"A Game of Thrones" Spoiler-Ridden Catch-All of Doom - books and HBO show

Gremlin wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

Speaking of dragon blasts...wow. Not only was flame hitting but tremendous force as well. They need to nerf that sh*t before they lose the fanbase.

Nah, that's the one thing that was properly set up. Remember Harrenhal, that melted castle that Tywin Lannister was using as a base when Arya crossed paths with him? Melted with dragon fire.

Melted is the key word. Not exploded.

I just wrote it off as the heat being so intense the stone literally exploded, which, according to Google, is a thing that can happen with certain types of stone.

You never go full Trogdor. I predict she's not long for that world.

BoogtehWoog wrote:
EvilHomer3k wrote:

Sorry, I disagree. She's always been prone to nuking things from orbit. But now, she's got no one to talk her down from pressing the button. She lost her two closest friends in the last two episodes. Three if you count her dragon. She's been betrayed by Varys, Tyrion, Sansa, and Jon. Combine that with Targaryan's natural tendency to go a bit mad and you've got a backstory for a super villain.

She had won. The battle and war were over. She committed full on genocide just because she wanted to. There was no respectable build-up to that from my view. It just was because D&D wanted it to be. It is a not satisfying arc because the build-up wasn't there. Not to the degree where she'd murder hundreds of thousands when she won.

I think they attempted to justify it earlier when she said she would burn the city because all the people within had sided with Cersei, and as such they were guilty of shielding their tyrant. And that future generations would be better served by having the city purged of those willing to seek her protection. I would assume that her feeling was that these people would never actually follow her, that they were all too much a product of Lannister rule to ever be redeemed, and no citizen in the city could be trusted not to attempt to overthrow her like they did in Meene.

However, I agree with you that even if this were her internal logic, and even if it led to the same actions with the same end result, they did a sh*tty job of even portraying her internal madness. It was just 10-15 seconds of her face visually saying, "Imma chargin' my lazers... IMMA CHARGIN' MUH LAZERS! LOLWTFBBQ!"

There's two good ways to have Dany burn King's Landing to the ground. You can have her go mad, start hearing voices and becoming increasingly paranoid or you can go with her ruthless streak and have her decide that if she can't rule with love then she must rule by fear. However, both of those options require time to develop Dany's character to get her to that point. You can't just take a shortcut and have her "snap" for no conceivable reason.

"Dany, maybe you should try smiling like a crazy person more."

Djinn wrote:

There's two good ways to have Dany burn King's Landing to the ground. You can have her go mad, start hearing voices and becoming increasingly paranoid or you can go with her ruthless streak and have her decide that if she can't rule with love then she must rule by fear. However, both of those options require time to develop Dany's character to get her to that point. You can't just take a shortcut and have her "snap" for no conceivable reason.

"When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground! Dany.

The show just didn't artfully get us from point A to B, probably because they rushed the ending.

I wonder if some of they key actors gave the Davids an ultimatum to finish the show up in two more seasons. It would explain a lot of the plot pacing issues.

Boo, that episode.

I thought Qyburn's death was funny! Not sure if it was good, but somewhat absurd to have this long-lingering evil weirdo dispatched so perfunctorily. Would have been easier to enjoy had it not felt like one of a dozen haphazardly completed character deaths.

Not only does Dany's destruction of the Iron Fleet and of all the Mega Crossbows show how nonsensical last week's dragon-killing was, it also makes all of the deaths this episode seem even more needless. Having ended any threat to her dragon, why didn't Dany just fly straight to the Red Keep and demolish that? Kill Cersei and render the whole battle moot. Dany's #1 goal was to kill Cersei, why spend all that time screwing around doing anything else?

Why is it that Sandor did not try to dissuade Arya from pursuing revenge until they got in the Red Keep? If he thought revenge was such a poor source of motivation, they had a pretty long trip during which to talk that through! And why, moments from attaining her practically series-long goal of getting to kill Cersei, did Sandor saying "actually revenge is bad" just flip a switch for Arya?

