Fabulous Final Fantasy Franchise Discussion Catch-all

My take on the opening of FF IX was that it's the first act of a romantic comedy.

So that video I was working on regarding Final Fantasy VI? I finally finished it.

Now to spend three months making a video on Final Fantasy IX!

Speaking of Final Fantasy IX, Square put out an "Inside FF9" video where some of the key members from its development discuss their time working on it. Biggest surprise that makes so much sense in hindsight: the look of the world was heavily inspired by The Dark Crystal.

Amarant totally looks like a muppet, now that you mention it. And Doctor Tot.

Personal favorite fan-service injector Final Fantasy Record Keeper just started its 4th anniversary celebration. Lots of fun little things thrown in.

Just in time for the release of FFVII, I finished IX on Switch. I’m glad I did - it cleared up my opinion on the game’s place in the series. For all my affection for it, it came out shortly before high school and thus I never replayed it like the other SNES and NES entries. I wasn’t sure if it was second or third favorite. Now I can confidently say it ranks behind VI and Tactics.

I liked IX. It was really comfortable, as in I felt it didn't try to be edgy and make a statement like VII or VIII, it was a fantasy save the world with as stereotypical characters. Perhaps one way to describe the game is that it didn't set my world on fire but it was a fun experience.

I actually had some gripes with the narrative. I like a lot of the character work, but the over-arching conflict becomes clear entirely too late in the game, and is a bad example of telling rather than showing. You literally learn the truth about the state of the world from a disembodied voice across the course of the final dungeon.

When the game leaves that storybook element and becomes a mixture of DBZ and Final Fantasy Goes to Tim Burton Town, I largely drop out as well. Everything up until then is wonderful. I wouldn't say stereotypical characters at all, though. Even if the Princess that wants to see the world has been done before, Garnett feels like a much more real and realized character than those other instances. There's certainly an effort to play around with expectations, but not for the sake of subversion. More in the sake of telling a good story.

Place your bets on whether or not it ever sees release at all.

Nor should they trust him given his record of finishing projects in any reasonable amount of time.

I'm still holding out hope for TWEWY 2. By that point, it will be Neku and Shiki's children running around Shibuya...

sometimesdee wrote:

I'm still holding out hope for TWEWY 2. By that point, it will be Neku and Shiki's children running around Shibuya...

Me too! Funny you mention it today; the Squeenix store just started shipping their Neku Bring Arts figure (according to the notification I got this morning)...

beeporama wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:

I'm still holding out hope for TWEWY 2. By that point, it will be Neku and Shiki's children running around Shibuya...

Me too! Funny you mention it today; the Squeenix store just started shipping their Neku Bring Arts figure (according to the notification I got this morning)...

Nice!

So I'm inching towards the end of Final Fantasy IX, and I just need to work out some thoughts. Spoilered because I know some people are still yet to play 9 and I am just gonna be speaking off the cuff about stuff.

Spoiler:

Firstly, the dynamic between Brahne and Garnet is far, far more interesting than what I know is coming with Garland and Kuja and Zidane's secret history. This game failed to resonate with fifteen year-old me because I was too cool for storybook aesthetics and was just being a dumb runt. But as an adult, it's very clear to me that Garnet is the real protagonist here, she's too good for Zidane, and that Zidane hijacks her story with stuff that's so tonally off track from what came before. When I was in high school (and up until my playthrough a few years ago), I was insistent that FF9 was just a melting pot of every prior Final Fantasy with some DragonBall Z tossed in. I don't think this is entirely inaccurate, but it's not accurate, either.

I'll need to go back and find some of those old interviews, but I feel like Final Fantasy IX as a product is supposed to be a culmination of the franchise, with an emphasis on Final Fantasy 1, 4, 6, and maybe 7. While the world doesn't end, the destruction of Alexandria is similar to the destruction of the world in 6, or has that same sort of formulaic-plot moment as waking up in Junon in FF7. That moment when the status quo is irreparably damaged. What I really liked in FF9 is that the game gives you a moment to feel the status quo is broken. You return to Alexandria and there's an unsteady "peace". People are back where they started, but threads remain loose and no one's really satisfied. Things are clearly not done... and then Kuja shows up and obliterates any chance of things returning to the way they once were.

