[News] Trump, Russia, and the 2016 Election

All news related to Donald Trump's alleged ties to Russia and to the Russian interference in the 2016 Presidential election. New details should be cited to reputable sources.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
For instance, the [Stone] indictment says that in early August 2016, Stone received a tip from “Person 1,” an unnamed political commentator who was in touch with him throughout the campaign, that WikiLeaks was planning a “very damaging” email dump that apparently would raise serious doubts about Clinton’s health. That person told Stone it would be a good idea to float the idea that Clinton was unwell, because this would be the “focus” of the “next dump.”

Emphasis mine. I wonder who that political commentator is. We know that Stone is a regular guest on Alex Jones's programs, and we know that Sean Hannity was one of Cohen's other clients.

Jerome Corsi has publicly claimed it's him. Corsi's an alt-right whack-job who's made a living cranking out conspiracy theory books.

He was hired by Jones's InfoWars in January 2017 to start a DC bureau and fired in June 2018. There's a (conspiracy) theory floating around that InfoWars hired Corsi as payoff to keep him quiet about his role in connecting Roger Stone with Julian Assange for the leak of Podesta's emails.

Zona wrote:

Coincidence I'm sure.

Just feel like quoting this.

It's a sad commentary on the state of our country where something like this garners literally no response other than everyone privately muttering, "well, of course."

oilypenguin wrote:
Zona wrote:

Coincidence I'm sure.

Just feel like quoting this.

It's a sad commentary on the state of our country where something like this garners literally no response other than everyone privately muttering, "well, of course."

What's the proper response? We know the Trump administration and what's looking like the entire Republican party has sold out the country for a handful of rubles. We're rapidly reaching the point where it'll be clear that Trump is an illegitimate president, something our Founding Fathers never remotely considered a possibility.

So all we can do is throw it onto the "sh*t we have to fix once we kill off the GOP" and move on. Proving that there's a prosecutable connection between Chris Burnham and the Trump administration overturning sanctions will require a major investigation (and who even knows if a law was broken).

The only thing that is clear is that Trump has shattered the idea that norms and traditions are good enough to rein in assholes. We have to codify behaviors and give actual teeth to government ethics watchdogs. Considering how important these things are to the credibility of the government, perhaps ethical breaches should carry the death penalty. That way there won't be any future confusion: you either do the right thing or the state will kill you.

OG_slinger wrote:

throw it onto the "sh*t we have to fix once we kill off the GOP"

I think about this constantly with Trump, all the "polite norms" we've followed all this time that were never formal laws. Is someone keeping a list? Two lists: things we need to make laws instead of "norms" and things we gotta fix that this administration has utterly screwed up.

We should be making a list of laws that were never "super serious even if they are in your party we mean it!" laws so that we can change that too.

OG_slinger wrote:

The only thing that is clear is that Trump has shattered the idea that norms and traditions are good enough to rein in assholes. We have to codify behaviors and give actual teeth to government ethics watchdogs. Considering how important these things are to the credibility of the government, perhaps ethical breaches should carry the death penalty. That way there won't be any future confusion: you either do the right thing or the state will kill you.

On these very forums, I have been a fairly outspoken critic of advocating harm against anyone in the government. However, when the offenses reach the level of treason, despite the admittedly fuzzy application of the term "enemy" when we're not at war, the most severe punishment for treason has to be considered. The simple fact is: nothing else... NOTHING... is deterring these traitors.

Freezing assets or taking away all their money wouldn't work, because they have such a wide network of nogoodniks that they would find a way to get money. Imprisonment is not going to work, because what is the longest term any of these guys is going to get? Admittedly some of them are old and might die while serving their terms, but watching that happen is certainly not going to deter their allies and family members who happen to not get caught up in the web of evidence.

Hangdog wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

throw it onto the "sh*t we have to fix once we kill off the GOP"

I think about this constantly with Trump, all the "polite norms" we've followed all this time that were never formal laws. Is someone keeping a list? Two lists: things we need to make laws instead of "norms" and things we gotta fix that this administration has utterly screwed up.

