Fabulous Final Fantasy Franchise Discussion Catch-all

Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

I was really hoping that combat would still be turn based. From the looks of the trailer I will likely be very disappointed in the gameplay.

It will be Final Fantasy 15 or Kingdom Hearts type battles - or at least that is how it looks. Neither of which are horrible but not my favorite either.

I can't speak for Kingdom Hearts, but it's only similarity to FFXV will be that it is action-based. The UI makes it clear that you can swap which character you're controlling at any time, and Limit Breaks are mapped to different Face Buttons. I'm assuming you'll be able to hold down trigger buttons to bring up other hot-keyed items.

Which now has me wondering if they're changing how Materia works.

The last trailer, even with its "gameplay" sequences, was made up from whole cloth, which Square-Enix has a history of doing. I wouldn't try to glean anything about the systems from this trailer, either.

farley3k wrote:

It will be Final Fantasy 15 or Kingdom Hearts type battles - or at least that is how it looks. Neither of which are horrible but not my favorite either.

I've never played Kingdom Hearts (it doesn't interest me) but I did play FF15 and that is why I think I will be very disappointed.

ccesarano wrote:

Which now has me wondering if they're changing how Materia works.

That is my major concern with magic in the remake because I think the magic systems in FF15 are terrible. FF7's gameplay and story development are built around it's magic system. If the gameplay of the remake is a slightly more advanced version of FF15 I don't think I could get interested in it.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

The last trailer, even with its "gameplay" sequences, was made up from whole cloth, which Square-Enix has a history of doing. I wouldn't try to glean anything about the systems from this trailer, either.

I know that Square-Enix, like most companies, put what their gameplay target is in their trailers. I think even today too many people couldn't handle the ugly early stand in development assets from a game 1-3 years out being in a trailer.

FF15 did look like it could have been really fun in the years of trailers we got before release. I'm specifically referring to the Leviathan "gameplay" trailer for FF15. From what I remember the physical combat looked quite fun. I don't recall magic being cast in that video but I could imagine a cool integration of magic into that system Square-Enix was trying to get to.

I agree that the final gameplay for the remake will likely look different from what is in this trailer. It still looks too much like every FF gameplay target video I've seen since FF 13. That worries me because I've not liked they way FF games have played in a long time. The original FF7 turn based combat would likely feel dated but I'd likely be more engaged with the old system than a system that's based of of FF15.

Gimpy_Butzke wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

The last trailer, even with its "gameplay" sequences, was made up from whole cloth, which Square-Enix has a history of doing. I wouldn't try to glean anything about the systems from this trailer, either.

I know that Square-Enix, like most companies, put what their gameplay target is in their trailers. I think even today too many people couldn't handle the ugly early stand in development assets from a game 1-3 years out being in a trailer.

I don't mean "this is a concept of what we're going for". I mean "the CGI company hired to make the trailer made it all up themselves", just like happened with FF13 and its trailers, or FF15, iirc. Don't trust their marketing.

ccesarano wrote:

They confirmed it's still going to be released "episodically", though at one point they evidently claimed each episode would be the size of a Final Fantasy XIII game.

Man, I hope that's an exaggeration to placate the crowd that thinks that a padded hour count means value.

I just finished playing through VII on the Switch, and with no grinding, liberal use of the x3 speed button, and no lengthy sidequests (didn't bother with any of the optional Weapons fights or Chocobo breeding, but did do Wutai and the Crashed Gelnika, etc), and otherwise neither particularly rushing nor dawdling, I clocked in at about 25 hours.

That felt good and right. I don't need to put in half again that time before even getting out of Midgar.

[insert standard "there are already plenty of good ways to play the game I remember so it's okay if the remake changes things in a way that turns out to be a garbage fire" disclaimer here]

ClockworkHouse wrote:

I don't mean "this is a concept of what we're going for". I mean "the CGI company hired to make the trailer made it all up themselves", just like happened with FF13 and its trailers, or FF15, iirc. Don't trust their marketing.

Is someone other than Square-Enix responsible for the trailer? I would be shocked if Square-Enix allowed another company to indicate potential gameplay or story for them. This is a genuine question because I can't think of a single instance in gaming where a company outside of the developers were responsible for the trailer of a game.