But this also begins to draw away from that Jim Henson Dark Crystal storybook fantasy the game had so excellently executed on until now. It also feels like the game zigged from the Iifa Tree's zag. All the new revelations are going to fit with what the Iifa Tree monster said about "the refinement process" and Mist being a byproduct, but it's all hinging upon a villain dynamic that, quite frankly, blows.

Kuja is boring. I can't decide if he's better or worse than Golbez, because at least Golbez was restricted to more primitive technology. Like Marvel movies, Final Fantasy is shockingly bad at villains, which is no wonder why Kefka and Sephiroth stand out so much. I feel like Kuja is an attempt to combine elements of those two, but he's just constantly monologuing and so conceited and I just. don't. care. He fails to make the desired impact. I don't hate the guy for the reasons I should. I hate him because every time he starts waxing poetic about how much he's going to wreck everything I just yawn or roll my eyes.

The story is still doing some interesting things and the character dynamics work decently well, but rather than be more and more invigorated to find out where it's all going I'm just kind of... not. Granted, that's partially because I know broadly where it ends up, but...

Speaking of character dynamics, I feel like FF9 could have been a gender-reversal of FFXV over a decade before that game released. Replace Steiner with Beatrix, replace Zidane with a more rogue-ish Lani, drop Amarant altogether, and have 'em all taking kid brother Vivi on a trip around the world. Garnet is such a good character who is best when she's delivering the burns to Zidane, Eiko is best when she's having a sisterly bond with Garnet rather than fawning over Zidane, Freya is a generically cool warrior that is very much about honor and a love of country that you don't see often in Final Fantasy games (really, how often is someone in FF as much a patriot of their homeland as Freya is?), Beatrix is my waifu, and Lani... well I just want an excuse to remove Zidane.

I cannot lie and admit, as a stuffy lawful-asshole adult, I relate somewhat to Steiner, but boy howdy is the boy thick-headed. Amarant's just a grouch pretending to be awesome. Quina... makes a lot more sense given the Jim Henson connection. And let's face it, someone like Quina would totally be welcome on an all-girls road trip across the world.

Regardless of any of that, the last observation I wanted to get outta my system is the narrative:gameplay ratio, which feels so out of whack in this one. As I'm planning another video I've got over 40 pages of notes on this game, even though it's looking like I can complete it in roughly the same time as FFVI. This is in part due to being less familiar with it than I am VI, but holy cow, this game is so much story and narrative with very few dungeons and very little combat. Remember how I said this game was also a bit of Final Fantasy IV? That's largely in how the story swaps out characters based on what it wants to do with the narrative, which is fine except not all characters level evenly. More importantly, I hope you don't care about actually learning skills, because your equipment will be well below level by time some of them join the party again.

Which means FF9's methods of fixing the class-and-magicite issues of FF6 are screwed up by the game's emphasis on narrative and manually swapping characters out. Unless you grind, which I'm intentionally trying to avoid. I don't believe games should be designed with grinding in mind.

I will probably be skipping the optional content. Most of it is towards the game's end, and requires so many tedious tasks. That, I think, is an unfortunate evolution of FF7's approach to side content, like how you get Knights of the Round.

Anywho, those were some of the thoughts I just needed to unload. No doubt largely negative for now, but my overall feelings on the game are largely positive. It also makes me realize that I really want Final Fantasy to try and take a stab at some of the class and gear mechanics found in FF9 again, but with a better story/gameplay balance.

Consolidating my question onto this thread, where it fits better.

Of the 4 main FF games on the switch (VII, IX, X/X-2, XII), which would be the better pick?

I'm in the mood for a meaty RPG and I don't mind grinding if the battle systems are solid/good. I'll likely end up playing with a guide as far as world navigation/puzzle solving goes but am happy to experiment with builds/leveling. Ideally, I'd like the option to rework characters mid-to-late game when I discover my mistakes, but that's less critical.

I'm steering away from VII just because I never played it before, so nostalgia isn't in play, and honestly I'm not sure if I can get past the dated art. I know the story is apparently great, but I'm just not convinced I'd make it through the story and I already know the biggest points anyway. Plus, I do own it on PC if I really needed to try it out.

Any advice?

