Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice Catch-All

Higgledy wrote:

Also I have the impression that you can use certain areas to build up your levels which can help a lot.

Well, there are no "levels" that I'm aware of. You do have skill trees, and it looks like there are a few things that can be improved with enemy grinding (not sure how that works yet... does resting at those statues restore all the enemies, ala souls?).

I'm looking forward to finding out more about the rpg-esque systems, since I don't know if I can rely on skill to get through a game anymore.

Launch Trailer.

So, when I played Darksiders 3, Clock made it very apparent that my actual knowledge of Dark Souls is lacking. As a result, when I see these trailers, all I can see in regards to the gameplay is something more akin to Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden fused together, but with an emphasis on one-on-one battles than fighting hordes of enemies. It doesn't at all fit what I've come to expect watching the slower paces of Dark Souls fights, or what little of Dark Souls I've watched.

Which has me wondering why it is people keep hammering on about Dark Souls. Is it strictly because that's the only thing any of you know From Software for, and therefore that's the only thing you've come to expect? Because if that's the case, I find that sort of thinking damaging to a company. Once upon a time Capcom could make Mega Man, Street Fighter, and Breath of Fire games side-by-side and no one complained about the other franchises not being enough like the others. It's healthy for a studio and its creators to create a variety of game types, to stretch their creative muscles, and not be locked into making the same thing over and over.

Or is it simply that the Dark Souls crowd is less genre-savvy with action games, and therefore you don't have any other comparison points to base it on?

I probably shouldn't get so frustrated about it, but every trailer and gameplay video I see of Sekiro suggests only two similarities to Dark Souls: challenging combat and intricate boss fights. Otherwise, it looks like a faster paced action game that naturally will play and feel very different to the slower, methodical pace of a Dark Souls. I don't need genre-savvy to be able to tell that even from the original trailer. So what is it that keeps people coming back and saying "I hope it's more like Dark Souls in X, Y, and Z features"? Have you just no experience with different types of action games? Do you just want From to keep pumping out one kind of experience over and over? And if it turns out Sekiro is very, very different from Dark Souls, will you view the game as "bad" or simply accept that it's not that kind of game you know you like?

Ooor... You could just not know enough about Dark Souls to see the similarities.

I'm familiar enough with the action games you're referring to here to be comfortable saying that Sekiro looks more like Dark Souls in its gameplay than something like Devil May Cry.

ccesarano wrote:

I probably shouldn't get so frustrated about it, but every trailer and gameplay video I see of Sekiro suggests only two similarities to Dark Souls: challenging combat and intricate boss fights. Otherwise, it looks like a faster paced action game that naturally will play and feel very different to the slower, methodical pace of a Dark Souls. I don't need genre-savvy to be able to tell that even from the original trailer. So what is it that keeps people coming back and saying "I hope it's more like Dark Souls in X, Y, and Z features"? Have you just no experience with different types of action games? Do you just want From to keep pumping out one kind of experience over and over? And if it turns out Sekiro is very, very different from Dark Souls, will you view the game as "bad" or simply accept that it's not that kind of game you know you like?

I’ll view it as bad for me Maybe.
I like Dark Souls exactly because it isn’t really a fast-paced action game.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

I'm familiar enough with the action games you're referring to here to be comfortable saying that Sekiro looks more like Dark Souls in its gameplay than something like Devil May Cry.

In what way would that be? Because so many of the reactions here, I'd say majority, are either hoping it has Dark Souls features or let down that it isn't Dark Souls enough once more information is revealed. I am sincerely curious, then, what remains Dark Souls in nature.

I don't mean to be sounding confrontational either, in case I am. I'm sincerely curious. For me, the reason I bring up DMC is the grapple-arm and the speed of it, while I bring up Ninja Gaiden due to how some of the attacks work. Neither is a perfect comparison, but I see those more in the speed of combat represented. The only thing I can think of is looking for an opening in the enemy's attack, which Dark Souls most certainly did not invent.