I agree that the trailer was showing a made up gameplay scene in that the specific instance on screen is likely to be completely scripted with the appearance of gameplay input. Where I disagree is that what else should a viewer infer than that is the direction the developers intend to take the gameplay? From what I recall of FF13 and this FF15 video

the gameplay in trailers was more exciting versions of what was in the finished game. That worries me if what I can see in FF7 remake trailers is more of the same thing that I know I haven't liked.

As a viewer all I can see is that the FF7 remake is still in development, it is pretty, and the gameplay from what is currently shown is based off of games like FF13 and FF15.

Not trusting the marketing dpt. for a Square-Enix product is very good advice. They spend a lot of time and money making pretty scenes to use for trailers like the one above that end up not being in any way part of the game aside from a resemblance of some gameplay mechanics.

Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

This is a genuine question because I can't think of a single instance in gaming where a company outside of the developers were responsible for the trailer of a game.

Outside companies make trailers all the time. This became especially apparent back when the Dead Island trailer landed and became the most hyped zombie game until... actual gameplay showed up.

Most of the time those kinds of trailers are obvious due to having no gameplay whatsoever. Another perfect example is the Halo 3 "Believe" ad which conveyed a very different atmosphere from the final game.

What Clock seems to be suggesting is that they give mock-ups from the developers and they do a far better job at faking gameplay than Killzone 2 managed back in the day.

Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

This is a genuine question because I can't think of a single instance in gaming where a company outside of the developers were responsible for the trailer of a game.

I thought this, too! But I did some research into it for an article I wrote for the Escapist ages ago, and actually developers almost never make their own trailers. That's the publisher's job, and the publisher typically outsources the work to advertising companies that specialize in trailers.

If they don't outsource it, then it's farmed off to a trailer group inside the company, but that's in the marketing department, not development. That's the case here, as the initial Final Fantasy 7 Remake trailer was made by Visual Works. (I had initially thought they were an outside contractor, but they're a separate company under the Square-Enix umbrella, so the relationship is somewhat closer than if they were a third-party.)

Everything in the FF7-R trailer was reportedly made-up by the trailer division. I brought up FF13 because something similar happened there: the combat system that was showcased in the E3 trailer prior to its release doesn't much resemble the final paradigm system in large part because at the time the trailer was made, the combat system hadn't even been designed yet.

Thanks cessarano and Clock for pointing out all of that stuff. I should have taken more time to actually think about the trailers I've seen and not about what parts of trailers I give a crap about. I was obviously wrong about trailers only coming from the developers as that would be asinine to think they always had the time to put aside to have developers make a trailer.

I had completely forgotten about the majority of the marketing cycle for the games you brought up. Thanks cessarano for reminding me about Dead Island. I remember a lot of outrage being caused by that trailer once the gameplay was seen. Having not played the game I don't know if the tone of the trailer has much to do with the game itself. As you said about Dead Island and the Halo ad tone can be very different from trailers to game.

If the Killzone trailer wasn't in house that would also surprise me because I wouldn't have thought Guerrilla would have had enough marketing money to pay for that. What I always thought of that trailer was that was how they got greenlit or part of the greenlight process to make the game. I can remember now about the side by side videos of that trailer and what it looked like on release. Killzone 2 was shown really early on in the PS3's life cycle and from my memory that video was always the target they hoped to achieve and not what they were saying they had achieved.

As soon as I saw Visual Works in your post Clock I realized how little I pay attention to the marketing aspect of gaming now. There was a time when Visual Works was a topic of discussion in my circle of friends. We talked about how good their work looked and it was around that time that a lot more people started to get on companies cases about showing fake gameplay. A problem that is still catches people out and resulting in people buying games based entirely on trailers that feature spec gameplay or none at all. I think one of the most recent games that caught people out from early E3 videos was Anthem.

I think where I got mostly caught up in thinking that developers did more trailers than I thought are the stories of development teams talking about having mini crunch periods near E3 where they are pulled off of making the actual game to make a "this is what we're hoping to achieve" gameplay trailer for E3. The new FF7-R trailer isn't likely the same thing as Visual Works is essentially a trailer division of Square-Enix as Clock pointed out.

