[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

Stengah wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

I fully agree with Larson that there needs to be more diversity in arts and arts criticism. I also applaud her attempts to increase access to underrepresented groups. However, I disagree with the idea that a white male professional critic is incapable of objectively evaluating movies.

Good, because she never claimed that.

Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, she implied that a 40 year old white dude can’t fairly review a movie like A Wrinkle in Time.

You're reading it incorrectly.
It's not that a white dude can't review it fairly, it's that his opinion of it isn't as important as the opinion of a woman of color, whom the book (and film) was made for. He's likely not going to pick up on some things that are very important, or even if he does, he only gets it academically.

Ok I see the difference. Thank you. I just sometimes worry that there’s this idea of white males as a monolithic hive mind.

I actually think that jdzappa's response reveals a little of the unconscious bias we all need to check in ourselves, sometimes.

From what I read, Bree Larson's comments received a lot of negative blowback precisely because other people read it in a way similar to jdzappa's reading. Larson's "I don't need to hear from you" or "I think there need to be more women / people of color among critics" becomes "your opinion doesn't matter" or "you can't be fair."

jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

I fully agree with Larson that there needs to be more diversity in arts and arts criticism. I also applaud her attempts to increase access to underrepresented groups. However, I disagree with the idea that a white male professional critic is incapable of objectively evaluating movies.

Good, because she never claimed that.

Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, she implied that a 40 year old white dude can’t fairly review a movie like A Wrinkle in Time.

You're reading it incorrectly.
It's not that a white dude can't review it fairly, it's that his opinion of it isn't as important as the opinion of a woman of color, whom the book (and film) was made for. He's likely not going to pick up on some things that are very important, or even if he does, he only gets it academically.

Ok I see the difference. Thank you. I just sometimes worry that there’s this idea of white males as a monolithic hive mind.

That's certainly the interpretation the review bombers are pushing.

What I think she's getting at is that a review from the intended audience is going to be more visceral (and likely enthusiastic) than a review from white male. If the reviewer doesn't have much of an emotional connection to the subject, they're likely to spend more time talking about the technical aspects Garrcia mentioned. It's still a fair review, but it's not likely to get people excited. Since early reviews are so important to the success of smaller movies, not having those visceral reviews will hurt them. Having a more diverse group of reviewers will help them find their target audience easier, which can be the difference between getting picked up for a wide theatrical release or not.
Edit - and that feeds into the self-fulfilling "women-led movies don't perform well" bullsh*t (despite the opposite being true).

Also, like just about every position, 'film critic' is one that you get through schmoozing and networking. All things being equal, a white male-centric system will continue to perpetuate itself if people don't speak out against the unconscious biases and conscious biases that keep other critics from getting a fair shake.

LastSurprise wrote:

I actually think that jdzappa's response reveals a little of the unconscious bias we all need to check in ourselves, sometimes.

From what I read, Bree Larson's comments received a lot of negative blowback precisely because other people read it in a way similar to jdzappa's reading. Larson's "I don't need to hear from you" or "I think there need to be more women / people of color among critics" becomes "your opinion doesn't matter" or "you can't be fair."

Yeah, but here's the thing.

My opinion DOESN'T matter. Neither does yours.

I DO suck at being fair. You do too. We all do.

The sooner we all internalize that, the sooner we can all stop being butthurt that celebrity X, who is entirely and appropriately unaware of my existence, said something that made me have the feelz.

I posted an article about this issue some time ago, but I can't find it now. It's not that we need diverse reviewers of diverse material as much as it is, we need diverse reviews of all material. And let's just say we got the white males covered, and have had them covered for decades, or really, centuries.

Reviewers bring their perspective to what they cover. If all we read are the thoughts of white males, then we end up privileging their views over everyone else's. It creates a situation where creators are incentivized to cater their stories and marketing to white males first. It's also how so much problematic stuff gets made without "anyone" noticing the issues. Someone is noticing, but we just aren't listening to them.

Several years ago after a long, and at times stressful talk, about sports with my wife, I realized I had to do the same with sports. My wife is not s much a sports fan, but has always enjoyed going to events with me, and was more excited about prepping for Sunday get togethers for Chiefs games than even I was. When I taught her to keep score on a scorecard at the baseball game, it became her favorite thing, and now she asked to go to baseball games regularly (it helps that her office is across the street from Busch Stadium). But after a sports story about trying to bring black players back to MLB by investing in inner city programs we watched prompted her to mock MLB for not giving a crap about 50% of the country, it started a discussion.