In the handful of earlier scenes where Cersei watches the battles from her tower and Qyburn slowly approaches from the shadows to say something to her, I kept anticipating Arya tearing off a Qyburn mask and sinking the knife in.

At this point, my guess is that Jon kills Dany (and possibly dies in the process), the seven kingdoms are divided, no one claims the iron throne (which is probably destroyed), Sansa is Queen in the North, and we hear about a handful of remaining living characters taking some leadership roles elsewhere (maybe Tyrion takes over his homeland? maybe we hear something about Gendry at Storm's end? Sweet Robin is now ready to rule?).

Bleh.

I think in the final analysis Jaime's character arc was even more pointless than Theon's. If the end for him was to die in the rubble of the Red Keep hugging Cersei than literally nothing he's done for, oh, the past five or six seasons was necessary. They could have just had him hanging out in the background of Cersei scenes and occasionally canoodling with her to remind us, oh yeah, sister-f*cker. Since apparently what we're supposed to take away is that's all he was or ever could be.

It would bother me a little less if he hadn't wrecked Brienne's arc as collateral damage.

Middcore wrote:

Totally endorse everything Jowner and Gremlin said above.

Pretty much this for me as well.

They certainly had the pieces in place for the Mad Queen and checked multiple boxes, but I agree with Riley McAtee's article on The Ringer that it didn't feel earned from a character standpoint.

LINK

"It’s one thing to be ruthless, as Daenerys has always been; it’s another to be truly cruel and evil. Daenerys’s actions in “The Bells” were the latter. She instigated a completely unnecessary mass killing, a vicious act that is entirely outside her established character. Maybe Dany, who has much of the same foreshadowing in George R.R. Martin’s books, was always destined to become the Mad Queen—it just doesn’t make sense for it to happen without the show demonstrating any internal conflict or nuance. Yes, Daenerys recently lost two of her dragons in Rhaegal and Viserion, two of her closest friends in Jorah and Missandei, and Jon’s affections. All of that adds fuel to her rage, but it’s not clear what sparks it. If Dany had caused so much collateral damage as a byproduct of her quest for the throne, her heel turn would at least have been consistent with her character. Instead, she blindly kills thousands with no clear goal in mind. Say what you will about Dany’s inherent tyrannical tendencies, but murdering innocent children and families in their homes has never been who she is. The broad strokes may have been suggested earlier, but the specifics came out of nowhere."

Middcore wrote:

I think in the final analysis Jaime's character arc was even more pointless than Theon's. If the end for him was to die in the rubble of the Red Keep hugging Cersei than literally nothing he's done for, oh, the past five or six seasons was necessary. They could have just had him hanging out in the background of Cersei scenes and occasionally canoodling with her to remind us, oh yeah, sister-f*cker. Since apparently what we're supposed to take away is that's all he was or ever could be.

It would bother me a little less if he hadn't wrecked Brienne's arc as collateral damage.

In the show, the two characters whose characters arcs I had the most invested in was Jaime and Sansa. Having Jamie abandon all of that growth and change felt like a weird kind of betrayal. I hope Sansa gets a better end.

That would have been infinitely better.

GOT is just the start of Marvel Phase 4. Spectacle over story. Which pleases my popcorn proclivities. It was a fun, non-sensical, Dracarys fueled marshmallow roast.

I heard that since last night's episode GRRM is renaming Blackwater Bay to Michael Bay.

Badferret wrote:

I wonder if some of they key actors gave the Davids an ultimatum to finish the show up in two more seasons. It would explain a lot of the plot pacing issues.

According to a recent interview with them, HBO offered to give them all the money they could ever use, the actors were on board, and they said no and limited it to the short seasons we got.

I have no idea what they think they were doing, and from the interviews after the episodes it's apparent that they have no idea either.

Gremlin wrote:

I have no idea what they think they were doing, and from the interviews after the episodes it's apparent that they have no idea either.