EDIT: Oh, and I guess I forgot about the XV mobile port... hmmm

So far, the answers have been a bit all over the map, which I expected. But to bring the conversation here, my take on the general thoughts seem to settle on:

VII did not age well
IX is good but a little dated
X, X-2 is either a like it or not like it game
XII is not a typcial FF game, though I'd be curious about what that means.

XII is probably the one I'm leaning more toward right now.
Then IX, as much likely for the cheaper entry price.

All of them would be great choices, but I would recommend XII or IX, simply because they are my favorite and I feel the least "out there' plot wise. If you want a straight up Fantasy setting hit up IX, but for more of a tech/fantasy/Star Wars feel hit up XII.

Short answer: I'd recommend X (one of my personal favorites) or XII. I wouldn't recommend X-2 without playing X, because the story in X-2 basically relies on the idea that, after playing FF X, you'll be really invested in what happened to the world of Spira (or, that you really like playing dress-up).

I think FF XII is "not like a normal FF game" because its battle system is very different from anything else that preceded it.

Antichulius wrote:

I'm steering away from VII just because I never played it before, so nostalgia isn't in play, and honestly I'm not sure if I can get past the dated art. I know the story is apparently great, but I'm just not convinced I'd make it through the story and I already know the biggest points anyway. Plus, I do own it on PC if I really needed to try it out.

If you think you won't like the art and graphics in FF VII, you're probably right -- and you would have to spend a LOT of time with those polygon Legos. And, I'm sure this will provoke some disagreement, but I think it's debatable how great the story is. For me, some parts work well; some parts (like the whole "who is Cloud really" question) come off as weird and don't fully connect with me.

The other three have some pretty substantial differences. Like FF VII and many before it, FF IX -- which I haven't played -- uses the old standard ATB system. I've heard that the battles are slow, both that the bars are slow to charge and the animations aren't quick, but this may have been addressed in the Switch version. FF X uses an initiative system where a character's speed and the attack you choose affects who acts, and when, so you can see whose turn is coming up and how different actions affect turn order. It's similar to the Legend of Heroes series in that regard. The combat animations are also pretty quick, so battles feel well paced. FF X-2 returns to the ATB system. In FF XII, you'll be programming your party with "gambits," which sets up a certain degree of automation. Like maybe the #1 priority is to use a Phoenix down if someone dies; the #2 priority is to cure poisoned characters, the #3 is to exploit weakness to fire, etc. You can step in and take control at any time.

In terms of reworking characters and experimenting with builds -- I know the least about IX, but from what I understand, IX gives you the least opportunity to do that. I think you learn new abilities from equipment, so the character that can equip knives will learn all of the knife abilities, etc. I'm not sure if you create different builds by choosing a limited number of abilities from this pool, or if you just have access to all of them as you learn them. FF X has the "sphere grid," which is a giant game board that houses all of the abilities in the game. Each character starts at a certain point and has a default path through the grid, but later in the game you'll get the ability to unlock other pathways, warp around the grid, etc. So you can really customize characters a lot during the late game, if you want. FF XII and its remaster are fairly different from each other in this respect. In the original, there was one "License Board," kind of like the sphere grid, and by the end of the game you could have most of the board unlocked for everyone. The remastered version requires each character to commit to two jobs, which have license boards specific to them (the jobs). There's a lot of room for customization, but not much for retooling, as far as I know. FF X-2 uses a job system that resembles the systems in FF V, or FF Tactics, or Bravely Default.

How important is story to you vs. systems?

I already burned my "write a wall of text" time for the day, but I'd recommend the 10/10-2 package. (As Last Surprise says, start with 10 though.)

I’d pick systems over story I think. Good systems will carry me through a mediocre story more than a good story will carry me through so-so systems. Even moreso if grinding comes into play.

VII did not age well
IX is good but a little dated

I'm really trying to bite my tongue here and remember that FFVII is a really important game to me because I played it when I was 12/13 and this was still my favorite game franchise of all time. The thing is, IX has been given more touching up, but it's still bad looking textures around vaguely humanoid blocks. Then again, even back around '97-'00 I remember being confused why people insisted 8 and 9 looked better when I found VII's simplicity in its blocky approach worked in its favor. Characters have clear silhouettes and unique color schemes that make them easy to recognize. They don't have textures? Oh well, certainly doesn't help the pixelated mess that is Squall being told he's the "best looking guy there".

Whatever. I'm a contrarian. I don't get people.

