[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

MathGoddess wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Yeah, and it wasn't appropriate. It'd take a very disingenuous reading of both jd's and Jay's posts to think of them as anything but sympathetic and supportive.

Butting in again for a bit....

What was missed and the reason for Eleima's response imo...AND MENTIONED IN THE THREAD is that it very different for a woman. The agreement that the behavior was weird is fine....but what was missed was the feeling that MermaidPirate has that she can't say "stay away" AND STILL BE SAFE.

She said she was second guessing if she was too harsh.

Agree that the guy is out of line. Helpful.
Talking about your experiences and ignoring the part about living now in fear and questioning if SHE has done something that will add to her being unsafe. Unhelpful.

Eleima didn't say to f*ck off. She noted the location of the thread and that it was seeming like men were telling women how we should feel or simply missing the real issue...not that a guy was out of line for coming over ta that hour, but that MermaidPirate was questioning WHAT SHE COULD SAY TO REMIAN SAFE and worrying that she may have made herself more unsafe by her response.

I think the discussion in THIS thread about whether the response was appropriate or not is exactly what this thread is for....you guys hash it out without chasing off women who may subsequently refuse to post at all in the feminism thread.

I think Eleima's calling out posting location was absolutely appropriate and wasn't nasty at all.

ALL CAPS for emphasis, not yelling....just trying to offer a female perspective here since I'm feeling healthy enough today to engage with the conversation.

Whereas I read jd & Jay's comments as commiserating, and reinforcing bekkilyn's & Eleima's comments that she shouldn't second guess her response because A) it was an entirely appropriate response and B) what the neighbor was doing is nowhere near some "oblivious guy thing" that men do without realizing how creepy and scary it comes off as. If they missed the real issue being her fear that her response made her more unsafe, well, they were just following bekkilyn's & Eleima's lead by focusing on the late hour and not commenting on the fear.

Stengah wrote:
MathGoddess wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Yeah, and it wasn't appropriate. It'd take a very disingenuous reading of both jd's and Jay's posts to think of them as anything but sympathetic and supportive.

Butting in again for a bit....

What was missed and the reason for Eleima's response imo...AND MENTIONED IN THE THREAD is that it very different for a woman. The agreement that the behavior was weird is fine....but what was missed was the feeling that MermaidPirate has that she can't say "stay away" AND STILL BE SAFE.

She said she was second guessing if she was too harsh.

Agree that the guy is out of line. Helpful.
Talking about your experiences and ignoring the part about living now in fear and questioning if SHE has done something that will add to her being unsafe. Unhelpful.

Eleima didn't say to f*ck off. She noted the location of the thread and that it was seeming like men were telling women how we should feel or simply missing the real issue...not that a guy was out of line for coming over ta that hour, but that MermaidPirate was questioning WHAT SHE COULD SAY TO REMIAN SAFE and worrying that she may have made herself more unsafe by her response.

I think the discussion in THIS thread about whether the response was appropriate or not is exactly what this thread is for....you guys hash it out without chasing off women who may subsequently refuse to post at all in the feminism thread.

I think Eleima's calling out posting location was absolutely appropriate and wasn't nasty at all.

ALL CAPS for emphasis, not yelling....just trying to offer a female perspective here since I'm feeling healthy enough today to engage with the conversation.

Whereas I read jd & Jay's comments as commiserating, and reinforcing bekkilyn's & Eleima's comments that she shouldn't second guess her response because A) it was an entirely appropriate response and B) what the neighbor was doing is nowhere near some "oblivious guy thing" that men do without realizing how creepy and scary it comes off as. If they missed the real issue being her fear that her response made her more unsafe, well, they were just following bekkilyn's & Eleima's lead by focusing on the late hour and not commenting on the fear.

The thing is, they don’t need to comment on the fear any more than they need to comment on air being breathable. It’s a given. Which is the point being missed.

This is an internet discussion board. There is no option to "nod sagely and indicate you acknowledge the speaker." That is what is being missed here with the "shut up and listen" arguement.

I don't know what the happy medium is, as I can see both sides of the argument.

Right, but I don't think jd or Jay are unaware of that, and accusing them of being so wasn't right. I don't think they missed it, they just didn't comment on it because the prior responses didn't either.

So as it seems we are stuck in a time loop repeating the same statements and getting nowhere. May I propose a 2 thread split become a 4 thread split?

An all female only (current feminism thread) I know the safespace idea was knocked a few pages back but for the future until all men figure out we need to listen not post it will save this from happening I the future. And boy do we know I'll probably eff up and write in there even though I have a personal rule to just read in there.

This thread for what it is.

