[Discussion] Hope to Remember The Trump Administration Thread as being 'transparent and honest'

Let's follow and discuss what our newest presidential administration gets up to, the good, the bad, the lawsuits, and the many many indictments.

OG_slinger wrote:

Pence is giddy about the opportunity to make his Handmaid's Tale fanfic reality for American women.

If Roe v Wade is overturned they will probably hold a week long festival in the town I grew up in with dancing in the streets and people proclaiming that they've now saved ALL the babies and that we're on the path to return to being a Christian nation. I simply cannot overstate how central the idea of eliminating all abortions is in many people's lives. For over half the people I knew growing up the biggest concern in their lives was ending abortion. Churches had hammered away at that idea for decades and whether or not you voted for someone depended solely on how strict they wanted to be on abortion. Churches I attended would regularly put together vans full of the church's youth group to go protest "abortion clinics" so you had 10 and 12 year old out there with signs marching on the sidewalks begging people to not go into that den of horrors. Nevermind that most of the women going in there were just going in for regular health screens. I say all that to just remind people that there's not an insignificant portion of our country that would be just as happy as Pence if they were able to block all access to abortions, no matter any secondary costs like loss of access to healthcare and disease prevention. This one topic has become so overblown and outsized on the list of priorities that it's now become a win at all costs type of scenario.

Maybe it's a stupid question, but if Roe v Wade was overturned, and the decision goes back to the states, presumably some of the most liberal states would then allow it, right? Would everyone else, from other states, not be able to legally go to those states to get abortions?

Shadout wrote:

Maybe it's a stupid question, but if Roe v Wade was overturned, and the decision goes back to the states, presumably some of the most liberal states would then allow it, right? Would everyone else, from other states, not be able to legally go to those states to get abortions?

Well, i may be misunderstanding it, but without RvW states would be able to pass those "abortion is murder" laws that keep getting shot down and are no popularer in countries which ave banned abortion so even were you to go to the state next door to get an abortion, you could return to a criminal prosecution.

thrawn82 wrote:
Shadout wrote:

Maybe it's a stupid question, but if Roe v Wade was overturned, and the decision goes back to the states, presumably some of the most liberal states would then allow it, right? Would everyone else, from other states, not be able to legally go to those states to get abortions?

Well, i may be misunderstanding it, but without RvW states would be able to pass those "abortion is murder" laws that keep getting shot down and are no popularer in countries which ave banned abortion so even were you to go to the state next door to get an abortion, you could return to a criminal prosecution.

In normal circumstances, the Supreme Court would strike down a law that says "If you get an abortion in another state, it's a crime here," but these are not normal circumstances. And even if those states didn't make it illegal to have an abortion elsewhere, they would make damn sure that every woman who got an abortion would have it become public knowledge.

Kehama wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

Pence is giddy about the opportunity to make his Handmaid's Tale fanfic reality for American women.

If Roe v Wade is overturned they will probably hold a week long festival in the town I grew up in with dancing in the streets and people proclaiming that they've now saved ALL the babies and that we're on the path to return to being a Christian nation. I simply cannot overstate how central the idea of eliminating all abortions is in many people's lives. For over half the people I knew growing up the biggest concern in their lives was ending abortion. Churches had hammered away at that idea for decades and whether or not you voted for someone depended solely on how strict they wanted to be on abortion. Churches I attended would regularly put together vans full of the church's youth group to go protest "abortion clinics" so you had 10 and 12 year old out there with signs marching on the sidewalks begging people to not go into that den of horrors. Nevermind that most of the women going in there were just going in for regular health screens. I say all that to just remind people that there's not an insignificant portion of our country that would be just as happy as Pence if they were able to block all access to abortions, no matter any secondary costs like loss of access to healthcare and disease prevention. This one topic has become so overblown and outsized on the list of priorities that it's now become a win at all costs type of scenario.

I have extended family with a similar view. It's their driving political issue; they will vote against their self interests on just about any other matter if they believe a candidate's promise to overturn Roe v Wade.

Part of me wonders if the long-term impact of overturning Roe might be positive. The left would be galvanized to donate to causes that educate and provide free services & contraception, while working toward legislation to cement a woman's right to choose in the Constitution.

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community. And maybe another shot at rock & roll and video games.

