Star Trek: Discovery Catch-All [Spoilers]

Baron Of Hell wrote:

I loved the episode. I really like the tieback to the shorts.

Kiff. Have the boy lay out my formal shorts.

So we're clearly getting a Pike/Spock/Number One spinoff, right? I mean, they're not going to go through the trouble of building that awesome Enterprise set and all those custom uniforms for two episodes? Culber also said that he was transferring to the Enterprise, so he can serve as the CMO. At this point I'll be shocked if it doesn't happen.

I would love that. I'm done with Burnham.

Wild speculation, again: I'm pretty sure the unexploded torpedo is actually loaded with a person trying to get to the Enterprise from Discovery. That person is Spock.

Great episode. Looks like they are jumping the show to the future next season. Maybe some of the haters will have to find something else to cry about.

That episode accomplished absolutely nothing. What a waste of time. I hated it.

er...what? If you don't like the show that is one thing but that is a nonsensical statement for sure.

karmajay wrote:

Great episode. Looks like they are jumping the show to the future next season. Maybe some of the haters will have to find something else to cry about.

That episode accomplished absolutely nothing. What a waste of time. I hated it.

er...what? If you don't like the show that is one thing but that is a nonsensical statement for sure.

It's a bit extreme, but it's not nonsensical. This season has been extremely heavy on the emotional beats, many of which feel unearned. I'm not sure how many of them were unearned in this episode, but there were more of them than there were plot advancements. Sometimes this happens in arc seasons, and I feel like the criticism of this most recent episode would probably be less harsh if the season could be binged. But, CBS wants to pretend this is still traditional television and not a streaming service, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess you kinda have to pretend that when your streaming service really doesn't have anything else of value to sell.

I hope this is the first "part" and not first "half" of the finale. Next week's episode is going to need to be a good bit longer to get us to a resolution. Aside from the weighing this episode heavy on the emotional moments and light on the plot advancement, there is still SO much unanswered that has to be dealt with. If it's not at least 90 minutes I don't know how we get there in a way that feels satisfactory. If it is typical length, I'm worried we'll have another season ender like season 1, where it feels like someone pressed the fast-forward button on the Klingon war.

karmajay wrote:
That episode accomplished absolutely nothing. What a waste of time. I hated it.

er...what? If you don't like the show that is one thing but that is a nonsensical statement for sure.

I actually quite liked the show up until 1-2 episodes ago. You can even go back over the last several pages and confirm it. Can we agree that I am entitled to my own opinion on it without being told I'm nonsensical? It's not a lot of fun being on the receiving end of a condescending post like that. As far as I can see my post was just as informative as yours. But I'll indulge you and expand a bit on why I did not enjoy this episode:

The plot did not move forward in this episode. We are pretty much where we left of last week. We saw a lot of talk among characters we still don't know much about (Can anyone here easily name all of the bridge crew members of the Discovery?) and whose relationsships are still not fleshed out.

Apparently after just 1½ seasons the entire crew have become so close that they are willing to give up their future to join Burnham on the condemned Discovery. And yet the show has only superficially explored the relationships of a few of the crew members. I'm just not convinced yet. Would you have been convinced of something similar after 1½ seasons of TNG or DS9? I wouldn't. You need to build up to it over many seasons.

Also Sarek is able to 'feel' Burnham from Vulcan and then get on a shuttle with Samantha and intercept the Discovery. They then have a little talk and then leave again on a shuttle. How is all of this possible when they are trying to outrun Control?

Tyler on the other hand does not want to sacrifice himself for Burnham because 'there needs to be a guy on the inside'. Really? That's one of the relationships that they have actually invested in throughout the show.

Pike (a character I generally love btw) has been on the ship for ½ a season but needs to spend 6 out of the last 8 minutes before Control arrives having a speech on the life changing experience of serving on the ship. Nope, not buying it. Seems to me there would be more urgent things to address as captain.

So there you have it. My subjective opinion on an episode of a tv-show posted to the internet.

They aren't really "sacrificing" themselves they are just continuing the mission in a future time period. Kind of like they are "going someplace they have not going before", right? Also, with a shortened story filled season isn't it ok to assume that these bridge crew that have spent hundreds of in world time together have more complex feelings then you, the viewer?

Tyler makes a good point on why he is staying in the present time period.

Yeah absolutely in DS9 and TNG the main characters do more trusting then we see on screen. That's just the way it is.