What, you're not convinced by insights into the minds of masterful story-tellers like "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet one scene after it had been explicitly discussed in her war council" and "Dany lost her marbles because she looked at the Red Keep for 15 seconds"?

They're crash-landing the series so they can hurry up and go make a Star Wars spinoff or their dumb Civil War show or something. That's it.

Middcore wrote:
Gremlin wrote:

I have no idea what they think they were doing, and from the interviews after the episodes it's apparent that they have no idea either.

What, you're not convinced by insights into the minds of masterful story-tellers like "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet one scene after they had explicitly discussed it" and "Dany lost her marbles because she looked at the Red Keep for 15 seconds"?

They're crash-landing the series so they can hurry up and go make a Star Wars spinoff or their dumb Civil War series show or whatever. That's it.

The cinematography, music, and production values certainly aren't lacking. The shows are a visual and audio feast. It's a shame D&D couldn't do more justice to everyone else who has busted their butts for eight seasons to give them a worthy sendoff.

Hey all, first time in this thread (afaik, unless I posted years ago). I was trying to just read the books, but the pervasive spoilers everywhere in social media and life made me decide to binge the show so that I could finish the story unspoiled. Last night was the first episode I watched since catching up!

Man, what a sh*tburger. Glad to see most people in here are roasting it as well.

I hope the Star Wars execs are crapping their pants right now. Episode 8 sucked so they replaced Rian Johnson with JJ Abrams and then hired D&D to make some future films - I'm sure that seemed like a slam dunk hire of proven quantities at the time, but now they look like a couple guys who can do good work adapting excellent material, but that's all.

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I agree with most criticisms I've seen, although I think the reason the Hound didn't try and dissuade Arya any sooner is that he thought she could pull it off without dying until Dany started nuking the castle. Also, I think he has his life's goal that he's marching towards, and can respect her doing the same, mostly. Also, although he probably didn't care much, I think he recognized that circumventing the horrible battle and loss of life would have been a good thing. He's shown empathy for common folk when he was hanging out with that group of spiritual folk earlier.

Edit: Ha! I posted on the first page of this thread years ago!

Must be a bit awkward right now for all the parents who named their baby girls Khaleesi.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

although I think the reason the Hound didn't try and dissuade Arya any sooner is that he thought she could pull it off without dying until Dany started nuking the castle.

I agree with this. Also, without Cersei being in obvious immediate mortal peril, there would have been no convincing Arya away from her task anyway. If anyone understood the unyielding drive for revenge, it's Sandor Clegane.

That is one of the few parts of the episode that I thought was done reasonably right. Mainly because it involved a character (Arya) being able to actually reason about the situation she was in, and make an appropriate decision.

Middcore wrote:

I think in the final analysis Jaime's character arc was even more pointless than Theon's. If the end for him was to die in the rubble of the Red Keep hugging Cersei than literally nothing he's done for, oh, the past five or six seasons was necessary. They could have just had him hanging out in the background of Cersei scenes and occasionally canoodling with her to remind us, oh yeah, sister-f*cker. Since apparently what we're supposed to take away is that's all he was or ever could be.

It would bother me a little less if he hadn't wrecked Brienne's arc as collateral damage.

I think there is value in a failed redemption story arc. Real life is full of people who make progress in life, only to self-destructively end up right back where they began. For Jaime, that relapse literally killed him.

The problem here, like everything else with this hatchet job season, is that it's so abrupt and underdeveloped that none of it gets across. Hatcheting up Brienne's arc was the shortcut taken to try and manufacture the emotional devastation we're supposed to feel when Jaime backslides. Literally, we're supposed to be feeling what Brienne does onscreen.

Personally, I'm waiting for A Song of Ice and Fire: Brotherhood

Wired: GAME OF THRONES RECAP: HOW TO RUIN EVERY BELOVED CHARACTER

Saw this over on Reddit:

IMAGE(https://preview.redd.it/yo391onn2zx21.jpg?width=600&auto=webp&s=71b498fe5319b3106fcc98288ace0b129d4593ef)

Gremlin wrote:
Badferret wrote:

I wonder if some of they key actors gave the Davids an ultimatum to finish the show up in two more seasons. It would explain a lot of the plot pacing issues.