Much like the behavior of King John led to many of Britain's "unwritten rules" being written down as the Magna Carta, Trump and the GOP's behavior must led to many of our previous unwritten norms being turned into written law:

Spoiler:

the MAGA C*nta

*Legion* wrote:
Hangdog wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

throw it onto the "sh*t we have to fix once we kill off the GOP"

I think about this constantly with Trump, all the "polite norms" we've followed all this time that were never formal laws. Is someone keeping a list? Two lists: things we need to make laws instead of "norms" and things we gotta fix that this administration has utterly screwed up.

Much like the behavior of King John led to many of Britain's "unwritten rules" being written down as the Magna Carta, Trump and the GOP's behavior must led to many of our previous unwritten norms being turned into written law:

Spoiler:

the MAGA C*nta

...that absolutely is a well turned phrase.

BlackSheep wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
Hangdog wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

throw it onto the "sh*t we have to fix once we kill off the GOP"

I think about this constantly with Trump, all the "polite norms" we've followed all this time that were never formal laws. Is someone keeping a list? Two lists: things we need to make laws instead of "norms" and things we gotta fix that this administration has utterly screwed up.

Much like the behavior of King John led to many of Britain's "unwritten rules" being written down as the Magna Carta, Trump and the GOP's behavior must led to many of our previous unwritten norms being turned into written law:

Spoiler:

the MAGA C*nta

...that absolutely is a well turned phrase.

I think it's better without replacing the second word with a slur. We're not Australian, after all.

Chairman_Mao wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
Hangdog wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

throw it onto the "sh*t we have to fix once we kill off the GOP"

I think about this constantly with Trump, all the "polite norms" we've followed all this time that were never formal laws. Is someone keeping a list? Two lists: things we need to make laws instead of "norms" and things we gotta fix that this administration has utterly screwed up.

Much like the behavior of King John led to many of Britain's "unwritten rules" being written down as the Magna Carta, Trump and the GOP's behavior must led to many of our previous unwritten norms being turned into written law:

Spoiler:

the MAGA C*nta

...that absolutely is a well turned phrase.

I think it's better without replacing the second word with a slur. We're not Australian, after all.

*Raises an Australian eyebrow...

Loosely related query: In the northern hemisphere, is an Australian eyebrow a mustache?

LouZiffer wrote:

Loosely related query: In the northern hemisphere, is an Australian eyebrow a mustache?

No, but it will swirl the opposite way around the toilet.

I'm not sure you're using toilets correctly if your eyebrows or mustache are involved.

BadKen wrote:

On these very forums, I have been a fairly outspoken critic of advocating harm against anyone in the government. However, when the offenses reach the level of treason, despite the admittedly fuzzy application of the term "enemy" when we're not at war, the most severe punishment for treason has to be considered. The simple fact is: nothing else... NOTHING... is deterring these traitors.

Freezing assets or taking away all their money wouldn't work, because they have such a wide network of nogoodniks that they would find a way to get money. Imprisonment is not going to work, because what is the longest term any of these guys is going to get? Admittedly some of them are old and might die while serving their terms, but watching that happen is certainly not going to deter their allies and family members who happen to not get caught up in the web of evidence.

I feel like this is a "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" situation, although it's more like "we've tried nothing, now let's murder people". This isn't a situation where these people have been in and out of prison for crimes, but continue to commit treason because there is just no stopping them. These are people that have specifically been avoiding any and all ramifications for a litany of offenses. I bet really big fines and prison time decades ago WOULD have curbed this behavior now. If Roger Stone had gone to prison for helping Nixon I don't think he gleefully performs similar activities for Trump. If Trump had gone to jail for discriminatory housing practices and dozens of cases of fraud decades ago he doesn't get elected President.

We aren't seeing a country that fastidiously enforces white collar crimes committed by rich and influential people, but sometimes murder is the only way. We're a country that has been looking the other way on such crime if ever at all possible, letting the perpetrators accrue more and more resources, connections, and money. We don't need to murder people, we just need to stop slapping them on the wrist.

