[Discussion] How do we argue?

A discussion of ways to engage and debate with those on the other side of major social arguments

I don't know. If you told me that me speaking up to a friend about his or her (let's be honest; probably his) behavior and language had about a one in a thousand chance to change their mind, I still probably would. Sure, it'll probably end up going nowhere, but if there's even a chance I can make him think about how his behavior is impacting others, I think it's worth it.

A friend, yes. Those conversations can be worthwhile,
Someone you don't already have a personal relationship with, no.

I don't have anything insightful to add, but I wanted to say that I do appreciate this thread as someone who regularly has to attend Sunday dinner with my in-laws, who originally were opposed to the President during the primary but now love to carry water for him at any turn.

What complicates things is that now that I have a son, in time, I will have to explain to him how wrong his Granddad is for denying Climate Change.

Figured I would post in this thread vs start a new one. At what point do you start writing off longtime friends who have gone far right? Just asking based on feedback in another thread that maybe some of my military buddies hold views that reflect poorly on me if I continue to hang out with them online. But since I owe several of these guys my life, it’s hard to write them off entirely.

jdzappa wrote:

Figured I would post in this thread vs start a new one. At what point do you start writing off longtime friends who have gone far right? Just asking based on feedback in another thread that maybe some of my military buddies hold views that reflect poorly on me if I continue to hang out with them online. But since I owe several of these guys my life, it’s hard to write them off entirely.

I don't think there's any hard and fast rule you can apply. You’ve gotta take it on a case-by-case basis, but the focus should be on what that friend is bringing to your life, and also what you’re bringing to theirs.

To step back a moment though, I’ve lost contact with friends I still actually value, through the vagaries of life and geography. In light of that, I’m not shy about jettisoning relationships that have genuinely ceased to be valuable to the people involved. “Life’s too short” is very much the maxim I employ, but that’s me.

jdzappa wrote:

Figured I would post in this thread vs start a new one. At what point do you start writing off longtime friends who have gone far right? Just asking based on feedback in another thread that maybe some of my military buddies hold views that reflect poorly on me if I continue to hang out with them online. But since I owe several of these guys my life, it’s hard to write them off entirely.

If you ever want to chat about that, PM me. I served in the Navy for eight years, and I've struggled with very similar things. How do you maintain a relationship with people who were your family and your brothers for nearly a decade when so many of them have become uber-right wing fanatics?

trichy wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

Figured I would post in this thread vs start a new one. At what point do you start writing off longtime friends who have gone far right? Just asking based on feedback in another thread that maybe some of my military buddies hold views that reflect poorly on me if I continue to hang out with them online. But since I owe several of these guys my life, it’s hard to write them off entirely.

If you ever want to chat about that, PM me. I served in the Navy for eight years, and I've struggled with very similar things. How do you maintain a relationship with people who were your family and your brothers for nearly a decade when so many of them have become uber-right wing fanatics?

PM sent. After discussing Trump’s suggestion to pardon a bunch of former Green Berets and SEALs accuses of war crimes I realized that I had totally fallen for the whole “we vets need to stick together” line of reasoning. It doesn’t help that the article one of my friend’s posted on Gallagher was really one-sided.

jdzappa wrote:
trichy wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

Figured I would post in this thread vs start a new one. At what point do you start writing off longtime friends who have gone far right? Just asking based on feedback in another thread that maybe some of my military buddies hold views that reflect poorly on me if I continue to hang out with them online. But since I owe several of these guys my life, it’s hard to write them off entirely.

If you ever want to chat about that, PM me. I served in the Navy for eight years, and I've struggled with very similar things. How do you maintain a relationship with people who were your family and your brothers for nearly a decade when so many of them have become uber-right wing fanatics?

PM sent. After discussing Trump’s suggestion to pardon a bunch of former Green Berets and SEALs accuses of war crimes I realized that I had totally fallen for the whole “we vets need to stick together” line of reasoning. It doesn’t help that the article one of my friend’s posted on Gallagher was really one-sided.

Edit:

Same here but not in Gallagher’s case specifically. I remember very clearly realizing the tide was turning against progress when I saw a bunch of fake videos / meme sh*t being posted by members of my old unit on FB back in like 2010 / 2011.

It’s been hard for me watching some of my old Army buddies decline in to full-on fanaticism.