I'd say that Sekiro reminds me more of Bloodborne (which you haven't played, right?) than of Dark Souls, although since those games are from the same team, I think of them as being part of the same series. A lot of the similarity I see is in the weight, feel, and pace of the combat. Granted, I'm not a top-level character action player by any means, but the core concepts of combo juggling and acrobatic attacking just don't seem to apply here.

This game also seems to use literally some of the same animations as the Souls games, which I think adds to the similar look and feel. There are also non-mechanical elements like the particular lighting and environmental design, character elements, and narrative style that the Souls games are known for.

I've been the first to laugh at the "everything is Dark Souls" crowd, but I don't think they're off-base here, and it's more than just lack of familiarity with the developer's other work or the broader genre of character action games.

I don’t think anyone is saying Dark Souls invented its style of combat. Just one of the few using it these days.

Other than the speed, Souls is also about deliberate attacks and defense to me. Each input is a response to something. That is undoubtedly also true in the fast-paced games, they just move so fast that to me they feel like button-mashing. Which is then often underscored by having some kind of combo-count you want to increase. In those games it is more about keeping up attacks at all time, less about each individual attack serving a deliberate purpose. If that makes any sense.

Based on what I’ve seen of Sekiro it still feels somewhat like Souls in this regard. But maybe it won’t be. I’m trying not to watch too much of it. FROM has earned a blind faith purchase. Even if a lot of what I hear about the game makes me worried.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Granted, I'm not a top-level character action player by any means, but the core concepts of combo juggling and acrobatic attacking just don't seem to apply here.

Interesting. I guess that means my own comparisons are off the common perception of genre as well, because for me it's less about the very specifics and more about the speed and sense of aggression. Even when you're being defensive, you're not being defensive for very long. So when I see the Sekiro gameplay, while there's still emphasis on being defensive, it feels faster and more aggressive.

Which may be where the Bloodborne comparison comes in. I still need to find time to give that game a try, and the only reason I am still interested is because it's more aggressive. At least, based on what I've heard.

There are also non-mechanical elements like the particular lighting and environmental design, character elements, and narrative style that the Souls games are known for.

Oddly enough, the bright colors and constant daylight are precisely one of the reasons I feel like they're going for something different. Despite starting out as a Tenchu reboot/sequel/seboot, it's a game where you play as a ninja in broad daylight as opposed to night time. What does that mean? I dunno. I just feel like the stature and size of the bosses – which I do acknowledge as being in the style of From/Miyazaki – are hardly indicative of how the game will play, mechanically.

In those games it is more about keeping up attacks at all time, less about each individual attack serving a deliberate purpose. If that makes any sense.

Between Clock bringing up combo juggling and this, I think I understand what people see as the difference. To me, I've gotten familiar enough with some of these games that the actions I take are deliberate, though I'm hardly top-tier character action either. However, I think Dark Souls is far more about being on the defensive, which means for a lot of players it is more about waiting for that decisive opening. To put it another way, Dark Souls sort of reverses roles, as in Bayonetta or DMC you're the one that needs to be careful of your openings while being on the offensive. That's going to change approach to combat a lot.

I still think Sekiro looks more aggressive, even compared to what Bloodborne footage I've seen, but I think I better understand what others are seeing since the trailers still emphasize that defensive. We see at least two ways to block and at least two or three ways to dodge attacks in that trailer alone, meaning you have five potential defensive options.

I think that's all the contrarianism outta me. I'll be pre-ordering the game when I get paid on Friday, and I have no doubts I'll have DMC5 finished by then, so it'll be interesting going from one type of game to the other.

When I think of character action games in the DMC/Bayonetta vein compared to the Souls series, a lot of it does come down to the question of when to attack.

Broadly speaking, I feel like the appropriate time to attack in those games is "whenever the enemy is in range" whereas that same mindset will quickly get you creamed in a Souls game. When a new enemy spawns into a fight in Bayonetta, I don't think anything about hitting it as soon as I'm able; if a new enemy pops up in Bloodborne, I'm still going to wait to see what it does before I jump at it.