I think I need to clarify my position slightly in that when gameplay, either faked or real, appears in a trailer I doubt that someone from the development team isn't part of the decision making process when it comes to what is in a trailer. If Visual Works had complete control over what is in the trailer and all they took was video from existing cutscenes and they independently created the gameplay sequences in the trailer without any input from someone in the development team then not only is that completely moronic but also irresponsible.

I wish this was sarcasm: What I am looking forward to the most is the "outrage" that will be generated when this thing comes out (assuming it ever comes out in my lifetime). I don't think I have any interest in playing the game at this point, but watching fans complain about it for months and years will be interesting, to say the least.

Also I'm curious to see how Square can turn some of the more goofy elements of the game (dolphin jumping, snowboarding, cross-dressing, Cait Sith) and make them somehow coherent with the more realistic look and serious tone (which I assume is what they're going for, judging by that trailer, even though I agree that most of it is probably a mockup of what they are hoping to achieve).

I need to replay that game. Maybe I should nominate it for the next JRPG club...

ccesarano wrote:
Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

This is a genuine question because I can't think of a single instance in gaming where a company outside of the developers were responsible for the trailer of a game.

Most of the time those kinds of trailers are obvious due to having no gameplay whatsoever. Another perfect example is the Halo 3 "Believe" ad which conveyed a very different atmosphere from the final game.

Reminds me of the Halo:ODST trailer.

Grenn wrote:
ccesarano wrote:
Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

This is a genuine question because I can't think of a single instance in gaming where a company outside of the developers were responsible for the trailer of a game.

Most of the time those kinds of trailers are obvious due to having no gameplay whatsoever. Another perfect example is the Halo 3 "Believe" ad which conveyed a very different atmosphere from the final game.

Reminds me of the Halo:ODST trailer.

Best story told in the Halo universe and it was done without a single word of English.

Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

Stuff about trailers and gameplay.

Oddly enough, I keep forgetting that it often works out this way. There's a pretty good YouTube video showcasing how Ubisoft "downgraded" Far Cry 3, Watch_Dogs and Rainbow Six: Siege, though it's likely the E3 trailers weren't actually the game at all. At best they were like the Halo 2 gameplay reveal, which was a stage built exclusively for E3 (and then made Bungie realized none of it would work and they'd have to start over from scratch). Then there's the case of Aliens: Colonial Marines, which really should have taught me not to trust any trailer.

It's weird how, in hindsight, that Ubisoft video makes me realize how many little tells there are that reveal how fake it is... but then I watched some real, actual gameplay footage of The Order 1866 again recently, and... it looks like a cut-scene in motion even during gameplay. So we're at a point where I don't want to be cynical enough to not trust any gameplay demo we see, but ...it's kind of hard to trust everything we see.

Though I will say, I thought last year's Spider-Man footage for PS4 was very fake and staged, and while there were staged elements of it, the sequence played out pretty much like it does in the final title. Plus, Nintendo is pretty reliable in showing the actual gameplay in its current development state.

I'd like to believe this is close to the game's current state. I dunno why I'm optimistic that the first episode would even release this year. Something tells me that's the target they're gunning for, but it would also behoove them to release this on both current and next-gen systems. So, we'll see I suppose.

bobbywatson wrote:

Also I'm curious to see how Square can turn some of the more goofy elements of the game (dolphin jumping, snowboarding, cross-dressing, Cait Sith) and make them somehow coherent with the more realistic look and serious tone (which I assume is what they're going for, judging by that trailer, even though I agree that most of it is probably a mockup of what they are hoping to achieve).

By cutting them out entirely, I assume. Except Cait Sith maybe.

I could live with an updated version of FF15 combat, from the few hours I played I didn't mind it. To me the cast of characters is what carries an RPG. As a FF7 fan boy I much prefer them to the bro group I was forced to play with in FF15.