She pointed out that all they talked about was teaching boys, reaching boys. If they wanted to improves attendance and TV viewership, maybe include girls. As the discussion went on, it became really clear just how heavily sports marketing fails. And this goes well beyond just the outright sexist portions of it, like Jon Gruden doing Hooters ads and such.

It's a blind spot, and I have it because I was only listening to white (and some black) men tell me all about sports. I decided it shouldn't be that way, and what I did was purposefully seek out TV, radio, writing, and podcasts of women in sports. And I'm not talking about women critiquing the role of women in sports, but women speaking about sports in the same way, but with their own perspective.

It started with The Trifecta on ESPN radio, which featured Sarah Spain, Kay Fagan, and Jane McManus. I started watching The Numbers Never Lie on ESPN with Jemele Hill and Michael Smith. Mina Kimes and Katie Nolan are both fantastic, with funny and wicked smart takes on sports and culture. I sought out as many female voices on sports as I could, and it changed a lot of, not just what I think, but how I think.

ESPN has done a pretty good job of getting more women on the air in more prominent roles, as they too slowly phase out the role of the sexy hot moderator that is there to nod and be pressed or disappointed by the male hosts arguing with each other. That is still a staple of First Take, and really needs to be retired. But ESPN has been proactive, even if it still has a long ways to go.

The change is that I see a lot more of what my wife and daughter see in sports than I did before. The discussions about sports with my wife was never whether sports were good or bad. It's about how we react to what we see, and that requires perspective. And she doesn't watch sports talk shows at all. That's not, and never will be, her thing. But watching sporting events together is better when I am getting a more diverse view of sports, which helps me relate to how my wife views the sports we do watch, and makes the conversations more interesting to both of us.

So, I think getting more women and POC into reviewing pop culture is about a lot more than just giving women and POC a reviewer that matches their experience, but it gives white dudes more access to diverse views on culture, and that benefits everyone.

The point is, to a large degree, that 40+ yr old white dudes with educations from decent colleges are a dime a dozen. We have no shortage of these people and our media it literally full of them. They can certainly have a wide variety of opinions but what they can't bring to bear are a large set of different perspectives.

Wanting to have POC, female, LGBTQ reviewers isn't about wanting to fulfill quotas or be PC or whatever (perhaps in the most cursory way). What it is largely about is that having different perspectives on film (or any art for that matter) is an unalloyed positive for audiences and creatives. If we engage with different perspectives on art we will all come to have deeper appreciation of that art. And if you care about art that is a good thing. It will help people make better art. People make art that better appeals to broader audiences or they'll make art the is better tuned to smaller audiences.

Rejecting other's perspectives is also a profoundly reactionary call to just keep being spoon fed the art and film that you're comfortable with.

SallyNasty wrote:

Didn't know which thread to put this in, but this is disappointing as I liked his music and now have to avoid him.

Boo, deadmau5.

Catching up on this thread a month later. deadmau5' one-day-later update seems pretty ok. (It's an update to the posted article.)

Update February 14th: Zimmerman later wrote an apology for his earlier post. “What I said was incredibly stupid, and I don’t actually hold those beliefs, at all. I let some gamer get the best of me, and in that moment I completely lost control. And me lashing back with some knee-jerk post about how it may have seemed unjustified... was completely unfair to Twitch and its viewers,” he wrote. “I would love nothing more than to finally be at peace with myself and be the best human being I can be, trust me. Being ‘Mr. I don’t give a f*ck’ is not someone I ever aspired to be.”
kazooka wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

Didn't know which thread to put this in, but this is disappointing as I liked his music and now have to avoid him.

Boo, deadmau5.

Catching up on this thread a month later. deadmau5' one-day-later update seems pretty ok. (It's an update to the posted article.)

Update February 14th: Zimmerman later wrote an apology for his earlier post. “What I said was incredibly stupid, and I don’t actually hold those beliefs, at all. I let some gamer get the best of me, and in that moment I completely lost control. And me lashing back with some knee-jerk post about how it may have seemed unjustified... was completely unfair to Twitch and its viewers,” he wrote. “I would love nothing more than to finally be at peace with myself and be the best human being I can be, trust me. Being ‘Mr. I don’t give a f*ck’ is not someone I ever aspired to be.”