Much of the sh*t they started with seemed like anti-AQI / anti-ISIS stuff that really was just window dressing on hardcore racism and Islamophobia.

Reaper81 wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
trichy wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

Figured I would post in this thread vs start a new one. At what point do you start writing off longtime friends who have gone far right? Just asking based on feedback in another thread that maybe some of my military buddies hold views that reflect poorly on me if I continue to hang out with them online. But since I owe several of these guys my life, it’s hard to write them off entirely.

If you ever want to chat about that, PM me. I served in the Navy for eight years, and I've struggled with very similar things. How do you maintain a relationship with people who were your family and your brothers for nearly a decade when so many of them have become uber-right wing fanatics?

PM sent. After discussing Trump’s suggestion to pardon a bunch of former Green Berets and SEALs accuses of war crimes I realized that I had totally fallen for the whole “we vets need to stick together” line of reasoning. It doesn’t help that the article one of my friend’s posted on Gallagher was really one-sided.

Edit:

Same here but not in Gallagher’s case specifically. I remember very clearly realizing the tide was turning against progress when I saw a bunch of fake videos / meme sh*t being posted by members of my old unit on FB back in like 2010 / 2011.

It’s been hard for me watching some of my old Army buddies decline in to full-on fanaticism.

Much of the sh*t they started with seemed like anti-AQI / anti-ISIS stuff that really was just window dressing on hardcore racism and Islamophobia.

FWIW I really hate ISIS and feel little sympathy for their members. My hatred has only grown after listening to the Caliphate podcast which details some of the more gruesome policies like torture, executions, and mass rape. Interviews with former ISIS members also make it clear that there are no innocents. New members as young as 14 were forced to commit atrocities to prove their loyalty.

But I can see how calling out ISIS specifically could be misconstrued as hatred of Muslims in general, especially since that’s true of lots of Trump supporters.

On writing that, I’m wondering if I should go back and clarify/apologize in the other thread.

jdzappa wrote:
Reaper81 wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
trichy wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

Figured I would post in this thread vs start a new one. At what point do you start writing off longtime friends who have gone far right? Just asking based on feedback in another thread that maybe some of my military buddies hold views that reflect poorly on me if I continue to hang out with them online. But since I owe several of these guys my life, it’s hard to write them off entirely.

If you ever want to chat about that, PM me. I served in the Navy for eight years, and I've struggled with very similar things. How do you maintain a relationship with people who were your family and your brothers for nearly a decade when so many of them have become uber-right wing fanatics?

PM sent. After discussing Trump’s suggestion to pardon a bunch of former Green Berets and SEALs accuses of war crimes I realized that I had totally fallen for the whole “we vets need to stick together” line of reasoning. It doesn’t help that the article one of my friend’s posted on Gallagher was really one-sided.

Edit:

Same here but not in Gallagher’s case specifically. I remember very clearly realizing the tide was turning against progress when I saw a bunch of fake videos / meme sh*t being posted by members of my old unit on FB back in like 2010 / 2011.

It’s been hard for me watching some of my old Army buddies decline in to full-on fanaticism.

Much of the sh*t they started with seemed like anti-AQI / anti-ISIS stuff that really was just window dressing on hardcore racism and Islamophobia.

FWIW I really hate ISIS and feel little sympathy for their members. My hatred has only grown after listening to the Caliphate podcast which details some of the more gruesome policies like torture, executions, and mass rape. Interviews with former ISIS members also make it clear that there are no innocents. New members as young as 14 were forced to commit atrocities to prove their loyalty.

But I can see how calling out ISIS specifically could be misconstrued as hatred of Muslims in general, especially since that’s true of lots of Trump supporters.

On writing that, I’m wondering if I should go back and clarify/apologize in the other thread.

What I found with my buddies was that the anti-ISIS stuff was generally just a way to sort of test the waters. Like, “Hey, here are some dudes everybody hates... but really isn’t this every Muslim?”

That’s what I was trying to avoid in the other thread ... and also one of the things I’m trying to suss out among one of my close Army buddies. Sadly, I have my suspicions. But that guy is a lot of fun to game with and our guild leader, so I’m really struggling what to do next. I just took to heart a comment that you really can’t have those sort of friends in your life and still consider yourself moral.