The thing is, if you're talking raw mechanics, there are individual elements FF9 does that are probably the best of the classic run of games, but it's probably one of the worst with how it handles characters in your party. Until the "third disc" it is choosing your party makeup for you, and ultimately favors certain characters so some will be behind in levels than others. More importantly, you learn skills based on the equipment you have, and if you want to learn all those abilities you'll either need to grind or keep old equipment on for a long time. This means you'll likely have some characters using more recent equipment and possibly be at higher levels while others will be running with outdated equipment in hopes of learning abilities... that, or you just give up on learning moves and abilities, OR insist on grinding. One of the two.

Even before GWJ I've heard people complain about rotating party members rather than sticking with ones you like, but I was able to play through FFVI without grinding while keeping my entire party at roughly the same level. I have not played FFVII in some time, but I guarantee I could probably do the same, barring one or two story moments where certain characters would likely fall behind.

FF9 is a game that exists for the story before the gameplay. It is mostly story. Most of your play time will be cut-scenes and dialogue as opposed to dungeon-crawling and combat. FFVII may have blocky graphics, but it has far more gameplay. It's customization would be limited to what Materia you have equipped, and largely each character is kind of meaningless as a "class" since everyone can use Materia anyway. The only time it matters which characters you have in your party is when their limit break comes in.

I'm sorry to be griping one of my classic gripes, but even without nostalgia goggles, both VII and IX are flawed, just flawed in different ways, and given that I'm going through IX right now and am recalling many of the things that are frustrating, it gets under my skin to imply that it's far better than VII and that VII should be disposed of because it dares to look simplistically blocky.

Regardless, I still don't think you'd be best served with any of the mainline Final Fantasy games given what you are looking for, but XII is probably your best bet.

There. Rant done. Fanboying over. Someone call the Waaahmbulance on me.

Until the "third disc" it is choosing your party makeup for you, and ultimately favors certain characters so some will be behind in levels than others.

Which I actually like! For me, FF9 is best when it's picking your parties for you, because the encounters are consciously designed for the party you have. I felt like I was always well-matched to the content right up until you're free to just build your own party and everyone's levels are all over the map. But honestly, I think the Switch's various cheats would smooth that over nicely.

Antichulius wrote:

I’d pick systems over story I think. Good systems will carry me through a mediocre story more than a good story will carry me through so-so systems. Even moreso if grinding comes into play.

I enjoyed the systems in 12 well enough to play through the whole thing. I found 10 plodding in its story pace and dull in its mechanics. There are dozens of games with more interesting turn-based tactics than FF10.

My only actual experience with Final Fantasy is with the first few hours of the original, and all 3 Final Fantasy Legend games from back in the Gameboy days. Well, that and all the conversations I've been part of but not participating in over the years. Didn't have a console between the Gameboy and the Wii, so there's a long gap for me. But I look very fondly at the turn-based, menu-based text scrolling battles. I enjoyed the grind in those games. I know systems have gotten well beyond that simplistic mode (I've got Octopath Traveler that's pretty close to that in the modern era) and I'm ready to see where the systems have gone. Maybe the influx of FF games on the Switch is just marketing-convincing me that I need one of them. Well, that and the fact that I'm resetting my budget tomorrow so I can kinda fudge any purchase I want to make today

I've always liked the idea of FF games, the sweeping epic, the grinding to become overpowered, the art and vistas throughout. Maybe I like more of the idea than the actual? I think I'm slotting into FF more of the idea of customization or later retooling than actually exists; not sure where I got that idea. I think I just want to try a "real" and "modern-ish" FF game for myself. XII seems like the best bet overall, though IX is maybe more "classic" FF, other than not being able to pick your party,

VII is still probably off my list to buy, though Chris, you made some solid points and I'll likely pull it the copy I have on Steam and take a look.

Antichulius wrote:

I've always liked the idea of FF games, the sweeping epic, the grinding to become overpowered, the art and vistas throughout. Maybe I like more of the idea than the actual? I think I'm slotting into FF more of the idea of customization or later retooling than actually exists; not sure where I got that idea. I think I just want to try a "real" and "modern-ish" FF game for myself. XII seems like the best bet overall, though IX is maybe more "classic" FF, other than not being able to pick your party,

Dropping out of fanboy mode, I don't think there's really a good spot if you want something representative of the entire franchise. FF9 is the closest to being a "greatest hits" of the franchise up to that point, which is probably why it's beloved by a surprising number of people. The character swapping is reminiscent of Final Fantasy IV, as well as the character classes mattering. Learning skills from equipment is the best refinement of Magicite introduced in Final Fantasy VI. The dungeon design is effectively a streamlined version of what Square learned from their prior two games. It takes franchise elements like summons and icons like the Black Mage and turns them into setting and story material.

