrote:
blackanchor wrote:

I feel that if I tell her i know then that will be the end of our relationship. I feel foolish even saying those words because it paints me as being weak.

I feel for you so much, there. It's one of the nastier anti-men aspects of toxic masculinity, this stupid idea that we can prevent infidelity by being 'strong enough'. You need to let that idea go, hopefully some day everyone will stop believing that we can control others through force of will, but until then, you need to do it for your own sake. You've been betrayed, that doesn't make you less of a man; you trusted someone - that's one of the bravest things anyone can do. Not raging at your ex-wife (and I do think you should start thinking of her as your ex-wife) is also the mature, strong way to behave. You still care about her, and that's honestly admirable, so being rude or mean is not how you want to go forward; but it's also important for your kids to see that you can handle a miserably tough situation without resorting to any kind of abuse. You need to tell her that continuing the relationship tells you that she is done with the marriage, and you should try to accept that and start taking care of yourself.

I won't lie and say that there isn't definite fear of being alone. Seeing my son everyday is a gift that I won't get back once I choose to leave. You are both right in that I'm in a toxic situation and I'm only enabling her to treat me this way. It's hard to know what the right thing to do is. My daughter is a first semester freshman in college and is already feeling homesick. How do I destroy the sanctuary that is home for her in order to make myself feel better? Sorry. I'm being dramatic. It's just hard for me.