A teaching feminism thread to us still learning where those who want to teach and take a careful approach to questions

And finally and man and woman feminism discussion thread that replaced what the original thread became. This one isn't necessary if the other three are enough.

Just seems to be the solution for what the parties here all seem to want.

This is on my phone so pardon any short sentences. Point being not to have to creat safe spaces but to avoid this monthly swirl that has become regular.

SallyNasty wrote:

This is an internet discussion board. There is no option to "nod sagely and indicate you acknowledge the speaker." That is what is being missed here with the "shut up and listen" arguement.

*nods sagely and clicks "Like"*

Hobear wrote:

So as it seems we are stuck in a time loop repeating the same statements and getting nowhere. May I propose a 2 thread split become a 4 thread split?

An all female only (current feminism thread) I know the safespace idea was knocked a few pages back but for the future until all men figure out we need to listen not post it will save this from happening I the future. And boy do we know I'll probably eff up and write in there even though I have a personal rule to just read in there.

This thread for what it is.

A teaching feminism thread to us still learning where those who want to teach and take a careful approach to questions

And finally and man and woman feminism discussion thread that replaced what the original thread became. This one isn't necessary if the other three are enough.

Just seems to be the solution for what the parties here all seem to want.

This is on my phone so pardon any short sentences. Point being not to have to create safe spaces but to avoid this monthly swirl that has become regular.

But which one can we post spoilers in?

Hobear wrote:

So as it seems we are stuck in a time loop repeating the same statements and getting nowhere. May I propose a 2 thread split become a 4 thread split?

Maybe men should just not ever post in the feminism thread? The best intentions are ignored, and the worst assumptions are made, pissing off everyone. I know we outnumber the women here (sh*t, it feels like every where I go men out number the women) so it makes some sense that one "Yes, we know X so you don't have to say it" in the feminism thread causes 4 pages of 'conversation' in this thread, but maybe we (men) can just shut up over there. It's been asked fairly nicely, it's been barked at us, and it's been ignored. Let's be good allies and shut up, listen, and maybe try to do some good?

Atras wrote:
Hobear wrote:

So as it seems we are stuck in a time loop repeating the same statements and getting nowhere. May I propose a 2 thread split become a 4 thread split?

Maybe men should just not ever post in the feminism thread? The best intentions are ignored, and the worst assumptions are made, pissing off everyone. I know we outnumber the women here (sh*t, it feels like every where I go men out number the women) so it makes some sense that one "Yes, we know X so you don't have to say it" in the feminism thread causes 4 pages of 'conversation' in this thread, but maybe we (men) can just shut up over there. It's been asked fairly nicely, it's been barked at us, and it's been ignored. Let's be good allies and shut up, listen, and maybe try to do some good?

I think your missing the point. I propose what I did so as we gather more people interested in the future we have a thread for the beginning feminist who is learning. Who will most likely make the same mistake posts that cause 4 pages of debate and mod intervention here. Who won't come to this thread and have to be blasted for not carrying the baggage of everyone who has been here a long time is posting direct feedback they don't understand. There is a place in this community to help teach newcomers and it isn't this thread. It would scare most off with how we all talk to each other.

What I am proposing is a 3 or 4 threads. A learning, 2(male and female and male debate male threads) discussions, and safe space thread. That way we have the appropriate conversations going in each level. Not just all lambasting each other.

Atras wrote:
Hobear wrote:

So as it seems we are stuck in a time loop repeating the same statements and getting nowhere. May I propose a 2 thread split become a 4 thread split?

Maybe men should just not ever post in the feminism thread? The best intentions are ignored, and the worst assumptions are made, pissing off everyone. I know we outnumber the women here (sh*t, it feels like every where I go men out number the women) so it makes some sense that one "Yes, we know X so you don't have to say it" in the feminism thread causes 4 pages of 'conversation' in this thread, but maybe we (men) can just shut up over there. It's been asked fairly nicely, it's been barked at us, and it's been ignored. Let's be good allies and shut up, listen, and maybe try to do some good?

And I should say I hear you and agree but also tell me how we'll gather more and teach more male gamers who come here?

Stengah wrote:

Whereas I read jd & Jay's comments as commiserating, and reinforcing bekkilyn's & Eleima's comments that she shouldn't second guess her response because A) it was an entirely appropriate response and B) what the neighbor was doing is nowhere near some "oblivious guy thing" that men do without realizing how creepy and scary it comes off as. If they missed the real issue being her fear that her response made her more unsafe, well, they were just following bekkilyn's & Eleima's lead by focusing on the late hour and not commenting on the fear.

