Parenting Catch-all

I forgot if I've told this on here before, but we nearly starved my son for his first night home because we were trying so hard to get him to latch (this was after he was pretty good in the hospital). He basically cried all night. We went to the doc the next day and the nurse just looked at us like idiots (well it's how it felt, in retrospect she didn't really do this) and said give him formula. We did and all was well. We continued with BF as he eventually latched well, but we easily used formula when necessary or convenient (ex. travel) from then on.

Basically you (your family) do you.

ThatGuy42 wrote:

I had a horrid parenting experience yesterday. In the process of getting our playroom clean, I gave the simple ultimatum. "You have 2 hours to clean up this room, or I'm going to come in here with a garbage bag and pick up everything that is not where it is supposed to be." "EVERYTHING?!?!" my children all screamed at once. "Yes," I replied, "everything."

Well, 2 hours later the room was still in shambles so I came in with the garbage bag. For a solid 5 minutes while I'm just picking things up they did everything they could to stop me. They did not try and speed up their own work to put things away, they literally just tried to get in my way. I had all 3 kids screaming at me, my middlest kicked me, my oldest tried to grab the garbage bag from my hands. They were all screaming and crying at once and I was so overwhelmed that I finally lost it. I screamed over all of them in my loudest voice "HEY!! I TOLD YOU WHAT TO DO! I GAVE YOU WARNINGS EVERY 30 MINUTES. I ASKED IF YOU NEEDED HELP! YOU CHOSE TO PLAY, AND NOW THIS IS THE CONSEQUENCE! GET OUT OF THIS ROOM AND LET ME CLEAN!" I think the neighbors heard me I screamed so loud. It took me 20 minutes, but that room was done at the end, and the garbage bag full of toys is now in the garage.

The whole ordeal was exhausting and I'm still emotionally shaken. I just can't understand why they didn't pick up the damn room, especially because this is not new. I have done this exact same thing before, not just in that playroom, but with each of them individually in their own rooms. In every single one of those instances I have followed through with the consequence and filled the garbage bag with whatever was not picked up. But they have never fought me so hard before. I'm hoping they remember this lesson and we don't have to go through this ordeal again, because I just don't know that I can emotionally handle the stress.

My parents did the whole "take away toys if you don't pick them up" thing to me. I never fought physically against it, but apparently at one point I was perfectly content to just play with sticks and rocks outside after having every single toy I had taken away.

ThatGuy - sucks that it came to that. How old are the kids?

ThatGuy, sounds like a tough day. If you have tried this approach several times before and the kids never actually clean up the way you want, you have to do the cleaning, their toys get thrown away, and all of you are upset, are you sure this is the best approach?

I sympathize with the feeling that you have laid out the consequences clearly for them, offered to help them avoid those consequences, and they just refuse to meet you halfway. I had similar issues in trying to impose consequences on my daughter for calling us back upstairs when she was supposed to be asleep (because she was scared, or needed to use the bathroom, or wanted water, or whatever else). I proposed a very logical and clearly spelled out set of policies of what consequences would happen (with some positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement) but it didn't do much other than create extra anxiety and hurt feelings. After speaking with a child psychologist about it, the feedback I got was basically "yeah, that's a logical plan for the situation when you're dealing with a reasonable adult, but your 5 year old doesn't work that way." For our specific problem, the psychologist basically said, she's not consciously trying to manipulate you, she's just scared and insecure, try to be patient with her and be gentle with your limits and she'll get more confident and get through it. We scrapped our whole punishment/reward structure, and basically just calmly talked with her when she'd call us back up, and after a few weeks of having our evenings interrupted more than we liked, she just stopped doing it. Might not be applicable to your situation (and surely your kids' ages are a big factor too), but if what you're doing is making you and your kids miserable and not correcting their behavior, I think it's worth exploring alternatives.

Okay, so let's be honest. My kids are 9, 7, and 4. The issue sounds like "It's not them, it's me." I can't use this method, and emotionally, I just can't go through that kind of howling and yelling and screaming again. But, it's not unreasonable for me to expect them to clean up the room. Heck, they have no issues with doing any of the other household chores, it's just cleaning up their rooms or the playroom that gets this attitude and response. What methods have you guys used to get your kids to clean up?

ThatGuy42 wrote:

Okay, so let's be honest. My kids are 9, 7, and 4. The issue sounds like "It's not them, it's me." I can't use this method, and emotionally, I just can't go through that kind of howling and yelling and screaming again. But, it's not unreasonable for me to expect them to clean up the room. Heck, they have no issues with doing any of the other household chores, it's just cleaning up their rooms or the playroom that gets this attitude and response. What methods have you guys used to get your kids to clean up?

Carrot instead of stick.

I wait for her to ask for something e.g. "Daddy, can we go to the park (/play a boardgame/play Beat Saber)?", to which I reply "Sure, once you tidy your room, we'll go to the park."

Sometimes she'll get distracted (fair enough - she's 4.5), and I'll walk in and act surprised "oh, you're not done yet! Didn't you want to go to the park?"