While I do not think it the best story of the classics, it's the closest thing to being an all-in-one package of what Final Fantasy was up to that point.

But that's the problem. It's classic in every sense of the word, and if you want "the best" of the classics, that's a large argument right there. Mechanically it's probably Final Fantasy V, but V is probably one of the weaker stories.

When it comes to the "modern" games, which I'd consider X, XII, XIII and XV, they're all drastically different from one another with X feeling out of place due to its turn-based nature.

If you want to go through menus in a turn-based system, FFX is your best bet. FFXII is your best bet for customization and, honestly, probably story. The problem is, the franchise has become so inconsistent with itself that there's no way to really pick an entry and say "This will give you everything that Final Fantasy represents". Not adequately, at least. Even though I just spoke of FF9 kind of being a collection of Final Fantasy's disparate classic elements, I'd argue it only does some of those things the best of all those classic games.

Which, viewed from a different perspective, is honestly a benefit of the series. We all have our own personal preferences and favorites. Some of it is due to nostalgia. Some of it is due to other factors. I still love Final Fantasy IV even though it is silly and melodramatic beyond the games that would follow. But none of the other games feel quite like it.

To that end, I have no doubt that there's a Final Fantasy you would like. Which one? I'unno. Depends on expectations versus desire and such.

ccesarano wrote:

So that video I was working on regarding Final Fantasy VI? I finally finished it.

Now to spend three months making a video on Final Fantasy IX!

Enjoyed that lad, this was my first FF game which I had to buy on grey import back then, still the best game as well.

With storytelling, too, FF X and FF XII are both a little odd. In each game, your main character (Tidus and Vaan) are not really the protagonist. The story of X is much more about Yuna's journey, and Tidus is at least in part as a player-avatar, able to represent the idea of not really understanding this strange world he fell into. And, if I recall correctly, XII was written with the idea that Vaan would be the main character, and then retooled partway through the production process to focus more on Basch and Ashe.

I know this question was about the Switch, but -- if you really want a Final Fantasy game that focuses heavily on tweaking character builds, customizing, and retooling, I would strongly recommend Bravely Default (Clock will prefer Bravely Second, which is also very good). These two games are basically the spiritual successors to Final Fantasy V's job system, and polish it to perfection. And the game is another pure turn-based battler, which plays like the original Final Fantasy with modern sensibilities.

As it turns out, the Game Boy FFLs weren't actually Final Fantasy games. They belong in the SaGa franchise, but were titled as Final Fantasies to attract Western gamers. I only recently learned that, myself.

LastSurprise wrote:

And, if I recall correctly, XII was written with the idea that Vaan would be the main character, and then retooled partway through the production process to focus more on Basch and Ashe.

Other way. Vaan was largely added because the brass at Square wanted a protagonist that could appeal to a female audience with his boy band good looks and baby face. It was going on a lot in the PS2 era, hiring famous musicians and celebrities for their likeness in Japanese games.

And then Jean Reno for Onimusha 3, because the Japanese love Jean Reno.

Jeem wrote:

Enjoyed that lad, this was my first FF game which I had to buy on grey import back then, still the best game as well.

Sweet, thanks for checking it out!

ccesarano wrote:
LastSurprise wrote:

And, if I recall correctly, XII was written with the idea that Vaan would be the main character, and then retooled partway through the production process to focus more on Basch and Ashe.

Other way. Vaan was largely added because the brass at Square wanted a protagonist that could appeal to a female audience with his boy band good looks and baby face. It was going on a lot in the PS2 era, hiring famous musicians and celebrities for their likeness in Japanese games.

And it really works out better if you think of Balthier and Ashe as the main characters. Balthier is Han. Ashe is Leia. Fran is Chewie. Bache is Luke. Vaan and Penelo are C-3P0 and R2-D2.

If Luke were more of a side character than Han.