[News] Trump, Russia, and the 2016 Election

All news related to Donald Trump's alleged ties to Russia and to the Russian interference in the 2016 Presidential election. New details should be cited to reputable sources.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

They're looking at Trump’s 90% approval rating with Republicans and thinking that if they oppose him, they'll lose their seats in a primary. Better to try to take on a Democrat in a general election with that Republican base behind them, they think.

And they're entirely right, unfortunately.

Now that the House is going to parade the Trump witnesses and defendants in front of the country on a regular basis, there is a chance that they can finally wake up masses as to what is going on. Let's see them rip Weisselberg to pieces like they tried to do with Cohen.

At some point, it all starts to look foolish, defending this blatant criminal. Wait till Jr. takes a seat in front of the House committees. You think he has the capability to not douche it up to the point even the GOP will want him to burn?

There is a path forward. The evidence is coming, and it is beginning to to work. Even with Cohen, I heard a news story where they were interviewing Trump supporters about Cohen's testimony. While they still defended Trump, they all seemed to generally believe Cohen. They just moved to saying they knew Trump was imperfect, so it's okay. But that is a sign that the needle is moving.

Jayhawker wrote:

Wait till Jr. takes a seat in front of the House committees. You think he has the capability to not douche it up to the point even the GOP will want him to burn?

You mean yell and scream at the Democrats about his life being ruined like Kavanaugh did?

All this reminds me of the recurring bit from Last Week Tonight with John Oliver where he keeps yelling “we got him!”

gewy wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

They're looking at Trump’s 90% approval rating with Republicans and thinking that if they oppose him, they'll lose their seats in a primary. Better to try to take on a Democrat in a general election with that Republican base behind them, they think.

And they're entirely right, unfortunately.

As well we should all simply accept that the entire GOP and Conservative movement in now lock step in line with Trump. They think the same and act the same. There is no hidden GOP resistance that will somehow restore our country to its "balance". This is the new norm.

Rat Boy wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

Wait till Jr. takes a seat in front of the House committees. You think he has the capability to not douche it up to the point even the GOP will want him to burn?

You mean yell and scream at the Democrats about his life being ruined like Kavanaugh did?

Let him try. At least Democrats run the committee now.

Yep. Now that the Dems run the House, we are going to see the witnesses the GOP should have been calling to testify in the first place. And these people are going to make Trump look worse every week. The charges will become more obvious, and the tide will turn, to the point even the GOP senators have to convict Trump.

It's going to be a crazy, crazy spring into summer. The main worry is what a Trap meltdown might mean before we get him out of office. Right now, with all the stories going, Trump's has to feel like a caged rat. And now, most of the worst is coming his own people.

We are getting pretty close to a point where we can run a pool to guess which day he resigns. He's not going to be able to take it. I'm still feeling like he won't be in office the day the Democrats take the stage in the first Democratic Primary debate, which is in June.

The speculation I choose to believe is that it will come to a head when his children are indicted. At that point he will resign if he and his family can go home and not to a cell.

JeffreyLSmith wrote:

The speculation I choose to believe is that it will come to a head when his children are indicted. At that point he will resign if he and his family can go home and not to a cell.

Wha? How would his resignation save his kids from jail? That's not how it works at all.

If anything, he'll cling on in order to issue pardons.

JeffreyLSmith wrote:

The speculation I choose to believe is that it will come to a head when his children are indicted. At that point he will resign if he and his family can go home and not to a cell.

Given Cohen's testimony about how one of the first things he did for Trump was to clear up one of Trump Jr.'s f*ckups (and said Trump said Jr. had "the worst judgement in the world"), I don't think he'd resign to protect his family.

Given Cohen's testimony about how Trump would get assessors to devalue his properties to reduce his tax bills (and also commit insurance fraud by inflating his wealth), I think Trump would resign to prevent investigators from examining the Trump Organization and his finances and tax filings.

I'm not sure what Trump fears more: getting locked up for fraud and tax evasion or people finding out that he's not a billionaire.

