Dealing with Divorce Catch-All

Uh, also to be very clear, I am not disparaging the services the mediators at community justice centres provide! These fine men and women are vital to keeping people who shouldn't get bogged down in the legal system moving through it efficiently. And even where mediation fails it still serves an important function of giving couples an experience as to what a more formal court process could look like, although the process of mediation is intentionally non-adversarial.

My only concern is that not all cases are suitable for mediation, eg, d4m0's present parenting dispute where it's highly unlikely a compromise is achievable bearing in mind the conflicting factors of religion, the child's wishes, and a parenting plan which may not be suitable with the child's advancing age.

Now, it may be the way our legal system here is headed, but our relatively new Chief Judge has been sending even highly contested cases off to mediation before setting down a final hearing date. This is an effort to clear the court system of cases at the private expense of the parties. A junior mediator (counsel) can cost 5000 a day, and a retired judge or senior counsel typically costs between 8000 to 15000 a day. You'd only use a retired judge on a huge case with sufficient wealth in dispute to justify their fee. Those kinds of fees are ruinous to the average person. Which is why the family law system is so broken and prone to failure and dissatisfaction.

I also don't want to be seen as saying lawyers are an avoidable evil or anything like that. The enemy is expense you don't need, and if you can do it with less expense and hassle, then do it.

Several of you here are lawyers and give us all amazing free advice, and sound like you run very respectable practices. I think most divorces likely need two lawyers.

What Dakuna said. It was all about expense in our case as well. Good lawyers are indispensible. Especially when kids are involved. The fact that my state is a community property one complicates matters further.

Meant to tag into this thread a long time ago when I first saw it but I apparently didn't. There have been rough patches where I thought we might be on that path but things have really gotten better since I started some therapy, which I've mentioned in the depression thread. Getting my head right has fixed a lot of things I thought were wrong.

But anyway I want to be in here to support my goodjer family. This has been my haven on the internet for over a decade and if I can do anything to help any of you I will.

Take care of yourselves. You all matter to me.

So yesterday was my wedding anniversary. I didn't even notice it until today. I mean it's been 3 years now so...

I kinda don't know what to think. Like I don't feel sad. Just, strange.

BlackSabre wrote:

So yesterday was my wedding anniversary. I didn't even notice it until today. I mean it's been 3 years now so...

I kinda don't know what to think. Like I don't feel sad. Just, strange.

This is progress.. feeling neutral about a potential bombshell is entirely a win, at least in my book.

I have moments like this .. well.. probably monthly or less now. So progress! "this happened and I didn't even notice" .. this is for some thigns and in so many ways, the best it ever gets.

Dakuna wrote:
BlackSabre wrote:

So yesterday was my wedding anniversary...

This is progress.. feeling neutral about a potential bombshell is entirely a win, at least in my book.

Amen to that; you're never going to forget trigger days like that, but the fact that the thoughts about it even entered your head means its not forgotten, its a core piece of what makes you you ... you're human, you have a heart, and that strangeness, its that dissonance of remembering what was. Its good to remember, but also very good to not let that past rule you. Well done!

Another milestone. Today is the official day we separated 2 years ago... yeah thought it was 3 but apparently only 2. Some days it just feels like an eternity of running up a smooth surface with sand beneath my feet. Endless running with no progression.

But overall I think I'm ok. It's been an interesting two years. Lots of growth. Lots of learning about me, about the world. About who I am, why I'm here and what I plan to do with my time here. Some good days, some bad days. Think this is just life now. But I think throughout it all, I've hit that point of acceptance and just happy to see where the world takes me next.

Hope everyone's doing ok and that life is treating you kindly! Have a great day!

((hugs)) buddy.

Head down and power through.

Big news for me. Over the course of the last couple months things have really changed around. A couple months ago my ex got herself a lawyer somehow, and after that, it's been baffling how smooth everything has gone. We had a court date set for a couple weeks ago, but her lawyer asked everyone to meet the week before, just an informal meeting to go over things. My ex and I, along with our lawyers, plus my son's lawyer, all met at the courthouse just in a room, and she basically ended up agreeing to the changes I was proposing. I now have about 80% physical custody, without having to get in front of a judge at all. We didn't even end up going to court, since the ex just agreed to everything.

We set everything as a temporary motion, because at this meeting I found out that my ex was going to be traveling to Israel for the summer, like she would be gone for almost two months and I'd have my son the entire time. We'd set a court date for some time after she gets back to look everything over again and make it all permanent. Child support payments were the only disagreement, since obviously she didn't want to lose that income (which is rather large since I work and she doesn't).

Then last week I get a message from my lawyer saying my ex was leaving for Israel a few weeks earlier than expected, and she agreed that the child support payments could stop altogether in mid-May. And also that if we dropped the contempt charge from way back in January, we could make everything permanent now, so there's no need for a court date later in the year. I said hell yeah let's get these things in there. It's just all so weird. Nobody can figure out why my ex, who has fought tooth and nail about literally everything over the course of YEARS has suddenly in the last few months decided to agree to everything I'm asking and my son is asking. I don't understand it.