Sometimes she plain gives up and gets despondent - a bit of encouragement and reminding her that she's in control - if she wants to go to the park, she can - usually gets the job done, albeit with epic preschooler eyerolls and dramatic sighs.

All that said, no idea if that works for someone else's kids.

ThatGuy42 wrote:

Okay, so let's be honest. My kids are 9, 7, and 4. The issue sounds like "It's not them, it's me." I can't use this method, and emotionally, I just can't go through that kind of howling and yelling and screaming again. But, it's not unreasonable for me to expect them to clean up the room. Heck, they have no issues with doing any of the other household chores, it's just cleaning up their rooms or the playroom that gets this attitude and response. What methods have you guys used to get your kids to clean up?

That's a tough age split, especially with the 4 year old. Consequences can be tough for them to understand, especially shared responsibility.

I also feel one needs to be careful of hard ultimatums with extreme consequences. It's hard on everyone, including yourself. It's like the 'cancelling christmas' episode of Modern Family.

As Jon says, try positive reinforcement, and if you have to go negative make the negatives something they feel, but not 'all the toys in the garbage' extreme.

mrlogical wrote:

ThatGuy, sounds like a tough day. If you have tried this approach several times before and the kids never actually clean up the way you want, you have to do the cleaning, their toys get thrown away, and all of you are upset, are you sure this is the best approach?

I don't think the toys were thrown away, just put in the garage until they've earned them back. The garbage bag was just something to put them into.

Jonman wrote:
ThatGuy42 wrote:

Okay, so let's be honest. My kids are 9, 7, and 4. The issue sounds like "It's not them, it's me." I can't use this method, and emotionally, I just can't go through that kind of howling and yelling and screaming again. But, it's not unreasonable for me to expect them to clean up the room. Heck, they have no issues with doing any of the other household chores, it's just cleaning up their rooms or the playroom that gets this attitude and response. What methods have you guys used to get your kids to clean up?

Carrot instead of stick.

I wait for her to ask for something e.g. "Daddy, can we go to the park (/play a boardgame/play Beat Saber)?", to which I reply "Sure, once you tidy your room, we'll go to the park."

Sometimes she'll get distracted (fair enough - she's 4.5), and I'll walk in and act surprised "oh, you're not done yet! Didn't you want to go to the park?"

Sometimes she plain gives up and gets despondent - a bit of encouragement and reminding her that she's in control - if she wants to go to the park, she can - usually gets the job done, albeit with epic preschooler eyerolls and dramatic sighs.

All that said, no idea if that works for someone else's kids.

My kid tends to balk at how big a job it is (even when it's not). She's not quite getting that she can break it up into smaller tasks on her own, but is perfectly fine picking up when I decide for her which group of things to pick up next.

I agree with most of what has been said, regarding the cleaning of the room. I'll also add that kids often have way too many toys these days. We let my 5 year old have a giant playroom with all of his toys. It was always a disaster area. With the thousands of cars, action figures, playsets, etc etc...It was honestly too much. I also think it was more of a distraction than a help for him. He would play with something for a minute or two, and then move onto the next batch of toys.

We got rid of a lot of the toys, carefully. We also got rid of the playroom. He has his room he can play in. His room is now always clean and he actually plays better for the most part. He also interacts with the family better.

Now...it could also be that he simply doesn't "play" with toys as much now that he is 6. But I think getting rid of the playroom was for the best.

This is probably the best "how do I do thinks differently" parenting book I've read lately.

Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids

I've tried the punishment, consequence, and even reward approaches with my 5yo daughter. On any given day, it's a crapshoot as to which will work. Reading the peaceful parent book, I realized I was completely focused on the outcome, getting her to accomplish or cease whatever I had set for her to do. I was parenting as boss and enforcing my priorities. Which are simply not hers. Eating dinner before bed-- just not on her list of important things, even though the minute it's bedtime, she cries and wails about being hungry. Food just takes a back seat to the rest of her life until it's no longer available. Cleaning her room was never important to her, even when she'd step on toys and break them (which I'd think would be enough motive, but nope), until she was of enough of an age and we got her a chore chart so she could earn an allowance to buy things. Until even that stopped working.

The biggest focus of Peaceful Parent is that the most important and critical aspect of your child's life is their connection to you. Full stop. You as the parent are in the unique position to be the safe harbor where they can retreat to and even rage against, all the while being a stable source of connection and groundedness. There's a reason toddlers check in with parents after a tumble -- they're looking to know if it's a tumble worth worrying about. They don't have context, but they know mommy and daddy would know.

It's hard to be the parent who has enough internal emotional space that a child can explore their own feelings, even the darkest ones, without bumping up against the parent's sensitivities or issues. But it's invaluable for those who can. And getting yourself in a space for it is what the first third of the book is about.