Yonder wrote:
BadKen wrote:

On these very forums, I have been a fairly outspoken critic of advocating harm against anyone in the government. However, when the offenses reach the level of treason, despite the admittedly fuzzy application of the term "enemy" when we're not at war, the most severe punishment for treason has to be considered. The simple fact is: nothing else... NOTHING... is deterring these traitors.

Freezing assets or taking away all their money wouldn't work, because they have such a wide network of nogoodniks that they would find a way to get money. Imprisonment is not going to work, because what is the longest term any of these guys is going to get? Admittedly some of them are old and might die while serving their terms, but watching that happen is certainly not going to deter their allies and family members who happen to not get caught up in the web of evidence.

I feel like this is a "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" situation, although it's more like "we've tried nothing, now let's murder people". This isn't a situation where these people have been in and out of prison for crimes, but continue to commit treason because there is just no stopping them. These are people that have specifically been avoiding any and all ramifications for a litany of offenses. I bet really big fines and prison time decades ago WOULD have curbed this behavior now. If Roger Stone had gone to prison for helping Nixon I don't think he gleefully performs similar activities for Trump. If Trump had gone to jail for discriminatory housing practices and dozens of cases of fraud decades ago he doesn't get elected President.

We aren't seeing a country that fastidiously enforces white collar crimes committed by rich and influential people, but sometimes murder is the only way. We're a country that has been looking the other way on such crime if ever at all possible, letting the perpetrators accrue more and more resources, connections, and money. We don't need to murder people, we just need to stop slapping them on the wrist.

We have tried things though. We tried feezing assets, they were just unfrozen. We've tried putting people like scooter libby in jail, they were pardoned. It is patently false to say there have been no efforts to counter this corruption, it's just the the corruption has overcome the efforts. The light sentences on white collar crimes are testament to the pervasiveness of that corruption.

Mueller says Russians are using his discovery materials in disinformation effort

NBC News wrote:

Russians are using materials obtained from special counsel Robert Mueller's office in a disinformation campaign apparently aimed at discrediting the investigation into Moscow's election interference, federal prosecutors said on Wednesday.

One or more people associated with the special counsel's case against Russian hackers made statements last October claiming to have stolen discovery materials that were originally provided by Mueller to Concord Management, Mueller's team said in court documents filed on Wednesday in the Russian troll farm case.

That discovery — evidence and documents traded between both sides of a lawsuit — appears to have been altered and disseminated as part of a disinformation campaign apparently aimed at discrediting the ongoing investigations in Russian interference in the U.S. political system, according to the documents.

OG_slinger wrote:

Mueller says Russians are using his discovery materials in disinformation effort

NBC News wrote:

Russians are using materials obtained from special counsel Robert Mueller's office in a disinformation campaign apparently aimed at discrediting the investigation into Moscow's election interference, federal prosecutors said on Wednesday.

One or more people associated with the special counsel's case against Russian hackers made statements last October claiming to have stolen discovery materials that were originally provided by Mueller to Concord Management, Mueller's team said in court documents filed on Wednesday in the Russian troll farm case.

That discovery — evidence and documents traded between both sides of a lawsuit — appears to have been altered and disseminated as part of a disinformation campaign apparently aimed at discrediting the ongoing investigations in Russian interference in the U.S. political system, according to the documents.

I believe it. It's not like we have given them any reason to stop.

Yep. The worst part of Trump winning was that it delayed the US really doing anything to Russia. And to be clear, Trump's future impeachment and the way it will rip the country a part is just a bonus of a perfectly executed plot.

And Trump and the complicit GOP guys do not understand that Russia will never care about them. Once they got what they wanted, they will gladly expose everything, just to screw with us more. Trump and the GOP's only way out is to not only continue to work for Putin, but they need to eliminate the Democrats. Otherwise, as we are seeing, their jig is up.

Putin is loving every minute of this. He totally won.

I don't think he has won, yet. Trump hasn't abolished term limits and superglued himself to the oval office chair. There is still a chance that the majority of the electorate rejects this nonsense and fights back in this cyberwar. We have lost a series of battles and are teetering on the edge of systemic collapse, but it is not over.

That's a lot of evidence to parse through....

