Gamers that fight - Martial Arts catch-all

double post

I saw someone pull off an obvious neck crank the other day and I said "what is this catch wrestling brutality?". He laughed and said "pretty cool, huh?".

Was he saving the cow?

I'm relatively new to BJJ - was really pleased with rolling last night. I was partnered with a collegiate wrestler who had 70+ lbs on me (I'm ~5'5", about 150; this guy is easily 220lbs+ and much taller). Both white belts, despite our experience in other things.

On my side, I went butterfly guard to sweep to mount, but given his size/stength and my lack of technical understanding, could not pin his arms for ude gatami, nor could I manage an armbar. Instead, I slipped one foot behind his neck, offering him what looked like a path to take my back. As soon as he did, I dropped that knee, and as I would do standing, threw him with a morote seoi nage, albeit from a kneeling position. He went over effortlessly, and giving me kesa gatame. The round ended at as I settled in with the pin, but even so, it was a great moment.

Probably would not work against a more experienced partner.

In our Monday class, our instructor noted that the obvious finishes become harder and harder with experience. He specifically mentioned Kesa as an example.

Robear wrote:

In our Monday class, our instructor noted that the obvious finishes become harder and harder with experience. He specifically mentioned Kesa as an example. :-)

Cross collar choke: the first one you learn. The last one you master.

To clarify, what I meant was that the bell rang, ending the round before I could submit my partner.

At least at this point in my training, I don’t think of kesa gatame as a finish. I *think* it’s more of a transitory position. There are a couple of obvious arm bars from it, a cross-collar choke, and a few passes to north/south and mount that I am aware of; I can’t necessarily pull them all off, but since we’re not doing Judo, just pinning the other guy doesn’t really get you there.

I just got my blue belt a couple of weeks ago, and at this stage of training I'm starting to feel like finishes shouldn't necessarily be my goal. I feel like getting better at defense, position control, and smoothly transitioning between positions is where I should be focusing my efforts. The point of saying that is lately I've been playing with kesa and scarf holds really as control points (and hopefully wearing out my partner a bit) without stressing too much about finding a finish. I feel like if I can hold someone and prevent escapes for a while, that's a success and then I can try to transition to another position. I don't know if that is the best long term learning strategy or not, but it feels smarter than obsessing over finishes!
Speaking of finishes - how do you all deal with that one guy at the school who just refuses to tap? I know I just said I'm trying not to worry about finishes, but . . . I caught this guy in a kimura the other night and cranked his arm to where I think I could hear the shoulder starting to crackle. He refused to tap and I didn't want to actually break his arm so I finally just let go. Last night, same guy - I catch him in a RNC and expect him to tap after a couple seconds. Nope! He's grabbing and clawing at my hands like its an actual life and death fight. I hold it a couple seconds but the buzzer sounds before I have to decide to let go or not. I really don't care about "winning" a roll, but his attitude feels really dangerous to me. When I'm caught myself (which happens frequently) at most I will fight it a second or two but I tap pretty quickly. (Maybe too quickly, sometimes, but I really don't want an injury due to my ego getting out of hand).

Knightsabre wrote:

I just got my blue belt a couple of weeks ago, and at this stage of training I'm starting to feel like finishes shouldn't necessarily be my goal. I feel like getting better at defense, position control, and smoothly transitioning between positions is where I should be focusing my efforts. The point of saying that is lately I've been playing with kesa and scarf holds really as control points (and hopefully wearing out my partner a bit) without stressing too much about finding a finish. I feel like if I can hold someone and prevent escapes for a while, that's a success and then I can try to transition to another position. I don't know if that is the best long term learning strategy or not, but it feels smarter than obsessing over finishes!
Speaking of finishes - how do you all deal with that one guy at the school who just refuses to tap? I know I just said I'm trying not to worry about finishes, but . . . I caught this guy in a kimura the other night and cranked his arm to where I think I could hear the shoulder starting to crackle. He refused to tap and I didn't want to actually break his arm so I finally just let go. Last night, same guy - I catch him in a RNC and expect him to tap after a couple seconds. Nope! He's grabbing and clawing at my hands like its an actual life and death fight. I hold it a couple seconds but the buzzer sounds before I have to decide to let go or not. I really don't care about "winning" a roll, but his attitude feels really dangerous to me. When I'm caught myself (which happens frequently) at most I will fight it a second or two but I tap pretty quickly. (Maybe too quickly, sometimes, but I really don't want an injury due to my ego getting out of hand).

Mav and I differ on this.

I tend to let things go but tell the person I am about to let it go so they don't go full white belt abu dhabi on me once the hold is released. Generally, they accept at that point that I had something and could have finished if I wanted to be less accommodating.

Mav puts people to sleep.

Knightsabre wrote:

how do you all deal with that one guy at the school who just refuses to tap?

But seriously, if it's a joint lock of any kind, I just let it go. There's nothing to be gained from breaking someone's joint in class, even if they are being a stubborn knucklehead. There's no medal at the end and you're really just hurting your own training by stalling the match. And if it's someone less experience, they may accidentally hurt themselves too.