The Souls games also up the consequences of getting hit, for both you and the enemy. One characteristic in my mind of character action games is that you have to hit enemies a lot. Even the intro enemies seem to take ten hits to go down, and that's why mid-air juggling and stun-locking is so important. Likewise, you're pretty resilient yourself (at least at normal difficulties) so blowing a dodge isn't going to kill you. Enemies in the Souls games feel like they take fewer hits to put down, but so do you. Blow a defensive move in a Souls game, and you'll quickly find yourself near death. You'll see that same kind of thing in the higher difficulties of a typical character action game, where you're super vulnerable, but in those cases enemies tend to have even more HP so they take even more hits to defeat.

Bloodborne was Dark Souls without shields. Keep moving, or else.

I'm kinda just waiting to see how much the people who don't like this game compared to Dark Souls try to blame Activision. I foresee a lot of accusations of publisher interference and "dumbing down".

All those above are doing a great job explaining the differences. For souls games keep in mind people have done no shield & no hit runs etc. The game makes it all possible according to play style and challenge desired.

It's way different than Batman or dmc where you can tank enemies with combo moves. If I draw a crowd of enemies I need to be very cautious of my next steps and strategy. Playing fast is a strategy but you can't do it out the gate easy without learning your enemy or boss.

I think what will hold me back from getting this is no character customization. Game looks great, but I just like having my own character.

^ Fixed protagonist feeds into my uncertainty over build latitude as well. I rarely touched shields in DS2 or DS3, but appreciated the diversity on offer. Perhaps this is where all the.. 'gadgets', which I've seen across various vids, will come into play. I hope they aren't traditional Souls consumables, but rather important A vs B vs C toolkit loadout choices.

As to recent posts, squinting I see the Ninja Gaiden vibe, but a big part of Souls games for me is that the environment, or any old scrub, or the combo of the two, can near always be fatal in a way that Ninja Gaiden typically reserved for specific enemies, bosses, or set-piece segments.

That and I assume that maintained parrying will not be a thing / have a steep cost that will get you killed, stamina wise, if you parry 1 or 2 more times then optimal -- and/or enemies aggressively breaking guard.

edit/add: as Clock put forth, I'm not expecting the kind of combo juggling or 'acrobatics' that are often staples on games that have a similar look to Sekiro. I am expecting I'll die a lot initially to ingrained Souls muscle memory

edit add-add: I'm going to miss having a halberd alt though. :/

Tagging into thread. I'm really curious about this one. Seeing From work with vertical spaces and incorporate jumping in a meaningful / interesting way has me pumped up for Bionic Bloodborne Commando.

Thinking through CCesarano's posts the reason I compare and just am 100% sold on From is the effort and finish out on every game. I have never felt disappointed from a product since Dark Souls 1. A game I have replayed so many times. Put in hundreds of hours on it and the sequels. This is my EU4. A game series I will never grow tired of.

Therefore I trust the DNA to be in siekro and I know it will be different and good. I am excited.

The game looks awesome. It’s the first time since my daughter was born that I’ve been bummed that I likely can’t play a big game due to the demands of parenting an infant.

Blind_Evil wrote:

The game looks awesome. It’s the first time since my daughter was born that I’ve been bummed that I likely can’t play a big game due to the demands of parenting an infant.

Maybe you can due to a truly innovative change from previous Souls games... pausing! That's right folks, you can pause Sekiro. Prepare to have your minds blown.

Pausing wouldn’t really help. I can’t really explain it. My day right now consists of working from 7am-5pm, preparing for the next day and playing with her from 5:30pm-7:30pm, and then attending to her overnight needs with broken sleep between the hours of 7:30pm and 5am.

I have tried to play Nier Automata since she was born and couldn’t make any headway because I can’t really commit to more than half an hour at a time. Games with complex systems or attack patterns to learn have been nixed. The only games I can play are on Switch, because I can do that while rocking her back to sleep.

Maybe once she’s able to sleep a bit more consistently on her own.