According to a recent interview with them, HBO offered to give them all the money they could ever use, the actors were on board, and they said no and limited it to the short seasons we got.

I have no idea what they think they were doing, and from the interviews after the episodes it's apparent that they have no idea either.

But would they lay blame for truncating the show on the actors? Even if they declined to name which actors were to "blame," this is the year of our lord, 2019, and I can just imagine the internet hate machine turning its eye on some of the actors.

Or, maybe I should just take them at their word and they mailed it in.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

I hope the Star Wars execs are crapping their pants right now. Episode 8 sucked so they replaced Rian Johnson with JJ Abrams and then hired D&D to make some future films - I'm sure that seemed like a slam dunk hire of proven quantities at the time, but now they look like a couple guys who can do good work adapting excellent material, but that's all.

Fwiw, those execs loved Episode 8 so much Rian Johnson is getting his own trilogy.

And JJ Abrams didn't replace him, Colin Trevorrow was set for Ep IX but the Star Wars execs came to their senses that Jurassic World is actually a terrible film.

D&D's stuff is so far out that they still have time to dump them. Hopefully?

Badferret wrote:

Or, maybe I should just take them at their word and they mailed it in.

I don't blame the showrunners for being tired of doing this project.

I do blame them for selfishly ruining the project rather than handing it off to someone else.

It was in good shape at the end of season 6. Instead of deciding on the terrible two truncated season schedule, that was the time to gracefully hand it off.

Agree with pretty much everyone, for me the total WTF moments had to be:

  • Why is there yet another army defending from OUTSIDE their own keep.

  • If Clegane pep/turnaround talks are that effective, he should run for congress.

  • Re: Arya at the end, leave the Mia Sara/Legend fandom at home Mr Director, or go full on and give that unicorn a horn.

  • Mad Dany ... I get it ... bit of a heel turn, but I get it. Rest of the soldiers?!

Some of the cinematography was impressive, would love to have seen a little more on whether the Wildfire we saw was a nod to old caches of the Mad King's, or a Cersei scorched earth plan. Overall, this whole season has shown why you should never have show runners doing the writing unless there's also someone powerful and independent controlling the overall pacing of the season.

Anyone else maybe think Bran was Warging that horse at the end? Possibly taking her where she'll need to be?

Badferret wrote:

But would they lay blame for truncating the show on the actors? Even if they declined to name which actors were to "blame," this is the year of our lord, 2019, and I can just imagine the internet hate machine turning its eye on some of the actors.

I've seen articles indicating all the actors were fully committed for as long as necessary. I've also seen quotes from some of them where the gist was basically that they were glad to be done. The two aren't mutually exclusive, of course.

As much of some of them might be ready to move on, especially the ones who've been playing these roles half their lives since they were basically children... I have to admit I am not sanguine about the future prospects of a lot of these actors. The other roles that GoT actors have taken during the show's run have not, on the whole, been encouraging. I hope they can make their peace with the fact that GoT is probably the biggest thing most of them will ever do.

ShynDarkly wrote:

Mad Dany ... I get it ... bit of a heel turn, but I get it. Rest of the soldiers?!

That part didn't surprise me. There was a lot of talk about what happens when a city falls the last time King's Landing came under attack by Stannis back in season 2. If the "cease-fire" (no pun intended) had held Jon and the other commanders might have been able to keep it in check, but that kind of indiscriminate rape and pillage really was par for the course in medieval warfare.

Grenn wrote:

Anyone else maybe think Bran was Warging that horse at the end? Possibly taking her where she'll need to be?

I refuse to believe in any theory which involves Bran using his combination of near-godlike abilities that no other person in the world possesses to actually do something helpful.