2017/18 Soccer Thread

jowner wrote:

Not sure if I'm buying the doom post Wenger analysis. They went and got the guy from Barca and Dortmund for a reason. The real question is Wenger going to even leave this year and if so who's coming in, how many of the current squad can work in that managers system and in turn how many players need to come in then.

So I'm really late to responding to this (I hope you don't mind jowner), but there are two factors in my mind.

The first is that even though Arsenal are at least laying the groundwork for a post-Wenger world by already hiring a bunch of people who will replace him you're going to have to get most, if not all, of those right to push back into a fairly consistent top-4 finisher. I'd bet on Dortmund guy being good because their transfer business has been great for a while, Barca guy I'd bet on being bad because their off-pitch operations have been abysmal.

They also do have StatDNA in the background and every person I know with even a passing involvement or interest in analytics think they're great but they've either had zero influence to this point or they're actually bad. It's probably the former, but in a post-Wenger world you're going to have to integrate a bunch of people into the process in a very short time.

Secondly, the squad is actually quite old. It's Ferguson-esque in his last few years.

Arsenal's U-25 first-teamers (guys of an age where improvement wouldn't be shocking) are Bellerin (the only U-25 star in my books), Kolasinac, Iwobi, Chambers, Holding, Mavropanos, Maitland-Niles. The two fullbacks are good, the rest are probably squad players for a team of Arsenal's ambitions though. Throw in the U-28ers above 24 (consensus of peak age in football being 24-28 in the analytics circles I follow) and you add Ramsey, Wilshere, Mustafi,Welbeck, Xhaka, and Elneny.

So of the key players only the two fullbacks, Ramsey, and Mustafi are in the prime of their careers. Everyone else is of the age where you'd expect them to decline, but Arsenal need to make a fairly big leap forward to get back to where they should be. That's going to take hundreds of millions of pounds, and it'll be a new regime settling into their post-Wenger role that will be trying to get the transfers right.

Roke wrote:

So of the key players only the two fullbacks, Ramsey, and Mustafi are in the prime of their careers.

Prime of their careers ? By Christ.

Bellerin got taken to the cleaners by Sane and has regressed massively this season. Mustafi is just abysmal - he makes Mangala look like Franco Baresi.

That squad needs a total rebuild - there's only Aubemayang and Mikhitaryn who would conceivably start for any other of the top 4 teams, and the latter is at a pinch. The defence are woeful, Xhaka can't do anything particularly well, and if there were ever two players who exemplify the phrase 'flatter to deceive', then Ramsey and Wilshere are they.

Speaking of old, I would like to point out that at the beginning of the year I was making an argument that Barcelona was done for because of the advanced age of their players, and how Real Madrid was better positioned for a run of glory with their depth and youth.

I totally nailed that.

Godzilla Blitz wrote:

Speaking of old, I would like to point out that at the beginning of the year I was making an argument that Barcelona was done for because of the advanced age of their players, and how Real Madrid was better positioned for a run of glory with their depth and youth.

I totally nailed that.

I definitely was saying the same thing about Barca and though I didn't think the drop-off would happen this year (though it was a possibility in my mind I probably said out loud) I still think there's going to be a drop-off from age eventually. At least they've slotted in Coutinho as a capable Iniesta replacement.

IMAGE(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/FCEE/production/_100305746_rexfeatures_mitrovic.jpg)

3-0. 29 points from 11 games in 2018.

I don't even know what to say anymore.

Godzilla Blitz wrote:

Speaking of old, I would like to point out that at the beginning of the year I was making an argument that Barcelona was done for because of the advanced age of their players, and how Real Madrid was better positioned for a run of glory with their depth and youth.

I totally nailed that.

That's okay, someone in this thread shat all over Kane maybe two years ago when I mentioned him as an excellent player. There's a lot of wild takes just being flung out there.