Maybe the main plot did not move forward a bunch ( although we did find out the AI is not going to allow itself to be destroyed which is maybe why we see it left in a nebula for 1000 years, we saw some cool engineering work to built another suit, etc) but we got a lot of character exposition between the crew.

I apologize for my previous post.

Thought about it more over the weekend and want to make a more broad apology to people that read this thread. I should not have got so passive aggressive in this thread. Posting negative opinions does not deserve the comments I made above. I guess from another type of media I enjoy where there are too many bad faith opinions I let it carry over into this thread on this site where the situation is not the same. I hope people will continue to post their opinions about the show freely. Thanks for your time.

Djinn wrote:

So we're clearly getting a Pike/Spock/Number One spinoff, right?

So one show about Pike's Enterprise in the current time-period? And another about Discovery in the distant future?

Please and thank you. I doubt it'll happen, but only because it sounds too good to be true.

jbavon wrote:

Wild speculation, again: I'm pretty sure the unexploded torpedo is actually loaded with a person trying to get to the Enterprise from Discovery. That person is Spock.

That makes more sense than anything I came up with. Would Spock first need to end up on a Control ship? The flash-forwards didn't suggest that the torpedo had come from Discovery, and I feel like they'd know if it had.

How long till the next episode??

There's a petition gathering steam to make a Pike and Co. spin off show. I'm sure someone at CBS is thinking about it, both in terms of popularity and that the work of casting, wardrobe, and some of the sets has already been taken care of. As for Spock...

Spoiler: Someone leaked a something.

The Star Trek Cruise website has a promotion image of Ethan Peck as Spock, clean shaven and in uniform. Got to be careful what you send out to people these days.

Rat Boy wrote:

There's a petition gathering steam to make a Pike and Co. spin off show. I'm sure someone at CBS is thinking about it, both in terms of popularity and that the work of casting, wardrobe, and some of the sets has already been taken care of.

I'm starting to believe the theory that the rumored/planned Section 31 show (which I don't think there's a single Trek fan on the internet asking for such a series) is a cover for a Christopher Pike-helmed pre-Kirk Enterprise series.

Whatever is going on, we may just find out Thursday night.

T-Prime wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:

There's a petition gathering steam to make a Pike and Co. spin off show. I'm sure someone at CBS is thinking about it, both in terms of popularity and that the work of casting, wardrobe, and some of the sets has already been taken care of.

I'm starting to believe the theory that the rumored/planned Section 31 show (which I don't think there's a single Trek fan on the internet asking for such a series) is a cover for a Christopher Pike-helmed pre-Kirk Enterprise series.

Whatever is going on, we may just find out Thursday night.

I doubt it, replacing a non white female lead as bad ass as Michelle Yeoh with a white male lead (granted a good one) would be a terrible idea. I'm sure the racists, sexists and the more overly negative discovery people would love the idea. And I'm not suggesting that all the hate for discovery is due to racists and sexists just that there is good number of them that can't get past not having a white male to be the center of a trek show and either purposely or unthinkingly put out negative stuff that makes zero sense. Of coarse it is possible for racists and sexist to point out real problems also.

Anyway as far as I know 31, discovery and the cartoon are all confirmed to air. Also wouldn't mind seeing a Pike show.

I love Pike and his 1st officer and the look of Enterprise BUT weren't a lot of people not happy with a prequel to other Trek? Even if the TOS look is there how would would they get a series with the TOS Enterprise that would not mess with canon?

Also, Pike says when they are about to destroy the Disco that "We'll never see another ship like her". Does this clarify that maybe the spore drive plans were locked away/deleted/whatever and the fed is NOT building more of these ships? (Even though at one point some type of plan was sent to some secret shipyards)

I’m okay with updating the look of the tech. As long as the major bits like transporters, phasers, communicators, etc follow the same rules it works for me.

It’s the major deviations like spore drives, Section 31, and (please don’t be) the Borg that irk me.

It’s why I generally don’t like prequels. Most of the time instead of thinking, “so that's how it happened” I'm thinking thinking, “wait, what?”

I’m very curious how the tech of the Picard show will look. I’m also very nervous about this show.

They did it.

Spoiler:

In about two minutes of dialogue at the end of the season, they completely wrote away:
- Why Discovery isn't a ship known in the TOS/TNG era
- Why Spock and his family never mentions his adoptive sister, Michael Burnham
- Why the spore drive doesn't exist in the TOS/TNG era
- Why Section 31 is unknown and near mythical by the time of DS9

And I am absolutely living for it.

