Gamers that fight - Martial Arts catch-all

Paleocon wrote:
maverickz wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Watch judo

They outlawed leg locks decades ago!

Lol. I guess you’re stuck with mma and catch wrestling then.

Look up US combat wrestling, if you don't already know about it. Lots of take downs, lots of submissions, no closed guard allowed. I've been loving watching it.

Knightsabre wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
maverickz wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Watch judo

They outlawed leg locks decades ago!

Lol. I guess you’re stuck with mma and catch wrestling then.

Look up US combat wrestling, if you don't already know about it. Lots of take downs, lots of submissions, no closed guard allowed. I've been loving watching it.

I'll check that out. There's a form of competition that's called Combat Jiujitsu, which allows open hand strikes and slaps. It's kind of weird.

maverickz wrote:

I'll check that out. There's a form of competition that's called Combat Jiujitsu, which allows open hand strikes and slaps. It's kind of weird.

I watched that a bit - thought it was odd at first but its kind of growing on me. Seems like it keeps competitors honest without the danger of punches and elbows.

I did and saw a little combat jiujitsu, back in the 90's, when I was doing stand-up JJ. The intent was to give you something that was more real world than traditional stand-up. But it kind of taught you where the entries to punchy-kicky land were, but never really opened the doors.

It did have a lot of "when you grab the arm to start a throw, add in a fist or an elbow if your arm is moving past their head". That sort of opportunistic stuff. I think that's a good idea for practicality, but probably not for regular practice unless you like getting slapped.

I'm assuming the BJJ version of this is the same philosophy - reduce "gaming the system" by inserting slaps and light strikes into the empty spaces, where possible, in the "allowed" moves. I doubt it eliminates everything, though, and it seems in some ways like a half-assed move towards MMA-lite. Will it really fix the gaming problems, or just change the gaming solution space to something else?

Again, I think the whole "gaming" issue is a trip down an unending rabbit hole. The chase after "reality" is no longer a useful one after athletes have achieved a level of skill and athleticism that makes the entire exercise a silly one. These athletes have already transcended what a meaningful "real world" fight looks like and so exploitation of the limits of simulation are simply unavoidable.

Interesting perspective. It hearkens back to the idea that most training should be aimed at the "average" skill level of an expected opponent.

Robear wrote:

Interesting perspective. It hearkens back to the idea that most training should be aimed at the "average" skill level of an expected opponent.

Yup. And depending on the objective, that is not a bad way to go. If the objective is "self defense", your time and effort is probably best spent with learning high percentage responses to really common attacks. It is pretty funny how often I hear folks, for instance, try to find "self defense" justification for crazy sh*t like Amanari rolls or cross Ashigorami heel hooks. That sh*t will never come up in a real self defense situation. It is just fancy stuff you are using on someone who has already transcended "self defense".

I have seen this exercise happen in so many sports over and over again. Folks complain that IPSC shooting is no longer "realistic" because of the low recoil ammo and $5000 race guns. NASCAR should change its name because there is nothing "stock" about a "stock car". Rock climbing is just spandex clad gymnasts blasting from plastic hold to plastic hold. The list is, literally, endless. And in none of these examples would a rational person think that the progenitor stand a chance in a contest with the modern exponent. JJ Racaza would absolutely SMOKE Doc Holliday. Denny Hamlin would destroy any bootlegger. Steph Davis or Lynn Hill would make Reinhold Messner look like an amateur wearing roller skates and boxing gloves. And if it were possible to go back in time, I would bet my house on it that Demetrius Johnson would absolutely dominate the f*ck out of Ip Man or Wong Fei Hung in a "real fight".

The question of "self-defense <----> sport" is not a yes or no type of question, it is a continuum. A continuum of applicability to the "self-defense" question, which is ambiguous on its own. As an example, kyokushin karate and taekwondo are essentially the same martial art in terms of most of the techniques, but the training methods make one better suited for "self defense" than the other.

In a similar way, yes "self-defense" oriented BJJ is not a full on MMA fight or a self-defense scenario, but it is closer to it than "sport" BJJ. And I'm not convinced that one should just accept the changes leading to sport BJJ without understanding the impact that causes to the art as a whole. I'm not against the sport, but I don't want the efficacy of the art that developed in an MMA context to lose those parts.

Week 3 of the rib injury.

Crankiness rising.

Paleocon wrote:

Week 3 of the rib injury.

Crankiness rising.

I'm on month two of my hiatus. I've begun trying to armlock myself while sitting in my office chair.

Pffft... That's just stretching, Mav.

Robear wrote:

Pffft... That's just stretching, Mav.

Should I not tap? I feel like I should tap, it hurts. Is it ok to tap while stretching? I've forgotten who the grapple works.

The last time I was down in NC, a few of us old men were talking about how our wives always seem to get around to the "you do too much jiu jitsu" conversation. Some of the phrases we had all heard were:

"You're really married to jiu jitsu"
"What's wrong with only going once or twice a week"
"Normal people don't go four or five times a week"
"I wish you could be this devoted to me instead"

Sigh.

Paleocon wrote:

The last time I was down in NC, a few of us old men were talking about how our wives always seem to get around to the "you do too much jiu jitsu" conversation. Some of the phrases we had all heard were:

"You're really married to jiu jitsu"
"What's wrong with only going once or twice a week"
"Normal people don't go four or five times a week"
"I wish you could be this devoted to me instead"

Sigh.

I mean, they might be right. I get it with signing the kids up for activities.