Prederick wrote:

IMAGE(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/FCEE/production/_100305746_rexfeatures_mitrovic.jpg)

3-0. 29 points from 11 games in 2018.

I don't even know what to say anymore.

When we were in London last spring, we went and saw a Fulham game. So glad to see they're doing so well this year. It'd be awesome if they make the jump!

Tottenham Hotspur and the art of almost.

Oh, Spurs.

I don't follow the Champions League until the quarterfinals but that seems to be a Spursy result.

But I thought it was job done, man clearly learned nothing from Billy Davies

Spurs - the 2014 Liverpool.

I watched the whole game. Tottenham had it in their hands. It was right there, and then it wasn't.

Like I said....Mauricio Pochettino, the Brendan Rogers de nos jours.

And no, winning titles in Scotland counts for jack sh*t. Refer to their CL performance.

That is a strong result for Arsenal. Wenger still needs to go, though.

Roke wrote:
jowner wrote:

Not sure if I'm buying the doom post Wenger analysis. They went and got the guy from Barca and Dortmund for a reason. The real question is Wenger going to even leave this year and if so who's coming in, how many of the current squad can work in that managers system and in turn how many players need to come in then.

So I'm really late to responding to this (I hope you don't mind jowner), but there are two factors in my mind.

The first is that even though Arsenal are at least laying the groundwork for a post-Wenger world by already hiring a bunch of people who will replace him you're going to have to get most, if not all, of those right to push back into a fairly consistent top-4 finisher. I'd bet on Dortmund guy being good because their transfer business has been great for a while, Barca guy I'd bet on being bad because their off-pitch operations have been abysmal.

They also do have StatDNA in the background and every person I know with even a passing involvement or interest in analytics think they're great but they've either had zero influence to this point or they're actually bad. It's probably the former, but in a post-Wenger world you're going to have to integrate a bunch of people into the process in a very short time.

Secondly, the squad is actually quite old. It's Ferguson-esque in his last few years.

Arsenal's U-25 first-teamers (guys of an age where improvement wouldn't be shocking) are Bellerin (the only U-25 star in my books), Kolasinac, Iwobi, Chambers, Holding, Mavropanos, Maitland-Niles. The two fullbacks are good, the rest are probably squad players for a team of Arsenal's ambitions though. Throw in the U-28ers above 24 (consensus of peak age in football being 24-28 in the analytics circles I follow) and you add Ramsey, Wilshere, Mustafi,Welbeck, Xhaka, and Elneny.

So of the key players only the two fullbacks, Ramsey, and Mustafi are in the prime of their careers. Everyone else is of the age where you'd expect them to decline, but Arsenal need to make a fairly big leap forward to get back to where they should be. That's going to take hundreds of millions of pounds, and it'll be a new regime settling into their post-Wenger role that will be trying to get the transfers right.

I don't think they are going to bounce back into the top 4 quickly by any means.

But I don't see things getting worse then this year if they swapped managers.

If anything same as this year maybe some improvement depending on the manager + transfers.

Thing is besides City all the club's infront of them are not nailed on to finish in the top 4 next year imo. Maybe United and not because I rate them but Mourinho is willing to win ugly to get results.

If Liverpool/Spurs have a dodgy season next year no one should be surprised. Chelsea? Is Conte even there next year?

LOL

Barcelona manager Ernesto Valverde called the possibility of Neymar's return to his club "a fantasy" after reports published in Spain on Friday said the Brazilian has asked to come back to the Camp Nou, while also linking him to a €400 million move to Real Madrid.

Mundo Deportivo cited unnamed sources as saying that Neymar has sent Barcelona messages about the possibility of a return after leaving the club last summer to sign with Paris Saint-Germain, who paid a world-record transfer fee of €222m to activate his buyout clause.

Meanwhile, AS reported that Barcelona's rivals Real Madrid have already told Neymar's father, who also serves as his manager, that they are willing to pay nearly double that amount and meet PSG's asking price of €400m.