I've put a few hours into Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII this week. It's a goofy game, but still maintains bleak tone permeating the previous entries. The goofiness this time comes from a self-awareness in the writing that's entertaining and good for a chuckle now and again. The characters are frequently as baffled by events as the player. The questionable voice acting at times is a point in its favor as far as I'm concerned.
IMAGE(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/807745557813657027/0546B20E16A7B4B15C2C1CD33FA1FD7FB3626F4E/?imw=1024&imh=576&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=true)

Although, to be fair, it'll be hard to top XIII-2's Crazy Chocobo theme when it comes to goofiness.

The two mechanical gimmicks this time around are

  1. A Majora's Mask-style countdown clock
  2. Swapping outfits for Lightning to get different stat boosts and access to abilities

The world is ending in 6 days, but completing side quests allows you to extend that time to a total of 13 days. You also gain an ability early on that lets you pause the clock for a period of time. Lightning's stats are improved by completing side quests. There's no XP to be gained from battles, nor overall levels. Monsters drop money and other resources.

Combat is now presented in realtime. You can move around the arena and fire off abilities, switching between outfits at will. There are bonuses for guarding right before an attack hits you, as well as for chaining attacks together. I'm still getting the timing down for those. It also includes the Stagger mechanic from the previous game, though now each monster has different conditions for staggering more quickly: attack while it's casting spells, get a perfect guard on a specific attack, mix up magic and physical attacks, etc.

The biggest impediment at this point will be remembering who everyone is and what happened at the end of XIII-2. Lightning Returns directly follows the events of its predecessor, which had a ridiculously convoluted plot. All indications so far point to the same being true of this one.

IMAGE(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/807745557813156193/566A9229588A13664FD2C665B6923869E13CBE40/?imw=1024&imh=575&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=true)

Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

I was really hoping that combat would still be turn based. From the looks of the trailer I will likely be very disappointed in the gameplay.

Have you played XII? As long as I can setup the combat with something like the gambit system, I'll be more than happy with it.

EDIT: although I bounced off XIII impossibly hard and have refused to play anything since XII so likely you're all on the right track with thinking they will use a modified current combat system.. I'll be heavily disappointed, but.. Cloud!! FFVII! I'll force myself to deal, I'm sure.

To be honest I probably wouldn't be too hot on the combat being like FF12 either. It would be better than what I'm expecting but not enough to get me super excited about the game.

Folks, it's going to be action combat. It's Nomura, he's going to make it an action game and they've been saying from the beginning that it was going to be action. I expect it'll feel a lot like FFXV and KH3, both of which are action-based but not full blood action titles like Dissidia (as mentioned in the article). I mean, sh*t, CyberConnect2 was originally developing the game because it was action based. What are CyberConnect's best games? Naruto fighting games.

And I think it's pretty clear it'll be a PS4 and PS5 title, but considering that Sony keeps mentioning backwards compatibility then it really no longer matters it's a split-generation title as the PS5 will play your PS4 version.

I've completed two - out of five (I think) - main quests in Lightning Returns. I like that the marquee boss fights are against your companions from previous games. They've got some serious emotional problems, living with guilt for the past 500 years, and you're there to punch them out of their funk. Again, though, the convoluted nature FF13's plot makes it difficult to remember exactly what happened to some of these characters or why they're behaving certain ways. There's a codex to refresh your memory, but still. If I had played this right after finishing XIII-2 I probably wouldn't have this problem.

Since fighting enemies doesn't reward you with XP or levels, I find myself avoiding combat more often. It's nice to be able to avoid low level trash mobs. I think this means I'm worse at the combat, though. I still can't reliably parry enemy attacks or get the attack bonuses for chaining my own correctly. The PC version also gives dozens of items that were DLC add-ons on console, so I'm drowning in options that I don't have the patience to sort through. My outfit/ability combinations are probably not very well optimized at all.

The countdown clock means I'm rushing through every area I come across, permanently holding the sprint button down and not taking time to enjoy the scenery. There are a lot of little details in this game - characters entering or exiting buildings, the way Lightning places her hand on the wall when you get close, idle conversations between characters. But I can't enjoy it because the stress of the countdown means I'm just in a hurry to get to my current destination. I couldn't appreciate a night time festival because there's simply too much to do otherwise.