Unfortunately there's also a very strong belief among those communities that equate contraception with abortion. Any effort to educate about safe sex or make contraception easily accessible will be fought just as hard, because it was never about the babies and it was always about the sex. Just look at the Hobby Lobby thing, that wasn't about abortion, it was about contraceptives.

thrawn82 wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
Nimcosi wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

I thin we have to wait for Mueller's report before anything drastic can be done in regards to Trumps SC selections. The key its just how convincing Mueller's report is when it comes to actual collusion and affecting the outcome.

I think it has to be over the top before the public is going to be down with impeaching judges. I think it could be that drastic, but it is way too early.

The goal has to be a full court press by Democrats to stall by flipping Collins and Murkowski, and forcing the red state Senators, like my Claire McCaskill, to hold the line. This will stall the nomination until after midterms, at least. But flipping the GOP senators and getting Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, Joe Donnelly of Indiana and Joe Manchin III of West Virginia to all hold the line is not going to be easy. It may be a pipe dream.

But I expect the Democrats to try. If they rollover, we may just be done for.

I want to believe, I really do, but: "Why Mueller’s findings in the Trump-Russia probe may never see the light of day"

I think a lot has changed since then, and I never bought into the argument they made when I read that before. Regardless, if the report gets quashed, I predict it gets leaked out. Rosentstein seems willing to play ball and release the report from everything I have seen. I think he is like Mueller, in that, yes, he's a Republican, but I don't think he has any interest in using his position to further the party. I think he just wants the truth to come out.

Again, it all depends on what is in the report. My hunch is that the insiders already know that it is going be a bloodbath for Trump and his circle. What we are seeing now is just everyone figuring out the best way to release the information so that it is taken seriously. And with the SC nomination and midterms coming, it is damn near impossible to pull it off because everything is political.

I feel like we need a different word for the kind of Republican Mueller, Rosenstein, and people like my father (showing my bias here) who are fiscally conservative but still care about honesty and loyal to country over party. They are not the frothing anti-lgbt anti-woman religious right that seem to be dominating national republicans and i feel bad giving them the same label.

*Those* guys are Republicans. McConnell, Ryan, Pence, Trump, etc. are fascists, and I believe it's safe to call them as much, because they continually copy the actions and edicts of prior fascist governments.

JeffreyLSmith wrote:

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community.

I don't know where you get this idea that gay marriage being legal would stop them from railing against it. Abortion is legal. That's why they've been so galvanized. "Pro-Family" is probably the next step.

JeffreyLSmith wrote:

Part of me wonders if the long-term impact of overturning Roe might be positive. The left would be galvanized to donate to causes that educate and provide free services & contraception, while working toward legislation to cement a woman's right to choose in the Constitution.

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community. And maybe another shot at rock & roll and video games.

I'm not sure I have the proper amount of gall required to explain to my wife and daughter the upside of overturning Roe.

Jayhawker wrote:
JeffreyLSmith wrote:

Part of me wonders if the long-term impact of overturning Roe might be positive. The left would be galvanized to donate to causes that educate and provide free services & contraception, while working toward legislation to cement a woman's right to choose in the Constitution.

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community. And maybe another shot at rock & roll and video games.

I'm not sure I have the proper amount of gall required to explain to my wife and daughter the upside of overturning Roe.

Yeah, any "long term benefit" would be built on top of a pile of bodies.

Also, contraception will be the next target.

thrawn82 wrote:

Unfortunately there's also a very strong belief among those communities that equate contraception with abortion. Any effort to educate about safe sex or make contraception easily accessible will be fought just as hard, because it was never about the babies and it was always about the sex. Just look at the Hobby Lobby thing, that wasn't about abortion, it was about contraceptives.

Yeah just look at what happened in Florida during the Bush administration. Kids thought if you got a shot of mountain dew it would abort a baby and other fun sex legends in lieu of sex Ed.

Mixolyde wrote:
thrawn82 wrote:
Shadout wrote:

Maybe it's a stupid question, but if Roe v Wade was overturned, and the decision goes back to the states, presumably some of the most liberal states would then allow it, right? Would everyone else, from other states, not be able to legally go to those states to get abortions?

Well, i may be misunderstanding it, but without RvW states would be able to pass those "abortion is murder" laws that keep getting shot down and are no popularer in countries which ave banned abortion so even were you to go to the state next door to get an abortion, you could return to a criminal prosecution.