As for my daughter, I've threatened a garbage bag a few times, but never had to follow through. Usually she'd break down long before then and it'd break my determination and we'd renegotiate how to clean the room. For her, it was all overwhelm-- the whole room is just too much. But cleaning up 5 things, 10 things, 20 things was in her realm to handle. So she'd do a few and then check in, then do a few more and check in.

The age split of 9, 7, and 4 is a tough one. And I could imagine a lot of places for resistance and distraction. But if I were to throw out one idea, maybe cleaning together just isn't working. They each clean for 5 minutes alone, or each clean up a number of items based on their age. And when they're done with their part, they are finished. Just my first thought on a different approach.

Tough age split, I agree. The 4 year old isn't going to be much help with it. Not old enough to plan. They literally can't plan very much ahead at that stage - most of them anyway. It's a physical limitation. It might make sense to make exceptions for her, even though it'll seem quite unfair to the 7 year old. The 9 year old might get it.

I used both carrot and stick. They had to put their stuff away before they could do anything else. If that meant missing a Christmas party or something good we planned, then them's the breaks. Sucks for me, too, but they gotta pick up. Once they to about 7 they start asking about why I don't help out if it sucks for me so much and I have to tell them that I can't. I'm supposed to make them do it. If I could just do it myself, I'd have done it already.

For what it's worth, the shrieks and the cries are painful to hear, but it's good for them and it'll clean up the clutter. There's nothing inherently bad about kids playing with sticks and rocks. If that's all they can keep, then that's all they can keep. Maybe they're clued in on your distress. When I pick up toys, I REALLY want for them to go away because it's a toy they don't play with anymore, and there's too many of them to begin with, so I truly do intend to put that toy away.

You could do with a "storage room" sort of solution. That is, they have toys on active rotation. The rest are put in storage in the shed or something. Anything they don't put away is put into the shed. If they want it back, then can trade it by working for it - something extra or thoughtful that you didn't ask for. You may be surprised at how well they adjust with having significantly less toys around. Also teaches them to reflect on the true value their possessions bring.

LarryC wrote:

...
You could do with a "storage room" sort of solution. That is, they have toys on active rotation. The rest are put in storage in the shed or something. Anything they don't put away is put into the shed. If they want it back, then can trade it by working for it - something extra or thoughtful that you didn't ask for. ...

I'm snipping this part out because I think this contributes to my bitterness. I had mentioned it on the parental venting on slack but our kids don't get how good they have it. Each of my kids has a room to themselves, plus their own "playroom". And yet we still don't have enough space for all their toys so we absolutely have a shed outside and a "trade" policy exactly as LarryC suggests.

And yet they still whine, cry, and complain. My kids' lives are 100% better than my childhood. They have no idea how much my parents worked and toiled to make my life better and they have no appreciation for how much I work and toil to make their lives better. I honestly think it just adds to my bitterness and makes me more likely to get angry and frustrated with them when they show no appreciation or responsibility in their lives.

All I'm looking for is for them to say "thank you" and then do their jobs when I ask them to. But clearly, that's too much to ask. This morning we asked our oldest to empty the dishwasher. We got attitude and yelling and screaming in response. Seriously? It's not hard. Just take the clean plate, and put it where it goes. Repeat. Why are we fighting at 7am? My dad would have beat me for the attitude he gave us, and I would have deserved it. I am a better person because my parents punished me. And yet, I'm trying not to resort to physical punishments with my kids.

Can I ask where you guys stand as a community on the physical punishment spectrum and how effective different solutions are? Our own experience is that the positive reinforcements simply don't carry weight and work effectively. My wife and I do everything possible to try and reward good behavior, and we try our best to go through time-outs and taking away privileges first for bad behavior. But when it comes down to a major issue, we spank our kids. We absolutely are OK with a physical punishment when it is warranted.

And I'm the first to say, let's be open and honest here with no judgement. I don't want responses to be admonished or chastised if someone uses a method that is not approved by someone else. The golden rule here is what works for your family, works.

ThatGuy42 wrote:
LarryC wrote:

...
You could do with a "storage room" sort of solution. That is, they have toys on active rotation. The rest are put in storage in the shed or something. Anything they don't put away is put into the shed. If they want it back, then can trade it by working for it - something extra or thoughtful that you didn't ask for. ...

I'm snipping this part out because I think this contributes to my bitterness. I had mentioned it on the parental venting on slack but our kids don't get how good they have it. Each of my kids has a room to themselves, plus their own "playroom". And yet we still don't have enough space for all their toys so we absolutely have a shed outside and a "trade" policy exactly as LarryC suggests.

And yet they still whine, cry, and complain. My kids' lives are 100% better than my childhood. They have no idea how much my parents worked and toiled to make my life better and they have no appreciation for how much I work and toil to make their lives better. I honestly think it just adds to my bitterness and makes me more likely to get angry and frustrated with them when they show no appreciation or responsibility in their lives.