The evidence the Justice Department collected against Stone to charge him with lying to Congress and witness tampering includes "multiple hard drives containing several terabytes of information consisting of, among other things, FBI case reports, search warrant applications and results (e.g., Apple iCloud accounts and email accounts), bank and financial records, and the contents of numerous physical devices (e.g., cellular phones, computers, and hard drives)."
JC wrote:

That's a lot of evidence to parse through....

The evidence the Justice Department collected against Stone to charge him with lying to Congress and witness tampering includes "multiple hard drives containing several terabytes of information consisting of, among other things, FBI case reports, search warrant applications and results (e.g., Apple iCloud accounts and email accounts), bank and financial records, and the contents of numerous physical devices (e.g., cellular phones, computers, and hard drives)."

All circumstantial. Fake news and lyin’ mainstream media supporting deep state operatives.

Case closed!

Interesting podcast between Douglas Rushkoff and journalist Aaron Mate (the Nation):

Aaron is gong to break down “Russiagate,” taking a sober look at the media frenzy of “bombshell” stories asserting a Russian conspiracy behind the 2016 election. Maté explains why he thinks this narrative ultimately aligns with the longstanding interests of U.S. establishment power. He calls it a “privilege protection racket” that thrives on distraction and misdirection, turning the public away from a real critique of the rise of Trumpism that would otherwise implicate the neoliberal policies of democrats and conservatives alike, foreign policy think tanks, and the media. It’s a Team Human conversation that may play along a divide among listeners, but no matter where you fall on the question of collusion, Maté offers a thought provoking perspective on the dangers of this media obsession. Is the Russia fixation a media virus that our cultural immune system hasn’t yet built the appropriate immune response to?

On the Maddow show they quoted the Mueller investigation's discovery material was 4 million pages... just the discovery material for the case against the Internet Research Agency.

garion333 wrote:

Interesting podcast between Douglas Rushkoff and journalist Aaron Mate (the Nation):

Aaron is gong to break down “Russiagate,” taking a sober look at the media frenzy of “bombshell” stories asserting a Russian conspiracy behind the 2016 election. Maté explains why he thinks this narrative ultimately aligns with the longstanding interests of U.S. establishment power. He calls it a “privilege protection racket” that thrives on distraction and misdirection, turning the public away from a real critique of the rise of Trumpism that would otherwise implicate the neoliberal policies of democrats and conservatives alike, foreign policy think tanks, and the media. It’s a Team Human conversation that may play along a divide among listeners, but no matter where you fall on the question of collusion, Maté offers a thought provoking perspective on the dangers of this media obsession. Is the Russia fixation a media virus that our cultural immune system hasn’t yet built the appropriate immune response to?

Booting Trump out and restoring a functioning executive aligns with the establishment power? No sh*t Sherlock. That's the entire point.

We'd like that establishment that is capable, on a very basic level, of understanding and executing on it's power. You know, like the polar opposite of the Trump Administration.

I mean, it could maybe just be possible that Russian Information Manipulation and American's susceptibility to it are both things worth investigating, studying and reporting on.

I don't think that's what Mate is saying at all. I think he's saying that people are basically addicted to every little reveal the media puts forth as if Mueller is gonna save us all from Trump, but meanwhile the Republicans are passing sh*tty legislation while Trump is distracting everyone.

That and they the left had used Russia as a bogeyman in the same way the right used to when Russia was communist (ie. Red fear).

It's not that there isn't anything worth investigating it's that people are reading more into things and being sensationalized by the media coverage.

You may have seen CNN's report that Don, Jr's call to a blocked number just after the Trump Tower meeting was not to his father but to a longtime family friend.

A longtime family friend who happens to have ties to Russia and who has been a point of contact for Trump Tower Moscow.

Weird coincidence that a longtime family friend "happens" to have ties to Russia.

Bolding mine.
Does it say something about me that at some level I'm incredibly angry they they're all JUST SO BAD AT THIS. Collusion with a hostile foreign government to install a compromised President of the US should be something out of a le Carré novel, it should be deep and complicated and Difficult. It shouldn't be The Producers!

Stupid Watergate indeed.