[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

Veering a little OT here?

Jayhawker wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

My wife and I hosted the family at our house for Thanksgiving. When they wanted to say a premeal prayer, I told them to go right ahead while I take care of some things in the kitchen. I'm not going to stop you from doing that in my house, but I am under no obligation to play along. My son is watching.

Personally, I think it is disrespectful to walk out a prayer. It comes off as diva-ish, and it really sends a message that it is appropriate to other those that have different beliefs than you.

In our case, we let our daughter go to church with friends and allow family and friends to say grace in our presence. She brought home a friend from collage that was trying to be more strict in following kosher rules, and we accommodated her requests by not just “letting” her have a kosher meal, but worked to make the meals we ate together kosher.

The last thing I would want to do is to make family and guests feel like I didn’t respect their religion.

I think this is a tricky issue and I don’t think I completely agree. I don’t think you are disrespecting a religion by not agreeing to actively participate. My friends have a daughter who is strict vegan. We make sure to have food and snacks for her if they are coming over but we are still going to enjoy burgers and brats. I’m respecting her dietary practices based on her ethics but I have no compulsion to participate.

If Muslim friends were visiting and wished to do noon prayer, I would be fine with them doing so in my house. I’m not getting on the floor with them though.

Respect goes both ways. I will tolerate your beliefs in a sky monster and won’t stop you from practicing. Please respect my belief in a lack of a sky monster as well.

So I think it’s great that your family ate Kosher. I don’t want to send the message to my kids that others belief in a religion is more important than my lack of one. Respect my decision to not participate in your beliefs.

Edit: And let’s be real here. The issue with believers trying to force their religion on others is magnitudes larger than the problem with atheists disrespecting those with religious beliefs. Millions have died (and many continue to die) in the name of religion.

Nevermind.

Jayhawker wrote:

I think the key is, I am not thinking about it in terms of beliefs. I think about it in terms of graciousness to guests. That might mean gluten-free for one of our friends. That might mean vegetarian options for others. And for some, it means participating in grace.

Why are two of those about providing options for others, but one of those is about restricting your own options?

EDIT: Put a slightly different way: would it be diva-ish to provide a vegetarian option to your guest but not eat it yourself?

It would be if you left the room while they ate it.

Read an article about how millennials tend to voice a desire for egalitarian standards but revert to more traditional roles at home.

I do the cooking and laundry mostly because I work from home (we did a whole chore spreadsheet when we moved in together which was a great call on my partner's part as I am naturally pretty lazy).

I really want to pull my weight, if not more so to help out the partner during grad school, but I have a really difficult time viewing my own situation with any perspective.

*mod*

WAY off into the weeds, topic-wise. Start a new thread if you need to, but get back on track here.

boogle wrote:

I really want to pull my weight, if not more so to help out the partner during grad school, but I have a really difficult time viewing my own situation with any perspective.

How so?

Not sure that you actually are pulling your weight?

Basically. Feels like I am but history/knowledge of implicit bias means I'm unwilling to trust my gut in this situation.

If you want, show us the spreadsheet. We will tell you if the job lists are equal or not.

boogle wrote:

Read an article about how millennials tend to voice a desire for egalitarian standards but revert to more traditional roles at home.

I don't see anything inherently contradictory in those. You can want something to be available even if you know you won't choose it for yourself. The important thing is if the choice was theirs or forced upon them. Did the article mention if they're reverting to more traditional roles because that's what they actually want or because that's the only way that works financially for them.

mudbunny wrote:

If you want, show us the spreadsheet. We will tell you if the job lists are equal or not.

Or ask your partner what they think and trust their gut.

Stengah wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

If you want, show us the spreadsheet. We will tell you if the job lists are equal or not.

Or ask your partner what they think and trust their gut.

Bingo.

The key thing is NOT whether the lists are "equal" or not. It's whether you and your partner agree that the balance is right.

My partner and I split chores by which chores each of us are naturally drawn to, and which things bug us. My wife gets annoyed at dirty floors way before I do, so she takes care of that. I hate piles of clean laundry lying around waiting to be folded, so I take care of that.

Certis wrote:

Start a new thread if you need to, but get back on track here.

Your Friends Want to Say Grace: Friendly Custom or Domestic Terrorism Catch-All Thread

*Legion* wrote:
Certis wrote:

Start a new thread if you need to, but get back on track here.

Your Friends Want to Say Grace: Friendly Custom or Domestic Terrorism Catch-All Thread

Great title, but wrong link??

Edit: Nope, I'm just slow.

Seems like the right link to me. Unless maybe it got confused with this?

*Legion* wrote:
Certis wrote:

Start a new thread if you need to, but get back on track here.

Your Friends Want to Say Grace: Friendly Custom or Domestic Terrorism Catch-All Thread

You are doing god's work.