All I'm looking for is for them to say "thank you" and then do their jobs when I ask them to. But clearly, that's too much to ask. This morning we asked our oldest to empty the dishwasher. We got attitude and yelling and screaming in response. Seriously? It's not hard. Just take the clean plate, and put it where it goes. Repeat. Why are we fighting at 7am? My dad would have beat me for the attitude he gave us, and I would have deserved it. I am a better person because my parents punished me. And yet, I'm trying not to resort to physical punishments with my kids.

Can I ask where you guys stand as a community on the physical punishment spectrum and how effective different solutions are? Our own experience is that the positive reinforcements simply don't carry weight and work effectively. My wife and I do everything possible to try and reward good behavior, and we try our best to go through time-outs and taking away privileges first for bad behavior. But when it comes down to a major issue, we spank our kids. We absolutely are OK with a physical punishment when it is warranted.

And I'm the first to say, let's be open and honest here with no judgement. I don't want responses to be admonished or chastised if someone uses a method that is not approved by someone else. The golden rule here is what works for your family, works.

Well for one, I guarantee you are not as strict as you wish you were using the positive reinforcement and non spanking methods. I know this because I'm similar but with yelling.
So some suggestions, mainly to contribute to discussion rather than as an expert any more than any other parent.
1. Get rid of a lot of the crap. You are right that it is too much. I actually cringe at the thought of bdays and xmas as it just means more crap in the house. My sister understands and my parents are at least understanding of trying to go for experiences over stuff.
2. Talk and discuss and talk with your SO to help keep each other on the same page both in terms of strictness and making sure you are able to parent from the desire to help better your child than retributive rage. Yes, this is difficult.
3. Along with 2, figure out what you want or don't want from your child ahead of time as much as possible, whether chores or desert or whatever. This is to prevent answering an ask/demand/fight too fast. For example, "Can I have a snack?"(10 min after lunch). My immediate answer is No. But why am I saying no? Am I mad they didn't finish their lunch? Probably, but what did I feed them? What activites are they doing? How much sleep did they get?
These are just samples and may not apply, but think first and answer second.
For chores, try to get those announced up front as much as possible. I fail on this one often. When I give my son a list of stuff and clear expectations, he is usually super helpful. When I pop up things, he is more likely to whine. I need to realize he's 7 not 10 or 18 or whatever.
So many of us talk about routine for kids but don't hold to it ourselves that well.

Ok pausing to breathe and think about this all more.

As far as I know, every modern study has shown any kind of physical punishment is detrimental and results in the same outcomes you are trying to prevent. A good summary here. My kid is only 2.5 years old, but we have said we will not use any corporal punishment, we'll see how frustrating that becomes when she gets older.

I've tried typing up a few responses to hint at something, but I just can't do it. I'm going to say something that sounds nasty, but comes from a place of care.

ThatGuy, you need therapy.

You're trying to get gratitude from kids between the age of 4 and 9 yet you hurt them if you don't get your way? Then you justify it by going on about your childhood?

Then you come here, share this, and try frame the discussion so we can't be honest with you?

No dude.

“ThatGuy42” wrote:

The golden rule here is what works for your family, works.

Except it’s not working, as you’ve outlined in your post.

I'm very well versed in positive reinforcement because that's basically what has been used in my home for over four years now (my kids are 7 and 4 and on the autistic spectrum). It works. It genuinely works. At age 2, my eldest had lost any words he had started to use. At age 3, we finally figured out he was neurodiverse (spoiler: so is your truly) and started taking steps, particularly since he was having major tantrums born of his communications issues. Positive reinforcement works when done right. My eldest has greatly expanded his vocabulary, and I'm using similar guidelines with his younger brother (also neurodiverse). I complement positive reinforcement with light touches of extremely mild ultimatums ("if you don't come to dinner right now, I will take away your favorite toy for the evening") which I always enforce. Nothing worse than unenforced ultimatums.

Guess what doesn't work? Spanking. Yelling. I know, because I've done it. Not often (less than ten for sure, perhaps five times tops), and each and every time, it was a direct result of my frustration and being completely overwhelmed. I remember being spanked twice as a child, and have very vivid memories of it. What I remember most starkly was how I felt I hadn't deserved it, and how unjust it was. Those are just anecdotes, but LeapingGnome says, there's a truckload of studies on the matter and it simply does not work.
Your kids are still super young. You can't hold them to the standards of gratefulness you're outlining. It doesn't work that way. It's our job as parents to provide them, give them the best we can. The rest will come naturally, simply by starting out with simple things like saying "please" and "thank you". Do you and your wife use those even with each other? Setting a good example will go a long way (and let met just state for the record that my ex husband did NOT use those simple words with me, and it was certainly reflected in the boys - gosh, things are so much better now we're separated).

I'm not judging. But I'm seeing anger management issues and I don't think you're addressing the deeper issues here. MrD is right, I'd recommend therapy.

I've discovered that whenever I get super angry with my kids and start throwing down consequences--like throwing away toys--that make them really super upset then I should check to see if I've missed my meds that morning. Letting the righteous rage boil on like that is definitely something that disappered once I got the right treatment.