I've been there. It gets better. But yeah, for awhile, you won't be able to play much of anything.

The plus being that you will have a huge catalog of great games that are available used or at big discounts. It can be a fun thing to never buy a full priced game
Use backloggery or some other system to keep track of the titles thigh because you will forget that great game you really wanted to play a year

The Switch is mostly the only thing I can play with my almost 4 month old.

Yeah, I can't image [thoroughly?] enjoying Sekiro, especially with the initial, alleged, unlearn/relearn hurtle while trying to manage the needs of a ~4 month old (or ballpark age). One of my crash over 'adult dependent' friends has a child ~ that age and the only thing I'd imagine anyone trying to game is the clock for attempts at sleep. Seriously, she's constantly "no time to words, kids in the middle of balancing it's wobbly head on it's neck" -- dan'GA ZONE..

Heck, I try to entertain her ~2 year old and that's complete Eldritch Horror stuff that renders the prospect of gaming near laughable for me, as a bystander, on such days. Unmonitored that kid would lead to fires, or creative uses for the garbage disposal, or --STOP THAT -- no, the bathroom isn't a waterpark you knee high(+) dog riding herald of the apocalypse. -twitches- I need a breathe-deep bag just thinking about parents that have to 24/7 that stuff.

Just preordered on Steam. Can’t remember the last time I preordered a game, and the last $60 game I bought near launch was probably Nioh. I liked it for about 10 hours and then quickly fell off. I’m very excited to play this but a little worried about the lack of an online component, because I tend to get stuck.

This review finally made me pull the preorder trigger : https://www.techradar.com/reviews/se...

Looking forward to it!

Why did I think this was PS4 exclusive?

Hobear wrote:

Why did I think this was PS4 exclusive?

Either because it's From Software and they've made two Sony exclusives in this genre, or you mixed it up with Ghosts of Tsushima, which is PS4 exclusive.

hubbinsd wrote:

Just preordered on Steam. Can’t remember the last time I preordered a game, and the last $60 game I bought near launch was probably Nioh. I liked it for about 10 hours and then quickly fell off. I’m very excited to play this but a little worried about the lack of an online component, because I tend to get stuck.

This review finally made me pull the preorder trigger : https://www.techradar.com/reviews/se...

Looking forward to it!

I really don't want to get into a semantics argument, but that site called their impressions of the two hour preview event a review. Apparently, sites will not be getting their review copies until release.

I really hope it's a fantastic game. Time will tell.

Aristophan wrote:
hubbinsd wrote:

Just preordered on Steam. Can’t remember the last time I preordered a game, and the last $60 game I bought near launch was probably Nioh. I liked it for about 10 hours and then quickly fell off. I’m very excited to play this but a little worried about the lack of an online component, because I tend to get stuck.

This review finally made me pull the preorder trigger : https://www.techradar.com/reviews/se...

Looking forward to it!

I really don't want to get into a semantics argument, but that site called their impressions of the two hour preview event a review. Apparently, sites will not be getting their review copies until release.

Fair enough. Though TBH I was going to buy this game day 1 regardless. The "review" just gave me enough interest to pull the trigger ahead of time.

ccesarano wrote:

So, when I played Darksiders 3, Clock made it very apparent that my actual knowledge of Dark Souls is lacking. As a result, when I see these trailers, all I can see in regards to the gameplay is something more akin to Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden fused together, but with an emphasis on one-on-one battles than fighting hordes of enemies. It doesn't at all fit what I've come to expect watching the slower paces of Dark Souls fights, or what little of Dark Souls I've watched.

Sorry to bring this up again, but I've been wondering lately: have you played Nioh? I started it up last week, and I feel like it's the perfect middle ground between Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden. Which, of course, isn't surprising, since it was developed by Team Ninja. But if you've struggled to get into Dark Souls or even care about it much (which is understandable; Dark Souls, especially the first one, which everyone will tell you is the one to start with even though it isn't, is janky as f*ck) then Nioh might be a good bridge into the genre for you.