He's a 38-year-old-man who also made homophobic and transphobic comments on Twitter back in 2018.

What's the Maya Angelou quote? "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

Yup, back into the shame closet

Brie Larson wrote:

“Am I saying I hate white dudes? No, I am not. What I am saying is if you make a movie that is a love letter to women of color, there is an insanely low chance a woman of color will have a chance to see your movie, and review your movie.”

DanB wrote:

The point is, to a large degree, that 40+ yr old white dudes with educations from decent colleges are a dime a dozen. We have no shortage of these people and our media it literally full of them. They can certainly have a wide variety of opinions but what they can't bring to bear are a large set of different perspectives.

Wanting to have POC, female, LGBTQ reviewers isn't about wanting to fulfill quotas or be PC or whatever (perhaps in the most cursory way). What it is largely about is that having different perspectives on film (or any art for that matter) is an unalloyed positive for audiences and creatives. If we engage with different perspectives on art we will all come to have deeper appreciation of that art. And if you care about art that is a good thing. It will help people make better art. People make art that better appeals to broader audiences or they'll make art the is better tuned to smaller audiences.

Rejecting other's perspectives is also a profoundly reactionary call to just keep being spoon fed the art and film that you're comfortable with.

Just to be clear, I fully agree on the push for greater representation in critics.

mild, IMO spoilers for Captain Marvel

Spoiler:

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D02IVdxWkAUjJ_Q.jpg:large)

jdzappa wrote:

Just to be clear, I fully agree on the push for greater representation in critics.

And, I just wanted to add, I didn't mean my post as a call-out and I hope it didn't come across that way. Your earlier post just reminded me of times in my own life where I'd hear a woman complaining about men and I'd be more inclined to say, "hey, don't paint us all with that brush" than to listen to the substance of what she was trying to say. It's a thing I've tried to be aware of, in myself.

Not all men inism

LastSurprise wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

Just to be clear, I fully agree on the push for greater representation in critics.

And, I just wanted to add, I didn't mean my post as a call-out and I hope it didn't come across that way. Your earlier post just reminded me of times in my own life where I'd hear a woman complaining about men and I'd be more inclined to say, "hey, don't paint us all with that brush" than to listen to the substance of what she was trying to say. It's a thing I've tried to be aware of, in myself.

No worries - I liked your post btw. I was responding more to DanB who I couldn’t tell if he was directly calling me out or just talking in general.

jdzappa wrote:
LastSurprise wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

Just to be clear, I fully agree on the push for greater representation in critics.

And, I just wanted to add, I didn't mean my post as a call-out and I hope it didn't come across that way. Your earlier post just reminded me of times in my own life where I'd hear a woman complaining about men and I'd be more inclined to say, "hey, don't paint us all with that brush" than to listen to the substance of what she was trying to say. It's a thing I've tried to be aware of, in myself.

No worries - I liked your post btw. I was responding more to DanB who I couldn’t tell if he was directly calling me out or just talking in general.

I was just infilling some general thoughts about the importance of fair representation. Not calling you out at all.

DanB wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
LastSurprise wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

Just to be clear, I fully agree on the push for greater representation in critics.

And, I just wanted to add, I didn't mean my post as a call-out and I hope it didn't come across that way. Your earlier post just reminded me of times in my own life where I'd hear a woman complaining about men and I'd be more inclined to say, "hey, don't paint us all with that brush" than to listen to the substance of what she was trying to say. It's a thing I've tried to be aware of, in myself.

No worries - I liked your post btw. I was responding more to DanB who I couldn’t tell if he was directly calling me out or just talking in general.

I was just infilling some general thoughts about the importance of fair representation. Not calling you out at all.

IMAGE(https://media.giphy.com/media/Fml0fgAxVx1eM/giphy.gif)

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...

This is only a little more surprising than James Damore in that the author is apparently a woman. Serves as a reminder that patriarchal thinking isn't only instilled in men.

peanut3141 wrote:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...

This is only a little more surprising than James Damore in that the author is apparently a woman. Serves as a reminder that patriarchal thinking isn't only instilled in men.

QFT.