Well, at least we can probably rule out the Bible as Tyson's self-justification for his sh*tty treatment of women.

*Legion* wrote:
Certis wrote:

Start a new thread if you need to, but get back on track here.

Your Friends Want to Say Grace: Friendly Custom or Domestic Terrorism Catch-All Thread

Ahhhh...

Like a warm bath at the end of a hard day's work in Fall. #blessed

zeroKFE wrote:

Seems like the right link to me. Unless maybe it got confused with this?

Fixed your link.

Any boyfriend that moves in with me will be doing half of the bathroom cleaning, congrats. On a (flexible) schedule. No "he does other things" or "well he would only think it needs cleaning if it was quite bad, so I end up doing it nearly every time". Fifty percent.

Mermaidpirate wrote:

Any boyfriend that moves in with me will be doing half of the bathroom cleaning, congrats. On a (flexible) schedule. No "he does other things" or "well he would only think it needs cleaning if it was quite bad, so I end up doing it nearly every time". Fifty percent.

I want to "like" this more than once. Men—and I am including earlier iterations of myself here—often act like 50% is the goal, not the minimum. You don't get a cookie for doing "almost half" the housework.

I’m with Jonman (don’t I wish... *swoon); it’s about both partners being happy with the arrangement. Might be 50/50, might be 70/30, might be skipping nights out to pay for a housekeeper. Whatever the arrangement, if both parties are happy with it, you’re good.

My wife and I talk alot about the unwritten tasks or mental/emotional work that is often part of the home scene:

Thanking about/remembering kiddo extracurricular activities at school, etc.

Nutritional planning

Managing/monitoring the family's emotional state (is everyone comfortable/happy/fed/getting their panoply of needs met, etc.)

These often require energy but may not always show up as to-do's because they don't manifest physically (by that I mean you can physically see the laundry is sitting there but you have to be emotionally attuned to the fact that the 5yo is getting antsy and needs an outside activity lest we face a meltdown later).

I'd be interested in how others deal with this aspect of "domestic" work, specifically how you work with your partner to make things fair. For my own part I try very hard to be cognizant of these unwritten energy "events" and I 100% see how they are absolutely work...and they have historically been assigned to women which I am convinced is unfair. Things I try to do:

Embrace my emotional intelligence and pay attention to the kids' emotional state.

Pay attention to MY emotional state and watch how it impacts others.

I've taken the initiative to sign us up for a meal planning service so that neither of us have to worry about food prep on the weekend or fret about the consequences of ordering out when in a bind for time during the week.

Write down all events onto our fridge calendar as well as Cozi app (I hate doing it 2x but my wife likes seeing things on a physical copy).

I handle the kids during the night if any accident/wake up so that she can sleep. Period.

I get babysitting and schedule date nights for us to stay emotionally connected during these little kid years.

How about you all?

Top_Shelf wrote:

How about you all?

I pointed out my wife had missed a bit when cleaning the bathroom 2 weeks ago.

We work hard to be in balance. This means overall and through time we're split, but at any given moment, one of us may take on a heavier load. Right now, I handle the bulk of child work, they are 7 and 5, the house cleaning, and keeping her emotional balance relatively even. She is finishing her MBA and working more than full time rolling up the corporate ladder. A few years ago we were switched. I work full time too, but my job is flexible enough to let me handle the kid activities. Of course, I love coaching and all that kid stuff, PTCs or mentoring or whatever, while she doesn't as much. She's an amazing mother, but has never been the stay at home type, whereas I probably could be if we really wanted too.
I still almost never cook as I HATE cooking, where as she loves it, the more complex the better. But she hates/ won't do most outdoor or hardware tasks, plumbing/electrical.
So we work together on strengths and desires and aversions. We are also lucky enough to be in a position to just pay someone to do some of the stuff when neither of us want to or have the time to, ordering food or paying someone to handle the Fall leaves.

These days, I do very little housework. I ought to do more, but I don't. Sometimes I'll mind the kids and make a meal for us while my wife is doing taxes or minding the properties, but that's about it. I calm people down when they're about to tear each other apart over meaningless things (like whether a plate was set down now or two minutes ago), and I step in when the kids get a little ornery or short with each other.

I buy the gifts, I guess? I like shopping.

I've really learned a lot from my wife in this area. Here's Harper's on the concept.

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/cultur...

I just read someone describe "good men" as "asymptomatic carriers of misogyny" and I swear it's perfect.

Maq wrote:

I just read someone describe "good men" as "asymptomatic carriers of misogyny" and I swear it's perfect.

ha!

Not to be "that guy" but I'm totally going to be "that guy"; all people, male and female, are carriers and perpetrators of misogyny. It manifests worse in men and has worse consequences because of how the inherent power dynamics play out.

Maq wrote:

"asymptomatic carriers"

manshedding