Since I stopped shouting and making threats my kids have also stopped shouting and making threats. Much calmer house now.

I tried spanking a few times (as someone who was spanked regularly) and did so while relatively cool headed but wasn't seeing results so quit. Personally, my childhood trauma is from parents who showed extreme disappointment in me, either verbally or ignoring me. So, I've always been mindful of how I go about that. Anyway, I'll have to side with the research on this one.

Spanking (or any other kind of corporal punishment) is, plain and simple, child abuse.

All it teaches kids is that violence is an effective solution when you are upset.

Agreed with MrDeVil and Eleima. I understand your emotional reactions (I wish they would appreciate the sacrifices I've made for them, why do we have to fight about this simple request, etc.) and have those same reactions myself at times, but in my non-professional opinion, those should be annoyances you shake off as part of the job, not festering sources of bitterness and rage.

I don't think it's impossible for some sort of light physical discipline to be part of healthy parenting (but see LeapingGnome's citation, which seems to contain actual evidence rather than my own vague sense of the world), but if you are finding yourself having difficulty containing your anger and resentment, adding physical punishment to the equation seems unwise. With all forms of discipline, it's important to make sure that your actions are constructive and focused on helping your kids learn, rather than on releasing your own frustrations.

I agree with the recommendation that you speak with a therapist about your own issues. You may also want to speak to a child therapist for their insights on your kids--as I mentioned in an earlier post, doing so really helped me get a better perspective on my kids' behavior and what I could reasonably expect out of them and how best to adjust their behavior. Learning that some of my daughter's behavior was normal, that she wasn't deliberately disobeying me but rather was exhibiting an age-appropriate inability to control her reactions to certain things helped ease my frustrations with her (she wasn't trying to manipulate me, she was being 5) and made my role in things easier (I wasn't a weakling who was taking the easy way out and failing to be tough enough to get my daughter to behave, I was listening to trained professionals who have seen these issues before and told me she would react better to a more gentle approach).

Somewhere in my mid-20s, as I was evolving into a professional adult who was semi-competently managing my own life but finding it to be really hard, it dawned on me that at my age, my mom had 3 kids and a not-especially-helpful husband. I wrote her a pretty lengthy Mother's Day card that year expressing how I'd come to better understand just how much she did for us, how much she gave up for us, how hard she'd worked, and how incredibly grateful I was for it. I have never seen my mom cry more than she did after she finished reading that card. It's important for kids to learn gratitude, but at the same time, one of the gifts we give our kids is a certain amount of cushion from the reality of just how hard and un-fun parenting can be (at least, I think that's true for those of us who are privileged enough to be able to shield are kids from this). If I truly understood how much parenting sucked at times when I was a kid, I would have been completely crushed by the weight of the guilt I would have felt. Kids should say please and thank you and not be brats, but I'm not sure they should truly understand how much they owe their parents.

To offer some support I am in the same boat. At a crossroads do I continue with failed parenting or do my wife and I take a new approach. I am tired of being angry Dad. I know my methods don't work. What really helped me see many errors in my way was watching a lot of the Mr. Rogers documentaries in recent weeks. I saw how much more effective compassion was and how much I hated what I was doing. I am not perfect and have been planning to take the family to therapy for some time. However, the difference between planning and picking up the damn phone are pretty far. Communication can be hard, so can implementing effective co-parenting habits. Good luck to you and all of us out there looking to change.

On the question of spanking, I'm personally against it. But I also understand it. I was raised that way. Compliance out of fear of punishment is still compliance. My mother tells the story that as a toddler my older brother was running into the street after a ball with a car oncoming, but he stopped at the curb because he didn't want to be spanked. She swears that spanking saved his life. And there's an argument to me made for that. I personally disagree, as I'll expand on later, but I can see and even appreciate the view.

Here's my broader and more specific take on the topic:

Parenting is a master class in imperfection and humility. My mother was raised with regular physical beatings. She decided that was unhelpful for her development so she altered her parenting. I was raised with spanking, yelling, and emotional trauma and manipulation. I've decided that was unhelpful for my development and have altered my parenting. I'm raising my children with conversation, negotiation, time outs, and occasional and regret-filled voice-raising. I'm confident my daughter will decide something was unhelpful for her development and change her parenting. The one thing I've got going for me as a parent is that I'm always evaluating and reading and learning and trying. I'm sure my voice-raising will go away, as will even time-outs. That is coming from the latest I've been reading about.

Now, I have major trauma and psychological issues that stem from my problematic childhood. But the fact remains that I wasn't beat up because my mother made a change. And I'm absolutely grateful to her for that. It's possible to be both grateful and scarred at the same time. My daughter (5) isn't grateful yet, but she will be, though not for a long time, I think. Cognitively, she won't for a long time have the capacity to take in all the layers I laid out above and process them in a way that leaves her feeling glad for her childhood. She is Highly Sensitive (as am I), particularly with noise, so when I yell it hurts her emotionally and physically. From my view, I can see that at least I'm not beating her or spanking her or neglecting and abandoning her. But from her view as a child, my yelling is just as harmful as any of those. Now, I know that those would actually be far, far worse. Children's perspectives just are not those of a parent, no matter how hard we try to get them to see it our way. They just can't, because they've not lived it and aren't developed enough to live it by proxy.