This is approaching wilful ignorance at this point. How many times do we need to be told... I understand Maq's frustration, 100%.

Hobear wrote:

I propose what I did so as we gather more people interested in the future we have a thread for the beginning feminist who is learning.

I'm confused. Doesn't the first page of the feminism thread have a FAQ for this very purpose? I could also just not be understanding what you're proposing, which is entirely possible so I apologize. My question would be what would be different in your proposal that the first page of this other thread wouldn't cover?

Maq wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

This is an internet discussion board. There is no option to "nod sagely and indicate you acknowledge the speaker." That is what is being missed here with the "shut up and listen" arguement.

*nods sagely and clicks "Like"*

If all we do is click “like” this place becomes more a blog than a forum.

CptDomano wrote:
Hobear wrote:

I propose what I did so as we gather more people interested in the future we have a thread for the beginning feminist who is learning.

I'm confused. Doesn't the first page of the feminism thread have a FAQ for this very purpose? I could also just not be understanding what you're proposing, which is entirely possible so I apologize. My question would be what would be different in your thread that the first page of this other thread wouldn't cover?

So I agree there is information there but since men should stay out of there and I don't think this thread is really in any good state for teaching beginners. The thread above would be a place for them to be taught might help more people come to the table. Just my 2 cents.

Whoop, Robear posted before I got my reply in, but just to clarify who I responding to:

Brizahd wrote:

If all we do is click “like” this place becomes more a blog than a forum.

Pretty sure there are a few other threads around here that prevent that scenario from happening.

Brizahd wrote:
Maq wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

This is an internet discussion board. There is no option to "nod sagely and indicate you acknowledge the speaker." That is what is being missed here with the "shut up and listen" arguement.

*nods sagely and clicks "Like"*

If all we do is click “like” this place becomes more a blog than a forum.

I understand how you might have missed it because I'm a pretty quiet-spoken kind of guy and I don't think I mentioned this more than 3 times in the last day or so, but women on this forum have specifically asked that you show your support that way. Women on Twitter have specifically asked that you show your support that way. Men on this forum have repeatedly shared that information to this thread to reinforce and amplify the voices of women sharing their experience of this.

Maq wrote:

I understand how you might have missed it because I'm a pretty quiet-spoken kind of guy and I don't think I mentioned this more than 3 times in the last day or so, but women on this forum have specifically asked that you show your support that way. Women on Twitter have specifically asked that you show your support that way. Men on this forum have repeatedly shared that information to this thread to reinforce and amplify the voices of women sharing their experience of this.

Guess I will go back to reading and “liking” posts and not posting. You get a Like by the way. Which would be funny to me if they were cookies.

Hobear wrote:

So I agree there is information there but since men should stay out of there and I don't think this thread is really in any good state for teaching beginners. The thread above would be a place for them to be taught might help more people come to the table. Just my 2 cents.

Who do you foresee to be doing the teaching?

clover wrote:
Hobear wrote:

So I agree there is information there but since men should stay out of there and I don't think this thread is really in any good state for teaching beginners. The thread above would be a place for them to be taught might help more people come to the table. Just my 2 cents.

Who do you foresee to be doing the teaching?

Those who are not exacerbated or tired of correcting the beginners. I just offered a solution to what I was reading. I assume there are some among us who would take to it but it sounds like no one here is interested and this hill isn't one I am gonna die on. If someone wants it they'll build it if not whatever. Enjoy the endless cycle.

Yeah that's basically why I don't really post here anymore.

None of you seem to understand. I'm not trapped in here with you....

*tucks hair into a hat and puts up collar of trench coat just before applying fake mustachios to face*

*looks around to see if anyone saw the application of the disguise* No? Good!

*steps into thread*

*pretends to act naturally as walks along the thread paths softly humming a catchy tune*

*breaks into sprint, runs up and snatches the horseshoe and RACES back to the other thread before anyone is the wiser*

CptDomano wrote:

Whoop, Robear posted before I got my reply in, but just to clarify who I responding to:

What do all of us -obears post the same

opens GWJ

opens Favorite threads list

Men talking to men about Feminism: 65 new replies

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/zGHQb4O.gif)

Hobear wrote:
CptDomano wrote:

Whoop, Robear posted before I got my reply in, but just to clarify who I responding to:

What do all of us -obears post the same :-)

Well. sh*t. This is embarassing

Perhaps what some people think is "discussing" and what other people think is "discussing" are entirely different things? I do recall that I've had to change the way I post to something more conversational and less confrontational before I stopped getting dogpiled. Or maybe people just now have the sense not to respond? Who knows?