Paleocon wrote:

The last time I was down in NC, a few of us old men were talking about how our wives always seem to get around to the "you do too much jiu jitsu" conversation. Some of the phrases we had all heard were:

"You're really married to jiu jitsu"
"What's wrong with only going once or twice a week"
"Normal people don't go four or five times a week"
"I wish you could be this devoted to me instead"

Sigh.

You know. One advantage I had with having already been heavily invested in grappling when I met my wife, the idea that it came as a package deal was accepted. We had a talk, several, about the importance of it in my life, and she was very receptive to it. I think in that sense I got lucky. With exceptions for children and responsibilities.

maverikz wrote:

Should I not tap? I feel like I should tap, it hurts. Is it ok to tap while stretching? I've forgotten who the grapple works.

I think stretching is partly to teach your body a lesson. You might have to wait it out.

Sad. I wonder how common that same story is in MMA.

Paleocon wrote:

Sad. I wonder how common that same story is in MMA.

I imagine quite often. The UFC, and other organizations, do not do much to take care of their fighters. And calling them "their fighters" is confusing, they are generally considered independent contractors, with all the downsides of that. I wish they did more for their, what should be, employees.

And now, Georges St. Pierre doing karate kata.

Some days my injuries act up and I wonder why I'm doing this stuff. I got a pinched nerve (between C6 and C7) several years ago when an over-excited young blue belt went for an armbar too hard and smashed my head against my shoulder. After some PT and time it was alright.

A few days ago it started acting up, and I forgot how bad it can get. Damn near brings me to tears. And how can my arm be both numb and in maddening pain at the same time.

I am down in NC for the week and working out at my old school. Some of my old friends have mentioned that my pressure game has really improved. I told them it was because my new school is mostly young knuckleheads who try to beat you with speed and athleticism so I had to develop a game that slowed things down. I hadn't realized how much it had changed until I came back here.

Wait til you see yourself in another year.

I've been off the mat for two weeks now due to my pinched nerve acting up. I may be going a little nutty.

I was rolling with the energetic Russians today. Pretty much just decided to roll with the explosive wave of strength and power until they gassed out and finished with almost insultingly simple submissions. I think I got the bread cutter choke 3 times tonight.

I was talking with my old coach today about how some schools are a lot more into the whole ritual and made up “traditions” than others. We concluded that so much of martial arts is just straight up cosplay.

Paleocon wrote:

I was talking with my old coach today about how some schools are a lot more into the whole ritual and made up “traditions” than others. We concluded that so much of martial arts is just straight up cosplay.

Funny you mention that, I had a similar conversation with a friend where we both realized how awkward it is to call the gi a uniform. It's basically a costume. But a useful one.

maverickz wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I was talking with my old coach today about how some schools are a lot more into the whole ritual and made up “traditions” than others. We concluded that so much of martial arts is just straight up cosplay.

Funny you mention that, I had a similar conversation with a friend where we both realized how awkward it is to call the gi a uniform. It's basically a costume. But a useful one.

I think it certainly can be a costume. I think that largely depends on how much "tradition" and mysticism you imbue it with. My take on it is that it is more like football shoulder pads than it is Power Rangers stuff. I do think it ventures into the latter when the white gi mafia is enforcing things. And the whole belt ranking thing can get into that territory too if taken too seriously. If belt ranking is used as a shorthand for force/skill expectations (okay, don't feel bad heel hooking that blue belt), great. If it is used as some kind of "respeck mah authoritai" bullsh*t, it is cosplay.

I'm in total agreement with you. Especially about the belt rank thing. I'm a grown adult, as are the people I train with, that often gets lost in the whole hierarchy aspect of it. It all gets very confusing because of how the whole system is arranged. You're both a client and a kind of apprentice. Too many people lean closer to the latter. I prefer to consider the relationship as more the former.

I actually had someone raise their voice at me, a higher belt, and we had to have a little talk about how adults don't speak to each other like that. Some people get really wrapped up in the traditional hierarchy, unfortunately.

I have been through enough arts to realize the performance of it all, which I don't are for.

Most of this, I think, if not all of it, descends from the centuries old nature of martial arts as military training. This was present in Chinese styles, but sort of atrophied into a master-student respect thing after the first decade or three of the 20th century put an end to the ties between “schools” and the military. Japanese styles, however, it was tied deeply into the militaristic elements of culture that prevailed into the 1940’s, and still exists in the right-wing political parties, which are often tied to traditional Japanese martial arts (although it’s important to note that that relationship is not reciprocal). And likewise, Korean martial arts are deeply tied to their culture and especially folk history, and still play a prominent role in military training.

My hypothesis is that the closer an art or style is to a direct relationship to the organized military, in its history, the more hierarchical it will be. This even applies outside the country of origin; I’ve seen first hand the extreme patriotism (flag rituals and symbols, for example) and strong training in obedience and mass ritual (for what, again?) that is marketed in the US as “instilling discipline and strength!”). And yet, we don’t see anything like that in high school wrestling or boxing gyms or fencing salons, all solidly “Western” arts that have not been involved in the training of soldiers (as schools, or by selection of teachers to design curricula and lead troops) or in the development of the military for, well, centuries if not millenia.

Compare this to Indonesian and Phillipino martial arts, where you are basically either a student or a teacher (as far as I have experienced). They are farther from having martial arts tied to a government military, if they ever did in recent history. And they are a lot less informal about hierarchy, but just as serious about learning.

So to me, it’s cultural, and correlates strongly to the time since martial arts schools played a direct role in training, leading and developing doctrine for troops, and how that is seen as a national cultural value.