-----

As I said, I read a lot. Here are some of my personal go-to:

The Highly Sensitive Child
If you think your child may be Highly Sensitive, take the questionnaire and get this book. It is a life saver. And with the research showing 15%-20% of the population is highly sensitive, this book can affect the lives of a ton of parents and children.

All Joy and No Fun: The Paradox of Modern Parenting
Good, general purpose parenting book from the perspective of helping the parent and not necessarily about how to raise children. Written by someone who makes no effort to hide that sometimes parenting is an awful, miserable experience.

Nurture Shock: New Thinking about Children
The latest research all about the ways we think we're helping our children that actually turn out to be harmful. Praise for being smart actually makes children try less hard, fear failure, and shy away from new and challenging experiences. Or the latest information on children and sleep. Hint: They need WAY more than we think they do. And more. Highly recommended.

Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids: How to Stop Yelling and Start Connecting
My personal project right now. This book is what convinced me that raising my voice and even time-outs are not doing for my daughter what I want them to do. I get compliance, maybe, but I'm not getting development and growth. I send her for a time out for kicking her brother, and she's not re-evaluating her behavior and deciding how to be a nicer sister -- she's brooding over how unfair I am, she's feeling unloved and misunderstood, or she's forgotten all about it and moved on to playing.

How to Really Love Your Child

Haven't read it yet, but it came to me very highly recommended.

-----

And if you're ready for Doctorate level diving into parenting, and the potential negative effects, look into the work of Swiss psychoanalyst, Alice Miller.

The Drama of the Gifted Child
The Body Never Lies: The Lingering Effects of Hurtful Parenting
Thou Shalt Not Be Aware: Society's Betrayal of the Child
Banished Knowledge: Facing Childhood Injuries

This is HEAVY reading. Both because the writing is academic and thick, but also perhaps more for me because I saw so much of myself and my own painful childhood in what I was reading. I only recommend this for those who are ready to truly take a hard look into their own experience and parenting. It's like when you say to someone, I want your honest opinion and don't hold anything back. And then they do just that. It's all from a place of love and caring, but it is wrenching to hear. But also so very worth it in the end because you've learned and grown and can be a far better parent than you otherwise could be.

Alice Miller gets into the meat of the story many abused* children tell themselves: I deserved it; it was good for me; I'm a better person because of it. Children idolize their parents, so even harmful actions are deified into greatness because to an infant, parents are without fault. And those beliefs persist through adulthood even if we're completely unaware. But that doesn't make it right or accurate or correct.

*I'm using this charged word to include a large swatch of negative childhood experience, not just legal or traditional definitions of abuse. Personally, I put spanking in this category.

I think spanking works. I'm not against corporal punishment. But it's a blunt tool and it doesn't get much done. You can't rely on it to supply your heavy lifting, and in many cases, it can be a hindrance as much as a tool. There's a lot of cons to using it. I've only used it twice, once for each kid.

The first time I used it on my second child because she kept hitting and hurting people. We did not have this problem with the first one. So I finally decided to hit her. Hard. Just once. I made sure it hurt quite badly - I'm a doctor so I knew where and how to hit. I did it directly in response to her sadistically hurting her sister. After that, I promised her I would hit her again every time she hurt anyone else in my eyesight, if only so she understood on a personal level what she was doing to other people. It was a definitive solution to that particular problem. But the corporal punishment part was only the backside of it. Lots of work before and after. She was 7 when I did this. I waited that long because I wasn't sure she'd understand it otherwise. Five year olds are pretty damned stupid.

The second time was when my elder kid was 13 and she was having emotional breakdowns all the time and feared me because I carried out my threats. She thought she knew who I was when I was angry and she was emotionally distressed because she felt like I was disapproving of her in an extreme manner. I felt it was time for her to recalibrate her expectations. So the next time she got unreasonable, I lost it on purpose. I didn't hold back. I used none of my coping mechanisms. I didn't time myself out. I allowed myself to destroy property and toys and equipment. And I hurt her. That's the first time I did it and I put the fear of death in her. From me. She said she feared me before, but it was obvious to both of us then that she did not. She did fear me when I started destroying locked doors by kicking them in. That was the first time she saw me act out when I was angry. I reminded her about it afterwards and I pointed out that all the other times she thought I was angry, I was actually only mildly annoyed, and sometimes frustrated. She now knows how I am when I am truly angry, and she agrees that no one wants to see that. She also now believes me when I say I'm annoyed, and it no longer upsets her as much when I display annoyance or irritation. She also has to deal with her own anger issues, so she also now understands that I don't just never get angry. It requires active management on my part.