Also, Hope never. Stops. Talking. He's constantly jabbering in your ear, and since I'm rushing around his dialogue ends up cutting itself off for a new line. The wordiness of the script is surprising given the game's structure. If you were to actually stand around listening to everything Hope says, you'd run out of time to do anything.

I'm curious if anyone who played this actually found themselves stressed by the clock, or if you found yourself with plenty of time to do everything and complete the story? Or is it expected that you'll do a NG+ to complete the game, similar to getting 100% and the secret ending in FF X-2?

beanman101283 wrote:

I'm curious if anyone who played this actually found themselves stressed by the clock, or if you found yourself with plenty of time to do everything and complete the story?

I still haven't beaten LR, in part because doing everything extended the clock so much I found I didn't have a lot left to do.

I set the voice acting to the Japanese language track which helps a lot with Hope. I remember the English voice actor being really annoying in 13. Lightning is okay in either English or Japanese, but Hope is non good in English.

I don't really mind his voice actor, though there's plenty of goofy/questionable voice acting in this game. I just wish there was less of him in general.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
beanman101283 wrote:

I'm curious if anyone who played this actually found themselves stressed by the clock, or if you found yourself with plenty of time to do everything and complete the story?

I still haven't beaten LR, in part because doing everything extended the clock so much I found I didn't have a lot left to do.

Couldn't you have just slept in an inn repeatedly until the deadline?

beanman101283 wrote:

Couldn't you have just slept in an inn repeatedly until the deadline?

I lacked the will to do so. And also was paranoid that I'd be underleveled. I intended to come back and do the chaff stuff, but then...just...didn't.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
beanman101283 wrote:

Couldn't you have just slept in an inn repeatedly until the deadline?

I lacked the will to do so. And also was paranoid that I'd be underleveled. I intended to come back and do the chaff stuff, but then...just...didn't.

That's fair

beanman101283 wrote:

I'm curious if anyone who played this actually found themselves stressed by the clock, or if you found yourself with plenty of time to do everything and complete the story? Or is it expected that you'll do a NG+ to complete the game, similar to getting 100% and the secret ending in FF X-2?

I recall doing the extra quests to get the extra days because I thought I would need them...and had three days to burn at the end because I completed everything. I felt rushed at the beginning but once I realized how the game worked, I slowed down and enjoyed the ride.

My biggest complaint for that game is that it felt like they set it up to almost require NG+ to get the right things to beat the final boss. That boss is REALLY frustrating. And yes, Hope needs to shut up. The secret ending is...weird. I don't remember what you have to do to get it but dang, it is weird.

Is that the one where:

Spoiler:

Lightning ends up on Earth, in Paris?

Haven’t played Lightning Returns, but I read about that, and boy did it seem weird. Kind of killed my desire to even try the game, TBH (that, and I haven’t even finished XIII).

LastSurprise wrote:

Is that the one where:

Spoiler:

Lightning ends up on Earth, in Paris?

Haven’t played Lightning Returns, but I read about that, and boy did it seem weird. Kind of killed my desire to even try the game, TBH (that, and I haven’t even finished XIII).

I'm not going to look up to see whether or not that spoiler is true, but god I hope it is. That would be hilarious.

beanman101283 wrote:
LastSurprise wrote:

Is that the one where:

Spoiler:

Lightning ends up on Earth, in Paris?

Haven’t played Lightning Returns, but I read about that, and boy did it seem weird. Kind of killed my desire to even try the game, TBH (that, and I haven’t even finished XIII).

I'm not going to look up to see whether or not that spoiler is true, but god I hope it is. That would be hilarious.

Spoiler:

Yes, that is the one. I was waiting for something like the ending of Monty Python and the Holy Grail but it never came. No idea what was going on.

beanman101283 wrote:
LastSurprise wrote:

Is that the one where:

Spoiler:

Lightning ends up on Earth, in Paris?

Haven’t played Lightning Returns, but I read about that, and boy did it seem weird. Kind of killed my desire to even try the game, TBH (that, and I haven’t even finished XIII).

I'm not going to look up to see whether or not that spoiler is true, but god I hope it is. That would be hilarious.

Oooo! That is so weird and rad! Will have to YouTube. Never beat the final boss and gave up.