So I have a question. My son needs a cell phone. The ex has basically banned him from having a smartphone and last year said she would only agree to a flip phone, period. He had a flip phone last year after that for a couple months, but then lost it because he doesn't care about it and we never replaced it. Now that these changes have happened, especially with physical custody, I'm looking to get him an iPhone, but I don't know how to get the ex on board with it. I've already decided to get it, but I'm worried about how the ex will respond to it. Maybe she won't care anymore, but also maybe she'll go back to the old fighting ways and it'll be hell from the minute my son gets the phone. Any advice on how to go about this? I've even thought about just not telling her at all, but that's really not the right way. Or waiting until she goes abroad. I don't know.

That's great news, d4m0. My guess for her turn-around would be someone from her synagogue influenced her to focus on her own journey and stop trying to impose her worldview on everyone else.

Regarding the phone, I agree that you don't want to conceal such a purchase from her. But she's leaving soon, so perhaps it wouldn't hurt to wait a bit and convey that information when she's in a good spiritual place. If she still resists, claim the phone is yours and your son just gets to use it during the time he's with you (which sounds like most of the time) for safety/security reasons.

Really happy for you d4m0!

Good to hear d4m0!

On the phone front, don't hide it, no good can come from that. If she's concerned about what he will do with a smartphone during the time he's with her, try to come up with a compromise; i.e. he leaves it at the house/with her during those periods and work from there.

The ex has basically banned him from having a smartphone and last year said she would only agree to a flip phone, period. He had a flip phone last year after that for a couple months, but then lost it because he doesn't care about it and we never replaced it. Now that these changes have happened, especially with physical custody, I'm looking to get him an iPhone, but I don't know how to get the ex on board with it.

Unsure how well you guys communicate at this point but I'll agree with others that trying to open a dialogue about it first is almost certainly the only path to any kind of success. Something like, "I know in the past you've been against him having a smartphone but I would like to revisit that topic now. I think he needs one because X , Y, and Z, and I wonder if perhaps your feelings or reasons for him not having one have changed."

I think the compromise proposed by ShynDarkly is well-meaning but would likely backfire with negative consequences, making him resent leaving it behind in his time with her and opening the door to further souring things.

Honestly I wouldn't get him a phone on the basis that he didn't care about and lost the first one. Unless he has shown drastically more maturity in the interim. A new flip phone that he can text with along with an old SIM-less smartphone of yours should give him just about everything he needs.

Nevin73 wrote:

Honestly I wouldn't get him a phone on the basis that he didn't care about and lost the first one. Unless he has shown drastically more maturity in the interim. A new flip phone that he can text with along with an old SIM-less smartphone of yours should give him just about everything he needs.

Needs yes, but kids are cruel to each other. When's the last time you saw a flip phone. It shouldn't be this way but I'm guessing he didn't want to be seen with it. Texting on one of those old phones sucks. Kids don't talk on the phone, they send the latest snap/insta/whatever or text each other.

Thanks everyone, you have pretty much confirmed what I was thinking. No good would come from keeping it away from my ex. Since he's now with her so little anyway, he'll likely end up leaving it with me when he's going to her place.

Nevin, he has grown quite a bit in maturity since that flip phone, starting high school and other things like picking up more chores around the house. He's looking to get a job for the summer as well to start making some money of his own.

edit: tundra posted at the same time as me! You're exactly right - some of it was other kids, some was just that using it sucks, some was you can't do anything with it that anyone else does with their cell phones, especially his friends. I know it shouldn't be a big deal, and it isn't in the grand scheme, but literally everyone he knows, 100% of his friends and acquaintances, have smart phones, even those younger than him.

If he's old enough for a job, I can't imagine a reason why he can't have a phone. It's going to be a distraction to learn to cope with at any age regardless.

Who knows, the phone could well become a moot point.. Given the trajectory of other events, I wouldn't be surprised if the trip to Israel instills a desire to expatriate herself over there, or maybe some grass is greener thoughts going through the head. Might explain all the seeming shifts in personality and demeanor. /JustHowMyMindWorks

I finally told my ex she needs to get a divorce. I know people here have advised that I go do it myself, but I really want her to be the one to do it.

She agreed, but then got upset and cried and told me she's likely leaving her boyfriend. I told her the divorce isn't about him, or her, it just has to happen, and she agreed again.

I really don't understand why she wants to hold onto the marriage still. We don't hang out, and yes, it's largely because of her boyfriend, but staying married just doesn't make any sense regardless of what else is going on.

Anyway.. hopefully I'll be officially unmarried soon.

A friend at work is going through a somewhat amicable divorce. His ex initiated it. The divorce was supposed to be finalized in January. His ex has not yet signed the paperwork. He is starting to wonder if it has to do with medical insurance coverage. She has some health issues and his insurance is much better than hers.

Couple of points:

Re d4m0's situation, I'm pretty sure the mother seeing a lawyer plus the age of the boy meant it was likely a judge would make the orders sought, thus capitulation on the basis of no contempt for historical non-compliance. It's a common sense outcome given the boy will be staying predominantly with his father who is in a stable relationship. I'm glad things are moving in the right direction!

Dakuna, although divorce can be done by consent, it can also be done unilaterally. You don't need to wait until she is ready if you already are.