Even for someone who is pro-player "get the money while you can," Neymar comes off like a truly mercenary schmuck.

Arsene Wenger: Arsenal fans hate the manager, not me personally

Erm...... Arsene?

The idiot who is the chairman of La Liga is always moaning about Premiership teams spending sh*tloads of money (*cough* Dembele, Coutinho, illegal state aid to RM *cough*). If either of those two splash out €400m for Neymar, then he should appear in the centre circle at the club who pays that with a strip of gaffer tape over his mouth.

And if he's worth €400m, then Messi is worth his €600m buyout clause without a shadow of a doubt, because he's that much better than Neymar. At least.

Might be €800m, as Messi is professional, and not a professional prat.

Its a Liverpool v United u20 game.

Rashford vs Arnold 2-0.

Had my alarm set to watch the Man Utd-Liverpool match but decided to head back to sleep because daylight savings is going to be the worst tomorrow.

Southampton... do not look good. When you concede in the 1st minute against a team around you in the table I expect you to look the better side just because of score effects. They did not.

West Ham are in free-fall, and West Brom are nailed on for relegation, but I definitely fear for Southampton.

What does their run-in look like?

Dimmerswitch wrote:

West Ham are in free-fall, and West Brom are nailed on for relegation, but I definitely fear for Southampton.

What does their run-in look like?

West Ham (A), Arsenal (A), Chelsea (H), Leicester (A), Bournemouth (H), Everton (A), Man City (H).

I don't know if that's tougher than the teams around them but more away than home makes things a little more difficult.

Apparently there was fighting in the stands at West Ham's game today? Saw a photo tweet from a journo of kids sitting on Burnley's bench because of it.

I think it would be fun to see Moyes get relegated in back-to-back seasons. It also looks like Sunderland are going to get relegated from the Championship.

There were a couple of pitch invasions after West Ham went behind, as fans went towards the Director's Box to remonstrate with the West Ham ownership.

Probably didn't help that they conceded another 2 goals, but the stewarding appears to have been totally inadequate, and there were significant numbers of police in the stadium by the end.

Massive fine coming up, West Ham better pray that there's no points deduction as well, as they are getting battered on a regular basis now.

Oh, and apparently Burnley's 3rd came from a proper Joe Hart clanger.

West Ham should have their home stadium closed for at least one game after that, although saying that, it’d probably be more reward than punishment to the fans.

Mitroviiiiiiiiiiiiic!

Y'know, this season was a LOT easier when I didn't have hope. We are now speeding towards a place where if we don't get promoted, it'll be a real disappointment.

Prederick wrote:

Mitroviiiiiiiiiiiiic!

Y'know, this season was a LOT easier when I didn't have hope. We are now speeding towards a place where if we don't get promoted, it'll be a real disappointment.

In extra time no less! Wow!

@MarkFinnigan79 wrote:

David Moyes could take Sunderland and West Ham down in consecutive years and still have a year left on his original United contract

IMAGE(https://media.giphy.com/media/lI6nHr5hWXlu0/giphy.gif)

davet010 wrote:

There were a couple of pitch invasions after West Ham went behind, as fans went towards the Director's Box to remonstrate with the West Ham ownership.

Probably didn't help that they conceded another 2 goals, but the stewarding appears to have been totally inadequate, and there were significant numbers of police in the stadium by the end.

Massive fine coming up, West Ham better pray that there's no points deduction as well, as they are getting battered on a regular basis now.

Oh, and apparently Burnley's 3rd came from a proper Joe Hart clanger.

West Ham's "new" stadium is the old Olympic Park Athletics Stadium built for London 2012. They did a lot of work to it (at considerable cost to UK tax payers) to try and turn it into an all-seater football stadium after a lot of argument - It still hosts an athletics track for example but there are some very expensive extendable seats that cover it during football matches, plus at the time Tottenham Hotspur were extremely interested in taking on the site while poor old Layton Orient, the football club the London Stadium is in the "catchment area" for were mostly ignored because they are a lower division club.