In normal circumstances, the Supreme Court would strike down a law that says "If you get an abortion in another state, it's a crime here," but these are not normal circumstances. And even if those states didn't make it illegal to have an abortion elsewhere, they would make damn sure that every woman who got an abortion would have it become public knowledge.

Beyond whatever legal shenanigans a state that outlaws abortion would attempt I think there is a more practical issue.

With abortion legal in only a few states, and presumably congregated on either coast, it will make it challenging regardless of legal issues for anyone who cannot afford the cost in having to visit what may be a relatively distant local.

Double post

[quote="JeffreyLSmith"][quote="Kehama"][quote="OG_slinger"]Pence is giddy about the opportunity to make his [i]Handmaid's Tale[/i] fanfic reality for American women.[/quote]

If Roe v Wade is overturned they will probably hold a week long festival in the town I grew up in with dancing in the streets and people proclaiming that they've now saved ALL the babies and that we're on the path to return to being a Christian nation. I simply cannot overstate how central the idea of eliminating all abortions is in many people's lives. For over half the people I knew growing up the biggest concern in their lives was ending abortion. Churches had hammered away at that idea for decades and whether or not you voted for someone depended solely on how strict they wanted to be on abortion. Churches I attended would regularly put together vans full of the church's youth group to go protest "abortion clinics" so you had 10 and 12 year old out there with signs marching on the sidewalks begging people to not go into that den of horrors. Nevermind that most of the women going in there were just going in for regular health screens. I say all that to just remind people that there's not an insignificant portion of our country that would be just as happy as Pence if they were able to block all access to abortions, no matter any secondary costs like loss of access to healthcare and disease prevention. This one topic has become so overblown and outsized on the list of priorities that it's now become a win at all costs type of scenario. [/quote]

I have extended family with a similar view. It's their driving political issue; they will vote against their self interests on just about any other matter if they believe a candidate's promise to overturn Roe v Wade.

Part of me wonders if the long-term impact of overturning Roe might be positive. The left would be galvanized to donate to causes that educate and provide free services & contraception, while working toward legislation to cement a woman's right to choose in the Constitution.

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community. And maybe another shot at rock & roll and video games.[/quote]

The next wedge issue is welfare. After you disallow abortions, you consign a lot of single mothers into abject poverty because they had no choice over their own bodies. Repubs, feeling righteous about saving lives and following the Ten Commandments will have conveniently forgotten about, oh, the newest half of the Bible they’ve claimed they’ve (and they’ve apparently made all of the us) pay fealty to as our, um moral compass and chief advisor to legislation.

They’ll just conjure the specters of lazy shiftless, criminal rapist minorities to whip their base into a frenzy. You know - their tried and true racist af playbook.

Garrcia wrote:
Mixolyde wrote:
thrawn82 wrote:
Shadout wrote:

Maybe it's a stupid question, but if Roe v Wade was overturned, and the decision goes back to the states, presumably some of the most liberal states would then allow it, right? Would everyone else, from other states, not be able to legally go to those states to get abortions?

Well, i may be misunderstanding it, but without RvW states would be able to pass those "abortion is murder" laws that keep getting shot down and are no popularer in countries which ave banned abortion so even were you to go to the state next door to get an abortion, you could return to a criminal prosecution.

In normal circumstances, the Supreme Court would strike down a law that says "If you get an abortion in another state, it's a crime here," but these are not normal circumstances. And even if those states didn't make it illegal to have an abortion elsewhere, they would make damn sure that every woman who got an abortion would have it become public knowledge.

Beyond whatever legal shenanigans a state that outlaws abortion would attempt I think there is a more practical issue.

With abortion legal in only a few states, and presumably congregated on either coast, it will make it challenging regardless of legal issues for anyone who cannot afford the cost in having to visit what may be a relatively distant local.

In fact some people struggle to get to the few open abortion clinics in some southern states now.

Jayhawker wrote:
JeffreyLSmith wrote:

Part of me wonders if the long-term impact of overturning Roe might be positive. The left would be galvanized to donate to causes that educate and provide free services & contraception, while working toward legislation to cement a woman's right to choose in the Constitution.

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community. And maybe another shot at rock & roll and video games.