Jonman wrote:
JeffreyLSmith wrote:

The speculation I choose to believe is that it will come to a head when his children are indicted. At that point he will resign if he and his family can go home and not to a cell.

Wha? How would his resignation save his kids from jail? That's not how it works at all.

If anything, he'll cling on in order to issue pardons.

He won't be able to pardon many of the crimes his family committed in New York.

Seriously, I bring it up often, but everyone should give the Bag Man podcast a listen. It's just 7 short episodes, but the process they used to get Spiro Agnew to resign is not only fascinating, it is a road map for how to get Trump out.

The main difference is that the AG and SC were able to get Maryland to drop all but one charge in exchange for resigning. The Maryland prosecutors did not want to do this at all, but were convinced that it would be in the best interest of the country, as Nixon was about to be impeached, and the AG and SC were desperate not to seat Agnew as president when they had knowledge of the 40 charges of bribery and extortion that he was guilty of. Agnew plead to one charge of tax evasion and got zero time in prison.

I'm not positive Mueller and Barr will see Trump's resignation as worth dropping jail time to him and his family, but they might. They may also allow his resignation to limit the prison time. But this is all trump has to negotiate, and he is doing harm to our country every day he is in office, and it is getting worse as he gets more desperate.

If anything, Bag Man lends a fantastic insight into how things may be going behind the scenes now. Even if you don't want to compare it to the current crisis, it is a great story. Like most Americans, I grew up knowing that Agnew resigned due to tax evasion. I had no idea the extent of his crimes, and how much it impacted the SC's ability to get Nixon out of office. The podcast affected how I view the DOJ guys that have been dealing with this.

He'd wear getting locked up for fraud and tax evasion as a badge of honor.
People finding out he's not a billionaire would cause a fit like no other.

OG_slinger wrote:

I think Trump would resign to prevent investigators from examining the Trump Organization and his finances and tax filings.

Once again, how the hell does that work?

Stepping away from the Presidency isn't a get-out-of-jail free card at all. It doesn't make indictments disappear into smoke and it doesn't dissolve ongoing investigations.

If anything, it's smarter to cling to power as a sitting president can't be indicted, and the presidential pardon power is effectively unlimited.

Jonman wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

I think Trump would resign to prevent investigators from examining the Trump Organization and his finances and tax filings.

Once again, how the hell does that work?

Stepping away from the Presidency isn't a get-out-of-jail free card at all. It doesn't make indictments disappear into smoke and it doesn't dissolve ongoing investigations.

If anything, it's smarter to cling to power as a sitting president can't be indicted, and the presidential pardon power is effectively unlimited.

It can if you negotiate it that way.

I have heard his a an expert deal maker.

fangblackbone wrote:

He'd wear getting locked up for fraud and tax evasion as a badge of honor.
People finding out he's not a billionaire would cause a fit like no other.

This is what i'm salivating over. Nothing could possibly hurt him more than getting booted out of the millionaire's club and having all the Richy Riches start treating him like a regular schmuck.

Trump is too prideful and delusional to resign, and anyone who thinks that enough republicans will turn on him to get him removed from office clearly hasn’t paid any attention to anything that’s been happening the last two years. The GOP is basically a cult at this point.

Unfortunately I think that is true. What it will take is for that 50% of the people who sit out elections to become motivated to vote.

I am just now sure how much it will take for those people to get involved in being Americans but I guess legal arguments piling up are a start.

Jonman wrote:

Once again, how the hell does that work?

So far neither Mueller nor the SDNY are pawing through the Trump Organization's books or Trump's personal finances. Perhaps the closest is the SDNY recently subpoenaing documents from Trump's inaugural committee because money was run through Trump's business.

Trump doesn't want investigators digging deeper on the business side because if he committed federal tax evasion that also means he evaded taxes for the great state of New York. And it would be the same with insurance fraud (or whatever kind of fraud federal investigations would uncover). And Trump (or, bleech, President Pence) can't pardon state convictions.