In both these cases, corporal punishment was used thoughtfully, and with many considerations and strategems laid out before and after. Even then my wife had to deal with some of the aftermath of both instances, and since I doled it out, I could not help her modulate the effects directly. The fear is too great otherwise and there's no talking to anyone once they're that afraid, especially kids.

For what it's worth, I generally don't raise my voice when I'm annoyed or irritated. I only yell or shout to project my voice through distance. I don't do it as an attack, because I don't want to model that behavior to my kids. They can get angry if they want, but yelling or shouting at others isn't allowed. Shout at a wall. It's not a physical attack, but yelling at other people breaks down any positive interaction quite quickly.

ThatGuy42 wrote:

I'm snipping this part out because I think this contributes to my bitterness. I had mentioned it on the parental venting on slack but our kids don't get how good they have it. Each of my kids has a room to themselves, plus their own "playroom". And yet we still don't have enough space for all their toys so we absolutely have a shed outside and a "trade" policy exactly as LarryC suggests.

And yet they still whine, cry, and complain. My kids' lives are 100% better than my childhood. They have no idea how much my parents worked and toiled to make my life better and they have no appreciation for how much I work and toil to make their lives better. I honestly think it just adds to my bitterness and makes me more likely to get angry and frustrated with them when they show no appreciation or responsibility in their lives.

All I'm looking for is for them to say "thank you" and then do their jobs when I ask them to. But clearly, that's too much to ask. This morning we asked our oldest to empty the dishwasher. We got attitude and yelling and screaming in response. Seriously? It's not hard. Just take the clean plate, and put it where it goes. Repeat. Why are we fighting at 7am? My dad would have beat me for the attitude he gave us, and I would have deserved it. I am a better person because my parents punished me. And yet, I'm trying not to resort to physical punishments with my kids.

Can I ask where you guys stand as a community on the physical punishment spectrum and how effective different solutions are? Our own experience is that the positive reinforcements simply don't carry weight and work effectively. My wife and I do everything possible to try and reward good behavior, and we try our best to go through time-outs and taking away privileges first for bad behavior. But when it comes down to a major issue, we spank our kids. We absolutely are OK with a physical punishment when it is warranted.

And I'm the first to say, let's be open and honest here with no judgement. I don't want responses to be admonished or chastised if someone uses a method that is not approved by someone else. The golden rule here is what works for your family, works.

You cannot expect your children to understand how well they have it now if they haven't personally experienced privation. They're children. They barely understand that you're not God or that you can't telepathically understand what they mean. Their understanding of the world is extremely limited, and you're the one providing it. No one else. If you'd always provided them with their own rooms, then that's what normal is to them. Because that's all they've ever known. They don't have empathy - too young. They can't understand poverty. Also too young. You can expect them to be smarter and more empathetic, but you'll be disappointed every time. That stuff is taught, and you're the guy who was assigned the gig to teach them.

Modeling is the strongest influence on the behavior of children. By far. It's actually also fairly strong as an influence on adults, but on children, the effect is uncanny. They WILL imitate what you do, and sometimes even how you do it and the words that you use. If they see you being thankful for the life that you currently have, and hear that you express thanks often, then they'll be more open to suggestions that perhaps they have it good as well (even though they've never experienced anything else). If they perceive you to accept orders gracefully, even though you obviously don't want to do something, then they'll be more likely to act similarly. Might have to ham it up a bit sometimes, but it's effective.

As an example, I have never failed to thank my wife for the meals that she prepares for us. It's almost automatic. I've expressed the idea that perhaps my kids should also say the same thing. It's taken more than a decade, but I have the distinct satisfaction of seeing them start to be grateful like this spontaneously - to my wife and to each other. And even to me. It does not disappoint me that it's "taken this long." Children often imitate, but even when they say "thank you," it is often just rote. Seeing my kids genuinely be grateful is a long time coming, but they have more than a decade of memories to reinforce the idea, and they're only now becoming mature enough biologically to have the hardware to understand the concept. So it's actually right on schedule.

Right now, we are also modeling having a schedule and having plans for the future. They're teenagers, so while we often encourage having a plan, we don't actually expect significant foresight until at least their 20s. Teenagers aren't especially famous for thinking things through.

So my chief suggestion is to be the person you want your kids to be. Act out this person with consistency and no small degree of obviousness. And stick to it if you have to do it for decades, as you probably will need to.

Past that, rewards and other means of behavior modification is actually in line with human expectations, though often much simpler and cruder. If your rewards aren't working, it's because the kids don't want them (you just think they do), or the rewards aren't big enough, or the behavior you're rewarding is strongly disliked for various reasons. It is not simply a matter of rewarding the behavior you prefer. They're not robots. They have to like what you're offering, and the behavior can't be that odious, or the reward must be correspondingly high.

Finally, don't underestimate the power of parental approval. Sometimes, a genuine thank-you from you and some heartfelt praise is the strongest positive reinforcement.

I'm just going to leave this here.

I apologize for not being able to engage more about this but I think, at least for me, part of my parenting problem is what I've been raised to culturally consider what "being a man" was.