I'm not sure I have the proper amount of gall required to explain to my wife and daughter the upside of overturning Roe.

It's more a matter of explaining that it may be a setback, but we're not done fighting for what's right, and noting that we are actually in the majority on this issue. The pendulum ultimately swings toward justice. We just need to scrape off the fascist barnacles that slow it down.

Nevin73 wrote:

In fact some people struggle to get to the few open abortion clinics in some southern states now.

It's not just southern states. Here in Ohio the number of abortion clinics open dropped from 26 in 2011 to just seven this year. Now we basically have one abortion provider for every million women in the state and over half those women live in a county that doesn't have an abortion provider.

Our heavily gerrymandered, Republican-controlled state legislature and Gov. Kasich (who loves to play a moderate Republican on TV while actually being much more of a froth-at-the-mouth conservative) passed a series of laws specifically tailored to shut down abortion clinics in 2013.

While positioned as "health safety laws," they really were designed to force abortion providers to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars they didn't have on renovations and require them to have "agreements" with local hospitals to admit patients if something were to go wrong during a procedure. The last one is the real killer because the law purposely excludes any state-financed hospital and the vast majority of the remaining hospitals in the state are run by Catholic organizations.

On top of that, the law includes a clause that requires women to wait 24 hours before actually getting an abortion, which means that in addition to driving to another city to get an abortion, they now either have to make that drive twice or pay for a hotel. And for an extra heaping of cruelty during that first visit the doctor is required by law to test the fetus' heartbeat and ask the woman if she wants to hear it.

JeffreyLSmith wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
JeffreyLSmith wrote:

Part of me wonders if the long-term impact of overturning Roe might be positive. The left would be galvanized to donate to causes that educate and provide free services & contraception, while working toward legislation to cement a woman's right to choose in the Constitution.

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community. And maybe another shot at rock & roll and video games.

I'm not sure I have the proper amount of gall required to explain to my wife and daughter the upside of overturning Roe.

It's more a matter of explaining that it may be a setback, but we're not done fighting for what's right, and noting that we are actually in the majority on this issue. The pendulum ultimately swings toward justice. We just need to scrape off the fascist barnacles that slow it down.

Yeah, I know what the argument is. It’s the same one used on the LGBTQ community to explain away not voting for Clinton. It doesn’t change the calculus for the amount of gall it takes for a white male to tell the oppressed that it’s okay to stop fighting because we will totally get to it later.

A timely article from five thirty eight with a reminder that the abortion debate is actually not nearly as partisan as it's described.

Jayhawker wrote:
JeffreyLSmith wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
JeffreyLSmith wrote:

Part of me wonders if the long-term impact of overturning Roe might be positive. The left would be galvanized to donate to causes that educate and provide free services & contraception, while working toward legislation to cement a woman's right to choose in the Constitution.

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community. And maybe another shot at rock & roll and video games.

I'm not sure I have the proper amount of gall required to explain to my wife and daughter the upside of overturning Roe.

It's more a matter of explaining that it may be a setback, but we're not done fighting for what's right, and noting that we are actually in the majority on this issue. The pendulum ultimately swings toward justice. We just need to scrape off the fascist barnacles that slow it down.

Yeah, I know what the argument is. It’s the same one used on the LGBTQ community to explain away not voting for Clinton. It doesn’t change the calculus for the amount of gall it takes for a white male to tell the oppressed that it’s okay to stop fighting because we will totally get to it later.

It also presumes that the pendulum always swings toward justice. That's a cute saying, but it's not historically accurate. Most democracies fail eventually. Lots of Europe is turning, too. Assuming that progress will automatically happen and that regular people don't have to do anything is how we got in this mess in the first place. Fascism can and will happen here if we let it, we're not special.

Why don't you morons pass a law instead of this worthless kabuki theatre? Oh that's right... because you're inept.

Senate overwhelmingly rebukes Trump with tariff vote

For the second day in a row, the Senate pushed back on President Donald Trump, showing stiff resistance to his key policy decisions on tariffs and NATO even as the President is at a summit in Europe wrestling with allies over those same issues.
Senators voted overwhelmingly Wednesday calling on Trump to get congressional approval before using national security as a reason for imposing tariffs on other nations, as he did recently with steel and aluminum levies against Mexico, Canada and the European Union.
The bipartisan 88-to-11 tally on the non-binding resolution sends a message to the White House about how frustrated senators are over Trump's disruptive moves on tariffs.
Jayhawker wrote:
JeffreyLSmith wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
JeffreyLSmith wrote:

Part of me wonders if the long-term impact of overturning Roe might be positive. The left would be galvanized to donate to causes that educate and provide free services & contraception, while working toward legislation to cement a woman's right to choose in the Constitution.