You're right that Trump can't stop ongoing investigations. But he can change the equation for prosecutors by making himself less of a target. An ambitious prosecutor might search the heavens and earth for crimes a sitting president committed, but there's less impetus to do the same for a president who resigned. By remaining in office all Trump is doing is letting federal prosecutors build bullet proof cases that can be handed off to state prosecutors (or that can be prosecuted at the federal level if Trump loses next year).

Not to mention the fact that he probably continues to commit crimes and incriminate himself.

OG_slinger wrote:

So far neither Mueller nor the SDNY are pawing through the Trump Organization's books or Trump's personal finances.

Would we know if they were?

thrawn82 wrote:
fangblackbone wrote:

He'd wear getting locked up for fraud and tax evasion as a badge of honor.
People finding out he's not a billionaire would cause a fit like no other.

This is what i'm salivating over. Nothing could possibly hurt him more than getting booted out of the millionaire's club and having all the Richy Riches start treating him like a regular schmuck.

From what I read a while ago, they already do and it drives him nuts. He's never been accepted in Manhattan upper-crust society with all its charity balls. He's just a boor from Queens to them. It's why he's so desperate for good coverage from the NYT (and even SNL) even while constantly denigrating them.

Jonman wrote:

Would we know if they were?

Well, no one's filed indictments...

OG_slinger wrote:
Jonman wrote:

Would we know if they were?

Well, no one's filed indictments...

And really, this is what the House investigations are all about. No, prosecutors tend not to publicize all of their information. At best, witnesses just spin their side to the press and we wait to see what happens. But the House can subpoena witnesses and force them to talk about what is going on.

This spring and summer should be a parade of hearings in front of House committees. Impeachment is a political solution, not a legal one. Those open hearings are there to give the public insight. Public opinion will drive whether impeachment is possible. Is it possible opinions still won't change enough to get him out? Sure. But we can force every legislator to think about how he will look in 5, 10, or 20 years from now. I mean, the Dems could just give up and say there is not way. We could set the precedent for future administrations that this is okay.

Luckily, that's not what is going on. The Dems are fighting to shine the light on the truth and to force people to answer for their crimes. I don't know what good it is to complain that they might fail if there aren't other suggestions on how to proceed. This is the system. We need to work it.

Public opinion will have to change enough such that R's are less worried about a Trumpian primary challenger and more about losing to a D in the general. It will be a hard sell because you have to go way past reasonable inferences.

The only way we're free of Trump before 2021 is if there's another 2017 Woman's March-scale group event in DC with hundreds of thousands of people, and instead of motivational speeches from celebrities it culminates with everyone bum-rushing the White House.

It wouldn't even have to be violent. Arm everyone with bags of giant marshmallows. Have them pelt the White House with marshmallows in a symbolic display.

Of course, the Secret Service would start using deadly force if they got close enough to hit the White House with marshmallows, so it could turn into a Kent State situation. That would be horrible for the victims, friends and families, but a major boon to the movement.

It's sad but true that we are at the level of public apathy that the only thing that might snap society out of it is mass murder by law enforcement and/or security forces.

On the other hand, the victims would just be libtards, so who cares.

Well mass abuse and molestation of children by the government didn't do it, so I guess murder is the only step left.

LeapingGnome wrote:

Well mass abuse and molestation of children by the government didn't do it, so I guess murder is the only step left.

Mass murder, because shooting one person on 5th avenue won't do it.

Of course, speaking of disregarding potential consequences, there's reckless and then there's Roger Stone reckless:

Poltico: Judge demands answers from Roger Stone on book that could violate gag order

The judge in charge of Roger Stone's criminal trial on Friday demanded to know why the court wasn’t made aware of the “imminent general release” of a book that could include discussion of the longtime Trump adviser's legal proceedings, potentially violating a gag order.

So, now Trump says he was just joking about asking Russia for the emails. This is what he said to Katy Tur that day.

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0rjgAsXQAA6tgN.jpg:large)