It's a big topic but I believe there's an element of that here.

I agree with almost everything people have echoed here about negative reinforcement not working, I'd also add that positive reinforcement is probably not the best solution.

Keep in mind you chose to have kids, they dont owe you thanks for that, or thanks for providing for them. They did not choose you, these are the outcomes of decisions you made. Your job is to teach them to become productive members of society and hopefully become empathetic and caring members at that.

As Larry said children learn from those around them, first step to empathy is showing it. I'd argue physically punishing a child does not teach this, it may stop the activity out of fear of future punishment but what has your child actually learned? You could say they learn there are negative consequences to actions, but if the only negative was your punishment you are just training them to hide the behaviour from you better. The negative to bad decisions has to be informed by knowledge either by experience (not ideal) or the parent or care giver warning of said possible consequences of that action (ideal).

This is where I'd argue positive reinforcement is a bit tricky since it doesnt really teach the real reason why a child should be making "good" decisions. They will be performing for a treat or reward rather then actually learning that the positive, from a positive action is not always tangential. Of course since a positive is always better then nothing I'd still argue that this is not a terrible teaching tool unlike negative reinforcement.

We reward somethings like allowance or take away allowance if things arent done because we can draw a real world lesson from that. If you do a job you get paid if not you dont. As an adult no one will legally be able to correct my behaviour with a physical punishment so why use that against a child. We talk about feelings with our daughter alot and try to teach her that everyone has these same feelings, and it's better to talk to us about things and "make smart decisions" if something seems like it might not be a good idea dont do it then talk to us about why you didn't.

My daughter is only 9 so maybe I will be in for a rude awakening as she becomes a teen. That said we have had many teachers tell us Addison is a very positive influence on her class, she is well mannered and outgoing. They are often surprised by her manners and have even laughed that she only ever says "pardon" when she cant hear something instead of "what or huh" like most kids. Of course my wife and I know it's not because she has super manners or anything its simply because she knows no other response. Since she could talk we have only ever responded with pardon, please, thank you, may I etc...it is reactionary or reflexive for her at this point she doesnt even think about this behaviour it's just all she knows. It's not because it was punished or rewarded its because it's all she ever saw her parents do, it's how she has learned to interact with people.

I'm just pretty against negative reinforcement, whether that's physical or creative punishments. We know this stuff doesnt work, we see it in the prison system. Prison works as a deterrent to a certain extent but it's the programs that socially help people learn that often helps people break out of that cycle not the actual prison sentence.

I'm not trying to preach as the perfect parent or anything just saying what's worked for us in the most basic logical sense.

I am so thankful for this community. I really, really appreciate all of your honest responses. Parenting is definitely the hardest thing I've ever done. I really appreciate the references and book tips. I've got quite a bit of reading to do, and honestly, quite a bit of work on myself.

Thanks for taking the help in the spirit it was given, TG42.

As a late add, I'd like to suggest that we here start thinking of behavioral "issues" not as vices and virtues to be punished or rewarded but simply as behavioral algorithms that we're "installing" into our kids through their senses. In this way, showing one's gratitude is not materially different from learning how to ride a bike. You don't teach children how to ride a bike with corporal punishment. That's preposterous and it only teaches them to fear the activity and you.

So how do we teach children how to ride?

Firstly, we model the activity by riding bikes. This is how they learn that it is very possible and by showing that you do it, it makes it a little more desirable. Even older kids want to imitate their parents. It's part of wanting to be a grown-up.

Secondly, we give them the equipment they need to succeed. We give them a good balance bike they can use, not an oversized pedal bike that will kill them.

Thirdly, we assist them when they start the activity. We encourage them cheerfully, and help when they are on the bike. When they fall, we show concern and are havens for comfort. And then we encourage them to try again. They can do it!

Finally, we only expect as much from them as is appropriate for their age. Some children are precocious, of course, but most kids can't ride a bike until at least they're old enough to start learning how to walk (about 1 year or so). Most parents won't ask their kids to even try to ride a bike until they're about 4. We have to modulate our expectations to their actual physical capabilities.

LeapingGnome wrote:

Thanks for taking the help in the spirit it was given, TG42.

I’ll second that. Wonderful change of pace in a modern contentious society. Thanks TG.

I came here with this issue because I knew I had a problem and needed to change. I reached out to this community because I needed advice and additional points of view, and I know and trust all of you. Some of you I've met in person, some of you I've only interacted with online. But the key here is I knew I needed help. I knew and stated that my tactics weren't working, and this all started with a horrible parenting experience that I didn't want to repeat.

I'll tell you all right now that hearing your points of view, and especially your own experiences is exactly what any person who is in a plight needs to hear. We need to hear that we're not alone. We need to hear that it's not hopeless. We need to hear that there's another way.

I truly am so grateful for all of you. I shared these posts with my wife last night. She and I have picked up some books from your suggestions and are already talking about the things we know we need to change. It's a long road, but we both know it's the right thing for us to do; to look at ourselves and make positive changes.