The right would be left searching for the next wedge issue to gin up the base. Since gay marriage and alcohol are legal, and marijuana nearly so, the next demon must be the transgender community. And maybe another shot at rock & roll and video games.

I'm not sure I have the proper amount of gall required to explain to my wife and daughter the upside of overturning Roe.

It's more a matter of explaining that it may be a setback, but we're not done fighting for what's right, and noting that we are actually in the majority on this issue. The pendulum ultimately swings toward justice. We just need to scrape off the fascist barnacles that slow it down.

Yeah, I know what the argument is. It’s the same one used on the LGBTQ community to explain away not voting for Clinton. It doesn’t change the calculus for the amount of gall it takes for a white male to tell the oppressed that it’s okay to stop fighting because we will totally get to it later.

If the gall comment is aimed at me I don't know where you get that. Nobody here is saying stop fighting.

Unfortunately there's also a very strong belief among those communities that equate contraception with abortion. Any effort to educate about safe sex or make contraception easily accessible will be fought just as hard, because it was never about the babies and it was always about the sex. Just look at the Hobby Lobby thing, that wasn't about abortion, it was about contraceptives.

If they were honest they would call it pro-gestation.
Because the only thing that matters it the fetus is made come to term. They want to bar conception. There is no support in place once the baby is born. There is no education to help make informed choices about pre-marital sex. They use deception/fraud and bread crumbs to ensure gestation, so it can be argued that there is a lack of support even at that stage. And there is not even any interest in helping during birth.
That is not pro-life.

fangblackbone wrote:
Unfortunately there's also a very strong belief among those communities that equate contraception with abortion. Any effort to educate about safe sex or make contraception easily accessible will be fought just as hard, because it was never about the babies and it was always about the sex. Just look at the Hobby Lobby thing, that wasn't about abortion, it was about contraceptives.

If they were honest they would call it pro-gestation.
Because the only thing that matters it the fetus is made come to term. They want to bar conception. There is no support in place once the baby is born. There is no education to help make informed choices about pre-marital sex. They use deception/fraud and bread crumbs to ensure gestation, so it can be argued that there is a lack of support even at that stage. And there is not even any interest in helping during birth.
That is not pro-life.

Yeah, I'll believe those f*ckers are pro-life when they're calling for:

  • Paid maternity leave and worker's protections so women can't be fired for getting pregnant
  • Free healthcare for pregnant and nursing women (including guaranteed zero dollar bills for any and all births), and free healthcare for kids until they turn 18
  • Comprehensive sex education
  • Actually funding education

Until then, they can rightfully be referred to as pro-unwanted-children.

JC wrote:

Why don't you morons pass a law instead of this worthless kabuki theatre? Oh that's right... because you're inept.

Senate overwhelmingly rebukes Trump with tariff vote

For the second day in a row, the Senate pushed back on President Donald Trump, showing stiff resistance to his key policy decisions on tariffs and NATO even as the President is at a summit in Europe wrestling with allies over those same issues.
Senators voted overwhelmingly Wednesday calling on Trump to get congressional approval before using national security as a reason for imposing tariffs on other nations, as he did recently with steel and aluminum levies against Mexico, Canada and the European Union.
The bipartisan 88-to-11 tally on the non-binding resolution sends a message to the White House about how frustrated senators are over Trump's disruptive moves on tariffs.

How can you say that? Look how loudly they tsked!

...rebukes. Non-binding. Ha. Mighty brave they are, when it doesn't mean anything.

Non-binding resolutions are the step stool to mount one's high horse.

Just saw Trump on the news claiming Russia controls Germany today.

Same old same old. Every time he's guilty of something he tries to accuse someone else of doing the same thing.

Stele wrote:

Just saw Trump on the news claiming Russia controls Germany today.

Same old same old. Every time he's guilty of something he tries to accuse someone else of doing the same thing.

oops!