World Cup 2018 - Russia

These substitutions are Wenger-level bad. If Argentina gets knocked out of group stages, there needs to be a footnote emphasizing how poor the managing was in the 2018 world cup in Messi's legacy story.

Edit: Dybala finally in but taking out Aguero for Higuian does fairly little to change anything if not make things worse.

bigred wrote:

These substitutions are Wenger-level bad. If Argentina gets knocked out of group stages, there needs to be a footnote emphasizing how poor the managing was in the 2018 world cup in Messi's legacy story.

Don't forget 2010 with Jonas Guttierez at leftback.

Edit: Dybala finally in but taking out Aguero for Higuian does fairly little to change anything if not make things worse.

Yeah. Aguero had 7 touches in the first half, Messi 20. The problems were further back than them and while Higuain can be a nice big target up there not addressing the actual problems meant that was a completely wasted sub. I like Dybala coming on but not when that's your last sub and you needed midfield help.

That Messi/Dybala linkup that led to a corner is the skill you'd expect to see from Argentina. Too bad they haven't had the time for a few more chances. Now they hope and pray for Nigeria/Iceland to draw and then beat Iceland.

Croatia is a very good team. I can't think of many performances in this WC thus far better than this one.

Reminder Argentina barley qualified in the first place.

Even if they sneak out 2nd that means they play France first.

Not sure what I think of France if anything they also suffer from poor coaching. Regardless they are pretty cooked as France should mop them up.

Eeesh, Argentina.

Lord knows the discussion gets tiresome, but man, Portugal and Argentina are one-man-teams right now, but Ronaldo has scored all of his team's goals and kept them in range of the knockouts, while Messi has.... welp.

After today I'm theorizing that South America is going through a down period and Europe is the best region by light years.

Argentina has gone from 2nd in WC2014 to barely qualifying and in danger of not making it out of their group. They've managed second in the last two Copas, too.

Chile has won the last two Copas and came second in the Confederations Cup, but failed to qualify.

I'm thinking the overall level of South America teams has homogenized as compared to each other, but fallen drastically compared to Europe.

Even Brazil, who was heralded as the first team to qualify (not counting the hosts) for 2018, were quite underwhelming against Switzerland. If they don't annihilate Costa Rica tomorrow morning, you can take an all-European final to the bank.

Prederick wrote:

Eeesh, Argentina.

Lord knows the discussion gets tiresome, but man, Portugal and Argentina are one-man-teams right now, but Ronaldo has scored all of his team's goals and kept them in range of the knockouts, while Messi has.... welp.

Some players can carry a team - Gerrard, Ronaldo -others can be phenomenally gifted footballers who shine when surrounded by similarly talented players - Messi, Giggs - but who go to pieces when they aren't.

Odd but true. At much as I hate his smug primadonna highness, I have to admit Ronaldo's ability to be able to both carry a team and shine when surrounded by similarity talented players is both really impressive and really irritating.

Prederick wrote:

Eeesh, Argentina.

Lord knows the discussion gets tiresome, but man, Portugal and Argentina are one-man-teams right now, but Ronaldo has scored all of his team's goals and kept them in range of the knockouts, while Messi has.... welp.

The big difference is Portugal are a solid, well-drilled side while Argentina didn't seem to have a plan at either end of the pitch.

But Ronaldo's holdup play to start the counterattack in the match against Spain was otherworldly. Take away the goals and he was still incredible in that opening match.

Roke wrote:

But Ronaldo's holdup play to start the counterattack in the match against Spain was otherworldly. Take away the goals and he was still incredible in that opening match.

Which is a testament to how absurdly fit Ronaldo has kept himself. As Sorbicol noted, I may find him to be a preening git 99% of the time, but he's a comically skilled git with a work ethic up there on that Jordan/Woods/Rice level of utter insanity. I genuinely wonder if he can be a 30-goals-a-year striker at 38, because at this rate, it's not out of the realm of possibility.

One should also note, in his meager defense, Messi did drag this team all the way to the World Cup, but yeah, biggest stage, and dude just hasn't shown up. He's not been helped by incompetent teammates and a useless head coach, but still.

I kinda wish I was living in the (a, really) timeline where Argentina beat Germany in 2014.

...and while I'm at it, one where the US qualified for 2018. And Metallica broke up after the black album.

Oh also, Croatia are the official Dark Horse/Team No-one Wants to Play

Roke wrote:

The big difference is Portugal are a solid, well-drilled side while Argentina didn't seem to have a plan at either end of the pitch.

This. Sampaoli, for whatever reason, seems to have gotten this all wrong. I was listening to a video clip talking about how he doesn't have the players, in particular when you look at Argentina's midfielders. But when you see the number of well drilled underdogs playing strong matches against highly ranked opponents, I don't think the argument holds up. Argentina has enough talent to be dangerous. They've been horribly mismanaged.

It also doesn't help that Messi played a ton of minutes this year. Something like 800 more than Ronaldo. But yes Argentina is also horribly managed.

Prederick wrote:

Oh also, Croatia are the official Dark Horse/Team No-one Wants to Play

Calling Croatia dark horses is stretching it a bit I think. Team nobody wants to play definitely.