With so many showrunner changes over just two seasons, it's very apparent that whatever story arcs initial showrunner Bryan Fuller planned just weren't going to fit well into the existing Trek universe (spore drive, Klingon war, mirror universe, Section 31). I definitely noticed this at the end of Season 1, with loose ends tied up in a very rushed way.

Basically, the showrunners replacing Fuller were given a rocky foundation. I feel like season 2 had a goal to shore up that foundation, and to get us to where we are now at the end of the season.

I'll admit, the season finale is a sort of deus ex machina reset button, but with a prequel series bound by 50 years of established canon, and with the beginning of the series containing plot points that break canon, I really think the writers this season did the absolute best with what they were given. They probably could've drawn out another season to explain those points like why the spore drive doesn't exist, but they said f- it, and went with a wormhole to the future.

Final thought: that was the most intense space battle we've seen in all of Star Trek.

Season 3 will be a clean slate. That's what excites me the most.

Spoiler:

Now I have to complain that this show is kowtowing to the fans instead of following through on any artistic or creative vision. This show sucks!

I can't wait to (hate?) watch this episode. I'll post thoughts afterward.

I would not call it "mind-blowing" like the cast did. I was hoping for some serious twists. Instead, I got largely what could be predicted from the last episode.

I will say I am extremely happy that...

Spoiler:

Control is not the Borg origin story.

When do the DOT-7 radio-controlled replicas go on sale?

Hmmm... Brief comments:

- A Star Trek battle like no other. I did not enjoy it but that's what the kids want these days I guess. For me Star Trek battles have always been about capitol ships duking it out. And never about a zillion little shuttles/drones.

- They did the reset and they handled it without eloquence.

- I like Spock, Pike, Number 1 and the Enterprise. But I guess I'm never getting any more of that. Makes me sad.

- I'm not looking forward to trek 950 years in the future if that is the what the next season is about. Because that series will have a complete disconnect with the Trek universe we know and love. And oh yeah, we've already had a Trek show about a single ship trapped in the undiscovered country (Voyager).

- I liked the doctor's moment while Stamets was injured.

- I can't quite remember how Tyler called in the infantry and got on to a cloaked Klingon ship. Wasn't he on the Discovery at the end of the last episode? The Kaminar joining in was equally silly and not really worthwhile for the overall plot.

- A small hope that next season won't have an overambitious singular story/theme that carries through to each and every episode.

And last but not least: Control was disabled and Leland was dead before they went through the wormhole. Why did they not stop?

jbavon wrote:

And last but not least: Control was disabled and Leland was dead before they went through the wormhole. Why did they not stop?

I thought it was for the same reason the crew of the Enterprise and Spock said they were destroyed. Discovery itself was considered a danger to sentient life at that time. They wanted no one looking for them, trying to replicate any of the technology, or getting their hands on the data.

jbavon wrote:

I can't quite remember how Tyler called in the infantry and got on to a cloaked Klingon ship. Wasn't he on the Discovery at the end of the last episode?

Remember his exchange with Pike about exactly to which degree Pike now trusts him, and that he was going to duck out before the shooting started? Of course this is stuff you could clear up on your own by rewatching and paying closer attention when they actually answer everything you've asked about.

You mentioned that you don't "buy" the degree of closeness between the characters after just a season and a half, but this is the flip side to your frustration that seemingly nothing happened in part one. Coupled with your not liking the battle in part two, maybe this just isn't a show for you.

I was like 90% sure that it would turn out Stamets was dying and Culber's return was a hallucination.

(edit) Also, I'm still pretty sure it's going to turn out that Georgiou used the transporter at the last moment.

CaptainCrowbar wrote:

(edit) Also, I'm still pretty sure it's going to turn out that Georgiou used the transporter at the last moment.

I don't think so - they made a big deal about shields needing to be up before they could pass through the wormhole.

Also, did anyone else notice that they used the same visual effect style employed in The Motion Picture when they entered the wormhole?

Sharing my own take as a way to exhale after finishing the series yesterday:

I've always loved science fiction's ability to project aspects of humanity into the future and have them reflect back at ourselves. It's why the aptly named Black Mirror works so well for me. One of the central themes Star Trek has always projected has been about our growing toward being the best version of ourselves possible while still retaining our fallibility.