In any case, a discussion is different for a man and a woman, especially when it's between men and women. The current cultural climate means both that a man's post is one of possibly hundreds and adds to dogpiling, whereas a woman's post is few, and she has this pervading fear of being ignored or talked over. As a man, your post has to have very new and very weighty content, and you still run the risk of it being lumped over with hundreds of other content from other men. It's got to be really good if you want to post it on the Feminism thread.

What this means is that we can't ALL put our personal takes on everything in the main thread because the number disparity means it'll be swamped with male opinions, which means it's not a discussion thread anymore. Furthermore, unless it's a male issue related to feminism, we should be content to support and follow, not take the lead. I thought that this thread was a catch-all precisely for male issues related to feminism, specifically how to break free of patriarchal roles and ways of thinking.

This is not super productive and is really more of an observation then useful discourse, but I find it fascinating how much traffic this thread gets compared to the actual feminism thread.

The feminism thread was started in Sept of 2016 and this one has just turned a year old. It's already 4 pages longer. I realize men frequent here far more then women buts it's shocking to me that men have this much to say about feminism around here. And it's not like only women are the only ones that participate in that original thread.

Maybe we do spend more time talking then listening? Don't get me wrong there is a ton of great conversations being held in both threads but I often find this one trends to talking in circles more often.

I lurk around here mostly as I feel I am way out of my depth when talking to people on these boards but I just had to point out that little observation. I find it interesting.

Hobear wrote:
clover wrote:
Hobear wrote:

So I agree there is information there but since men should stay out of there and I don't think this thread is really in any good state for teaching beginners. The thread above would be a place for them to be taught might help more people come to the table. Just my 2 cents.

Who do you foresee to be doing the teaching?

Those who are not exacerbated or tired of correcting the beginners. I just offered a solution to what I was reading. I assume there are some among us who would take to it but it sounds like no one here is interested and this hill isn't one I am gonna die on. If someone wants it they'll build it if not whatever. Enjoy the endless cycle.

I apologize for stepping into this thread. As someone who doesn't fully identify as either male or female, I don't feel completely comfortable posting in either feminism thread. However, I wanted to respond to this.

Threads for women to discuss feminism with men are pointless on these forums, not because the men won't listen, but because most of the women are gone, and the ones that are left don't want to do it anymore.

They got tired of being talked over and talked down to. They got tired of being expected to be ever-patient and ever-willing to explain. They got tired of being teachers, and they got tired of being targets for harassment. They got tired of being left flapping in the cold breeze or scolded and told to calm down. Now they're gone. They left. They gave up.

There isn't an endless cycle here, there is a wheel, and there are people under it. They get ground down, and they quit.

There is a drain of women from this community, and it's worth examining why that's happening.

LarryC wrote:

In any case, a discussion is different for a man and a woman, especially when it's between men and women. The current cultural climate means both that a man's post is one of possibly hundreds and adds to dogpiling, whereas a woman's post is few, and she has this pervading fear of being ignored or talked over. As a man, your post has to have very new and very weighty content, and you still run the risk of it being lumped over with hundreds of other content from other men. It's got to be really good if you want to post it on the Feminism thread.
.

Ignored or talked over are the good and easy options.
Being told I'm wrong about my experiences, being called names, being dismissed, being directly threatened...even on just a message board.... these are the reasons that keep me from posting.

I'm currently reading Shook One by Charlemagne tha God and was thinking about it in relation to this thread today. He talks about tweets he has made and comments in interviews where he shows his ignorance about a topic. He learns from those mistakes and apologizes in the book and talks about what he's learned and how he's working to be better. It's really neat.

The correlation here imo is if you're a man to think of the main feminism thread as you would a racism thread if you're white. If a person of color posts about their nerves at a traffic stop and I post about getting pulled over and the stress it caused me....even if I think I'm commiserating, I'm being tone deaf and a bit oblivious.

This most recent "incident" is a reminder to all of us that it's very easy to drown out the minority female voices with the overwhelming male majority.

I don't think we need to ban men from participating in general discussion threads, but the better approach for most men is probably to refrain from too actively participating in such threads given the net effect, whether unintentional or not, is to reinforce male privilege. If in doubt, come to this thread and have your say and discuss the issues.

I also think the present threads are serving their purposes.

But sometimes people pile on and denigrate Goodjers posting with good intentions / lack of awareness of the broader issues. I understand people can lose patience and the temptation to respond with a snarky comment, but honestly, it's not about "winning the internet" and congratulatory pats on the back or farming "likes"; the whole point of this thread is to grow awareness and become better men. Attacking each other is the very behaviour this thread calls out. However, there's always plenty of room for constructive feedback.