I don't really get all the vitriol for Messi and sudden love in for Ronaldo, as if it's always been the case that Ronaldo can single-handedly take games by the scruff of the neck yet Messi can't.

People say Messi can't carry the team, but seem to have totally blocked out the fact he pretty much did carry his country all the way to the final in 2014 (and won the Golden Ball, albeit some people argued he shouldn't have). On top of this, Ronaldo has often been criticised throughout his career for not really turning it on in big international tournaments. In fact in 2014, I'm pretty much sure this same argument was being made but the other way around.

I'm not having a go at Ronaldo, I just think this is a typical football hot take we see these days. Yes, Ronaldo can be a real difference maker, but has himself had this argument thrown at him multiple times. In fact at Man Utd, there were a lot of times when people said he'd sometimes go missing in the big games.

I don't think we should downplay the brilliance of Messi based on 2 World Cup games with a manager who has made some bizarre tactical decisions and squad choices (no Icardi), as others have pointed out. The fact is that he can be a one man team, and often does turn it on when it matters. He's been a bit unlucky with the squad he's in for this World Cup. It is a bit sad we'll likely never see him win the big prize, but it doesn't matter too much to me, I'd rather enjoy him while he's still around playing.

Oh I don't blame Messi for Argentina's woes, I blame their manager. But even so there was absolutely no coherence in that display last night and Messi really didn't do anything to inspire them to even try and get back into it after Calebreo's absolute shocker allowing the first goal (as well taken as it was)

Messi is a phenomenal player to be sure I don't think anyone would dispute that, but clearly, when the chips are down and he knows everyone is basically relying on him he tends to buckle rather than stand up and be counted. Again that's not really a "blame" issue, it's just the way he is.

I don't really agree that he buckles under pressure. I think a lot of this narrative is based on this World Cup alone. As said, in 2014 they did rely on him and he did deliver, particularly against Iran in the last minute when they desperately needed that goal. If Higuain (who really does buckle under pressure) had his shooting boots on they could've won that World Cup. We see time and time again for Barcelona he comes up with important goals, and does totally change games when they need him.

I think you stick Ronaldo in that Argentina squad and they're still going to get beat 3-0.

The argument just goes back and forth between Messi and Ronaldo, despite the fact they're both incredible players who can change games, but do have off days like we all do. If we were to replace these games with, say, the 2009 Champions League final, then people would be saying the exact opposite.

These gorgeous blue away kits make it clear why Brazil only managed a draw against Switzerland - they've only just emerged from Vault '14!

About the best possible result for Argentina with that 2-0 Nigeria win. Fate is in their hand to beat Nigeria and pad that goal differential.

bigred wrote:

About the best possible result for Argentina with that 2-0 Nigeria win. Fate is in their hand to beat Nigeria and pad that goal differential.

I told my Nigerian friends I was pulling for them today. I will avoid them on Tuesday.

Swiss are underrated imo.

They went 9-0-1 in qualifying beating Portugal at home but losing away. Only finished second and went to playoff because of GD.

Tidy bunch of games today.

Sets up Nigeria v Argentina, Brazil v Serbia.

It also sets up Iceland-vs-Croatia. They were in the same qualifying group and Iceland won it, with a home win and away defeat to the Croatians.

I'd like to see Nigeria go through so CAF have a couple teams in the knockout phase, but the funniest timeline is one where the Argentinians beat Nigeria and then find out Iceland also won and are going through on goal difference.

Oof. Just watched Iceland v Nigeria highlights. Gylfi missing that PK may come back to haunt them in a GD tie breaker.

Clusks wrote:

I think you stick Ronaldo in that Argentina squad and they're still going to get beat 3-0.

I did see the point elsewhere that Portugal lost Ronaldo early in the Euro 2016 final and still won, while Argentina didn't have Messi for part of their WC qualifiers and was almost entirely worthless.

Did y'all see the no-call where two Swiss gang-tackled a Serbian in the box? Worst reffing fail of the tournament.

Either the ref or that VAR crew should be sent home immediately. I'm betting the VAR crew told him, because it was blatant, and he refused to review it. If he doesn't want to use VAR then he needs to refuse jobs where it is part of the set-up.

I'm guessing the story will come out very soon as to who screwed that one. Really changed the game.

On the flipside, VAR revoked a soft penalty awarded to Neymar this morning, and THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING 'BOUT!

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Did y'all see the no-call where two Swiss gang-tackled a Serbian in the box? Worst reffing fail of the tournament.

I believe the ref called the foul on Mitrovic (the Serbian) instead of the two Swiss players who tackled him. I was watching with my daughter and we were a bit baffled by that one. I was kind of hoping Switzerland would win, but that seemed like a blatant mugging.

Kane was brought down twice like that in England's first match too. I was reading somewhere that on one of them an English player had blatantly pushed a player on the same play, so that was the reason that the penalty wasn't called, at least in that one instance.

It just doesn't seem like a place that the VAR officials are willing to go. It'd be super interesting to hear their thinking as they decided not to overturn the call on the field against Mitrovic.

Got more Modelo for today's games. Let the prognostication begin!

Well that was an easy PK.

Missed the penalty as I was making breakfast but saw the goal.

Oh that was pretty.

And I do love Belgian beer.

Edit: Tunisia not quitting. Wow.

What a great pass.