Discovery packs so much of that into its episodes that I find it a breathtakingly beautiful show even as I wonder how the crew can endure more than a few episodes of material without turning into a quivering mass of catatonic jello. It doesn't have time to linger long on anything as it shows important little snippets of everyone's lives and weaves them into the tapestry of a crew's story. It strives to give each character an arc within that story, and sometimes it's up to the viewer to fill in the gaps as it jumps around. I felt there were enough breadcrumbs to do so in a satisfying way (well... more than merely satisfying as most episodes hit me in the emotions). However, given the always frantic pace I think it's understandable if it fell flat or simply didn't give enough time to absorb/think for some folks.

I'll need more time for it to settle, but right now this feels like my favorite Star Trek. I think it distills the essence of what I love about that universe and its stories and wastes no time in delivering it.

LouZiffer wrote:
jbavon wrote:

And last but not least: Control was disabled and Leland was dead before they went through the wormhole. Why did they not stop?

I thought it was for the same reason the crew of the Enterprise and Spock said they were destroyed. Discovery itself was considered a danger to sentient life at that time. They wanted no one looking for them, trying to replicate any of the technology, or getting their hands on the data.

Leland was disabled which was a "local" version of Control that was controlling the ships and stuff. "Control" is still around in that present and if Disco stayed there would still be a danger.

Also in these short seasons there just is not a ton of room for just filler.

jbavon wrote:

- I'm not looking forward to trek 950 years in the future if that is the what the next season is about. Because that series will have a complete disconnect with the Trek universe we know and love. And oh yeah, we've already had a Trek show about a single ship trapped in the undiscovered country (Voyager).

Spoiler:

On the contrary, Discovery displaced itself in time, not space. When Season 3 begins, we should find it in 33rd century Federation Space. I think they did a rather neat job of cleaning up all the existing and even greater, impending canon conflicts while providing the means to move her story forward within an all new Trek era.

I've been pretty meh on Discovery in some ways. I rather enjoyed the first season, despite all the stuff they changed, but while I enjoyed the minute-to-minute shot sequences this time, I didn't feel like the show cohered as well as it should have. It felt rather scattershot and choppy, perhaps the result of different writing styles, maybe?

And by the end of the season, I was getting awful tired of Burnham. She's a fine actress and the character is good, but she's kind of like Kirk in that she's in every important scene. If someone's doing something dangerous, it will be Burnham.

Tilly's a fun character, and the actress is perfectly cast. She's just brilliant at that role. Kudos to the casting director for finding her. They also nailed Pike, got exactly the right guy. Last season's captain was always a little off.

I guess I'd just like to see the supporting actors carrying a little more of the load, rather than so much Burnham. And someone upthread was pointing out that the helmswoman gets almost no time at all, yet appears to be an interesting character. Giving her more to do would be nice.

I'm not a big fan, however, of either Tyler or Giorgio. They just don't feel right to me. I dunno what it is with Tyler, exactly, but Yeoh's villain portrayal was kind of cartoonish. It's probably not her fault, the character's probably just written badly, but I've never been convinced by her after the Big Switch. She was fine as the mentor captain, but the alternate-universe Giorgio (edit; actually "Georgiou", I looked it up just now) ... I dunno, I just don't buy the character, and I don't buy the way Starfleet is promoting her, and I just have no suspension of disbelief around her at all. IMO, she's the worst writing problem that show has. It's kind of a dumpster fire that stinks up everything around it.

vypre wrote:

On the contrary, Discovery displaced itself in time, not space. When Season 3 begins, we should find it in 33rd century Federation Space. I think they did a rather neat job of cleaning up all the existing and even greater, impending canon conflicts while providing the means to move her story forward within an all new Trek era.

I don't really think I could imagine the Federation still being around 950 years in the future or it being anything like the current Federation (or Trek universe that we know and love). It is the equivalent of going from 1500 AD to 2300 AD in human advances. So they might as well have dumped them in the Delta quadrant like Voyager. But I'll gladly admit that I'm a bit conservative when it comes to Trek and that I personally want more from the TOS, TNG and DS9 timelines than anything else. I'm not really asking for a re-boot or re-imagining of the Trek universe made by a new generation of Hollywood writers without any guidance from the people involved with previous Trek shows. But maybe I am in the minority?