Dakuna, good for you for getting things moving! It sounds like it might be tough, but I think once it's over I think you'll feel so much better.

Well, big update on mine, making the whole cell phone thing moot. My ex announced to both me and our son on Saturday night that she has decided to actually move to Israel outright. Just like that - she's going to leave everything and move over there. She's already started the process of clearing out her apartment and found a place for her dog to stay. She has the thing she's set for doing over the summer that she was going to do anyway, and then after that... who knows.

I'm still reeling from it. I don't know what to think. After literally a decade of fighting tooth and nail on everything with our son, and watching and monitoring 100% of the things he does constantly, she's just giving it all up and leaving altogether, abandoning everything. She doesn't seem to have any plan at all either once the summer is over. I just feel like she's making a huge mistake, but at the same time, it'll be nice to essentially not have to deal with her much anymore. I don't know what my son thinks about it yet. She told me as I was dropping him off with her that night, and I won't see him until I pick him up from school today. He's said for a long time he wouldn't care if she did move far away and he hardly saw her anymore, but saying something like that and it actually happening are two very different things.

My next therapy appointment sure is going to be interesting.

Wow, d4m0, that's big. Life-changing big for all of you.

Near-term it can certainly be a good thing. Like you said, she was going to be gone for the summer anyway and you were all planning for that. You can settle into a stable routine with your son and achieve some sanity for a few months. That will do wonders for you two and your happiness.

But I'd say don't assume that's going to be the new normal going forward. Your ex will certainly miss her son, and could change her mind after a few months away. She may come back and re-insert herself into your life. Or she may seek to lure your son to Israel. My advice would be to at least mentally prepare yourself for those possibilities.

JeffreyLSmith wrote:

But I'd say don't assume that's going to be the new normal going forward. Your ex will certainly miss her son, and could change her mind after a few months away. She may come back and re-insert herself into your life. Or she may seek to lure your son to Israel. My advice would be to at least mentally prepare yourself for those possibilities.

Oh most definitely! Mental preparation for her possible return has already started, and she hasn't even left yet. There's totally no way to know what will happen after her thing for the summer is done, especially considering she literally never thinks about the future. I was thinking she'd probably be back in the US by next year, but who knows. I'm certainly going to work with my lawyer to write up the best possible agreement for this kind of situation.

Normally when a parent departs the home country it's reasonable for the remaining parent to have sole parental responsibility meaning you call the shots on everything for the child (it's due to the remaining parent's proximity to the child). However the courts typically preserve a right of communication so the departing parent may still keep in touch with the child. Where there's a religious aspect it's possible faith issues may be shared equally though.

In saying this, the situation can change should the departing parent return to the country although the court's stance on this would depend on whether there are new circumstances to demonstrate the earlier orders don't reflect the best interests of the child. I'm not entirely sure there's much that could change given the child is in good health and in his teens. d4m0, I guess I'm trying to say, it's a good development, but be mindful things can change. For example if the mother returns to the US and lives in close proximity to your living quarters and is in a stable relationship.

After years of being unhappy, I have finally decided that divorce is the only way forward for me. I have discussed this with my personal therapist and my parents over the past couple of months and am 100% certain this is what I want.

What I am struggling with is how and when to present this to my wife and help the outcome be as amiable as it can be. I am debating between bringing it up this weekend or waiting until we are meeting with a marriage counselor on Wednesday. This would be the 1st time we are meeting the counselor and I feel a bit terrible walking in there and saying look I do not want to work through this and just need to end the marriage. I don't know if it would be better to bring it up before our 1st session so we are both going in there know that we want the counselor to help us work through the divorce process. Also bringing it up on the weekend would probably be better as we would have time to process the whole thing before work on Monday instead of in the middle of the week where we would have work the next day.

What I do not want to do is go into the counseling session giving her false hope that we can work through this. I would rather be up front right at the start.

We do not have children, we both work full time and are financially stable. She has had health issues over the years but I feel we are both capable of surviving after separation.

Unrequested Internet advice: going to the counseling session can’t hurt. It gives the counselor an excellent understanding of your starting place and is an expected space for issues to be brought up.

Counseling doesn’t mean everything is going to be fixed; one of the roles of counseling is to bring things to a resolution. Although your wife may have specific expectations, I sincerely hope your counselor isn’t starting with a conclusion in mind.

Thanks Chumpy. I have not said anything to her yet and will wait until the counseling session. I have my own therapist session the day before so I will have that to help me prepare to how to approach the discussion.

I have been dreading the confrontation even through I know I will be happier after it is all over with. I have had trouble sleeping for a couple of weeks now just worrying about how everything will play out. Everyone I have discussed this with says I seem more animated and less depressed since I made my decision. But, I feel like a giant ball of stress almost constantly.

Don’t get me wrong; the actual discussion will probably suck balls. The after is much better, though. I’m substantially happier, both with my circumstances and with my changed outlook on the value of taking care of me.

Note that this is not me advocating for divorce. It’s having the discussion and determining next steps and learning about, then implementing, what’s makes you happy that is the important part. If that’s with your partner, great! If not, that can be great too.