With chokes, I tend to be a little more ruthless, but not by much. Generally, people will tap when they start gurgling. But like Paleo said I don't have much compunction putting a person to sleep if they are being especially stubborn about it. What you really want to avoid is lasting damage that will put a fellow student and training partner off the mat for any amount of time.

Viewed from a slightly higher altitude, don't count your taps. I mean that as both numerically and "got one", I know it seems like a big deal now, but really notches on your belt in class mean nothing. Focus not on whether you got someone to tap or not but whether you are exhibiting control and controlling the pace.

Or, for people like me, whether you conceived a plan and executed it. Even if I tap after that, if I can string together a few techniques before going down, I'm doing well.

Robear wrote:

Or, for people like me, whether you conceived a plan and executed it. Even if I tap after that, if I can string together a few techniques before going down, I'm doing well. :-)

I've had nights where I said to myself "My only goal is to do this technique at least once with each person I roll with." And I will focus entirely on that, even if it puts me in bad positions over and over and I have to tap. If I can reach that goal, that's a successful night. Some nights it's just "If I can pull it off just once."

I will have to start humming the "Frozen" theme song when rolling with this particular guy from now on.

Knightsabre wrote:

I will have to start humming the "Frozen" theme song when rolling with this particular guy from now on. :)

This discussion couldn't come at a timelier moment.

I went to my old gym last night and a multi stripe white belt from a visiting gym was there going full on White Belt Abu Dhabi. He asked to roll with me and I told him right off that I was warming up so I was only going "Old Man Jiu Jitsu" and he accepted. Immediately, he went full on full speed, so I just gave up the pass and worked on frustrating submission attempts from bottom side. He spent the next five full minutes doing everything INCLUDING knee on face without getting anywhere close to a submission and stopped when he was gassed.

I still got my warmup and worked on bottom side survival which everyone needs to work on anyway.

Paleocon wrote:

This discussion couldn't come at a timelier moment.

I went to my old gym last night and a multi stripe white belt from a visiting gym was there going full on White Belt Abu Dhabi. He asked to roll with me and I told him right off that I was warming up so I was only going "Old Man Jiu Jitsu" and he accepted. Immediately, he went full on full speed, so I just gave up the pass and worked on frustrating submission attempts from bottom side. He spent the next five full minutes doing everything INCLUDING knee on face without getting anywhere close to a submission and stopped when he was gassed.

I still got my warmup and worked on bottom side survival which everyone needs to work on anyway.

Those guys make the best gurgling sounds, because you can feel the anger. Their frustration is palpable.

If someone did a knee on face to me during a casual, "friendly" roll we might fight for real.

Knightsabre wrote:

If someone did a knee on face to me during a casual, "friendly" roll we might fight for real.

I let it slide because I thought he was trying to go for a north south face clamp to kimura and just f*cked it up.

Knightsabre wrote:

If someone did a knee on face to me during a casual, "friendly" roll we might fight for real.

It definitely calls for the shoulder of justice treatment.

This is a great video just in general, but check out what happens at 2:19.

So much uchi mata and shiho nage

Sincere question. Am I an asshole?

I was rolling with a three stripe white belt today and started from the back mount. He was quite a bit bigger than me and had the white belt death grips which is okay because I didn't feel like I was in any great danger so long as I maintained my defenses. At one point, I noticed that he had his feet crossed and decided to test him by doing that cheap little ankle crank that everyone knows not to fall for. Sure enough, he did and got all kinds of angry at me after I let him go. I consider it a pretty standard move and as proof of it, a female blue belt tried that on me at this same school when I was a visiting white belt. On that occasion, however, my feet were not crossed and I whispered in her ear that they weren't and that move was not going to work. She, btw, got pissy at me for "teaching during a roll" and, apparently, teaching someone of a higher rank.

Anyway, once I let him go, folks looked at me like I was some kind of monster.

Am I an asshole?

no

Teaching during a roll should be a good thing, no?

Good grief no! Speaking for myself, being warned verbally about something is not nearly as effective as being actually caught and submitted. You did him a favor.

Ego is a disadvantage. When I sparred in Kung Fu, no one ever complained if I got off a "rope a dope" move, or a sucker punch. They took it as a learning experience (and I fell for them, too).

So, no, you were not an asshole. But. In schools where leg locks are either taboo or looked down on, of which there are plenty, the use of leg locks against white belts is even more looked down on. Not illegal, not dick move, but people get weird with leg locks. Unfortunately. I just avoid legs with white belts in general.

Knightsabre wrote:

Good grief no! Speaking for myself, being warned verbally about something is not nearly as effective as being actually caught and submitted. You did him a favor.

Funny. The reason I know of this move's existence is that a female purple caught me in it once four years ago when I was a clueless white. I have not made that mistake since and am hyper mindful of when folks are fishing for it. So much so that it once gave me the opportunity to lock on an exotic Eddy Bravo twister on someone who was trying too hard at it.

THAT one I felt bad about.

Oh and as far as teaching, during rolling out otherwise, I don't like talking at all. So I tend not to unless asked a specific question. I don't go to class to be social at all really so the less talking that happens the happier I am.