And I also don't see how they can make the Discovery anything but hopelessly obsolete in that future timeframe. A 1500 AD caravel going up against the NCC-1701-D would be the most accurate comparison

Kurrelgyre wrote:

Remember his exchange with Pike about exactly to which degree Pike now trusts him, and that he was going to duck out before the shooting started? Of course this is stuff you could clear up on your own by rewatching and paying closer attention when they actually answer everything you've asked about.

They made a big issue out of the fact that none of Starfleet's ships could possibly help them. But all along they had countless extra shuttles on board and could just have sent one off to get some help like Tyler did with the Klingons? And Tyler didn't even have any guarantee they would help. It doesn't make any sense. And all they managed to do was copy the DS9 scene where the Klingons also came to the rescue. DS9 did it better!

LouZiffer wrote:

I thought it was for the same reason the crew of the Enterprise and Spock said they were destroyed. Discovery itself was considered a danger to sentient life at that time. They wanted no one looking for them, trying to replicate any of the technology, or getting their hands on the data.

Doesn't seem very star trekky to send inevitable technological advances 950 years into the future where the possibility of controlling the information is even more hopeless. I have a Picard monologue in my head telling us to not be afraid of the future and what it might or might not bring...

TLDR: It's just not a convincing (Trek) show for me. I'll still watch along next season but I'm having a lot more fun watching TNG right now.

jbavon wrote:
vypre wrote:

On the contrary, Discovery displaced itself in time, not space. When Season 3 begins, we should find it in 33rd century Federation Space. I think they did a rather neat job of cleaning up all the existing and even greater, impending canon conflicts while providing the means to move her story forward within an all new Trek era.

I don't really think I could imagine the Federation still being around 950 years in the future or it being anything like the current Federation (or Trek universe that we know and love). It is the equivalent of going from 1500 AD to 2300 AD in human advances. So they might as well have dumped them in the Delta quadrant like Voyager. But I'll gladly admit that I'm a bit conservative when it comes to Trek and that I personally want more from the TOS, TNG and DS9 timelines than anything else. I'm not really asking for a re-boot or re-imagining of the Trek universe made by a new generation of Hollywood writers without any guidance from the people involved with previous Trek shows. But maybe I am in the minority?

And I also don't see how they can make the Discovery anything but hopelessly obsolete in that future timeframe. A 1500 AD caravel going up against the NCC-1701-D would be the most accurate comparison

It's already happened. There are many existing canon references and episodes detailing events up to the 31st century and far, FAR beyond, if you include the comic books (which have also been determined to be canon). As far as Discovery is concerned, Burnham's mom is already in the 32nd century. As it stands now, the Federation still exists as far forward as the 123rd (12,263 AD) century.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki...

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/...

As far as obsolescence, given the Discovery's status following the last episode in Season 2, it's quite possible the Spore Drive will bring a new technology to the 33rd century and/or be retrofitted with 33rd century technology. On the other hand, it's possible the current Discovery will get scrapped in entirety - especially given it's current battle damage - and replaced by a Discovery-B or something of that nature. Who knows?

Regardless, I get what you're saying. I have had and continue to have certain issues with Discovery myself. I absolutely hated the way they physically re-imagined the Klingons, but Season 2 revealed how the shaved heads was a war ritual and the addition of hair brought them closer to the Klingons of TNG/Voyager/DSN era.

I was also having issues with a 3rd iteration of Spock. I would still say I like Zachary Quinto's Spock better (say what you will about the recent Trek movies' writing, but I absolutely love the casting), but I'm more at ease with Ethan Peck following Season 2's conclusion when they finally ditched the beard. It also helped that I did a bit of research to find Ethan Peck spent time with Nimoy's family to research Spock's character and the man who played him for so many decades. It's not quite the same as Nimoy personally "handing the reins" to Quinto, but it shows he understands the depth of the character and the importance of getting it right for the fans.

They made a big issue out of the fact that none of Starfleet's ships could possibly help them. But all along they had countless extra shuttles on board and could just have sent one off to get some help like Tyler did with the Klingons? And Tyler didn't even have any guarantee they would help. It doesn't make any sense. And all they managed to do was copy the DS9 scene where the Klingons also came to the rescue. DS9 did it better!

It's actually worse than that. Apparently, Sarek's Katra-phone into Burnham's head allowed him and Amanda to show up at some point, say Hi and Bye, and then go back to the Federation... Couldn't Sarek drop a line to, I dunno, 60 or so ships and say, "Hey, go help them out or, you know, all life could end up extinguished."