However, after a couple of court battles West Ham got to rent the stadium for a 99 year lease (I think - it might be 999 years) for a song (about £1.5 million a year rent I think - pittance for a Premier League football club) while still have the tax payer responsible for upkeep of the stadium (tens of Millions a year) and the club keeping all the match day revenue. It is, to be blunt, an incredibly favourable deal for West Ham all things considered - and one that should give them a material advantage in the league with a 60,000 seater stadium for which they pay practically nothing.

However, that meant moving from West Ham's traditional homeland in the East End of London which a lot of fans were understandably very upset about. The London Stadium is a very bad stadium for football - you spectate miles from the pitch, its very large with multiple routes from the stands to the pitch making security a nightmare, and any atmosphere the fans do try to generate tends to evaporate up and out of the stadium rather than get reflected back onto the pitch. Their old Stadium (The Boleyn Ground) was a pressure cooker for the opposition when the fans got going (I know, I've been there)

My Best Friend is a West Ham supporter and he hates the new Stadium, while at the same time recognising it was pretty much the only way West Ham were going to get access to a modern, 60,000 seater stadium. This has been brewing for quite some time. The owners have owned several football clubs now with a poor track record of success, and coupled with the club's poor performances at the moment it's boiling over.

What I'm trying to say is that while the behaviour today was inexcusable it wasn't exactly for no reason. Some (admittedly a small minority) of West Ham's fans still live in the 1970s to be honest and have quite a reputation (for the UK) for poor behaviour which sure as hell doesn't help and this isn't the first time there has been crowd trouble at the ground. I doubt they'll get points deducted, probably just having to play behind closed doors. I'd also imagine that they are going to have to have a massive police presence at their remaining home games this season, and have to foot the bill too.

I dunno why I just typed all that out, I should probably get out more.

Sorbicol wrote:

I dunno why I just typed all that out, I should probably get out more.

Hey, it was a good post.

This is only an impression from looking at the map, but I'm struck by how there's basically nothing around the London stadium. I guess that's what happens when you put the thing in the middle of a park but the pre and post match fan experience must be pretty bad out there.

Catching up on Saturday's highlights I'm surprised MOTD showed the pitch invaders. I thought broadcasters usually don't do that.

Edit: oh wow, Hart on Burnley's 3rd. I don't like Elliot or Darlow but Hart would be 4th-choice behind them (and Dúbravka who looks good).

Roke wrote:
Sorbicol wrote:

I dunno why I just typed all that out, I should probably get out more.

Hey, it was a good post.

This is only an impression from looking at the map, but I'm struck by how there's basically nothing around the London stadium. I guess that's what happens when you put the thing in the middle of a park but the pre and post match fan experience must be pretty bad out there.

Catching up on Saturday's highlights I'm surprised MOTD showed the pitch invaders. I thought broadcasters usually don't do that.

Edit: oh wow, Hart on Burnley's 3rd. I don't like Elliot or Darlow but Hart would be 4th-choice behind them (and Dúbravka who looks good).

It's no worse than Wembley which really is in the arse end of nowhere (for London) I went to University in Cardiff, and the Arms Park (as it was then - they started building the Millenium Stadium just as I was leaving) is right in the city centre which makes for one of the best match day experiences in the UK - Murrayfield in Edinburgh ain't bad either. Plus the Olympic park is well served by The Underground, so getting in and out isn't that much of an issue.

As for the "pitch Invasion" it was less an invasion as a gatecrash to be honest, i think you could count the number of fans on the pitch on the fingers of one hand for the most part. There were a lot more chanting and hurling abuse at Sullivan & Gold than there was ever invading the pitch. West Ham aren't quite tearing themselves apart as the more hysterical sections of the press and the internet would have it, but they are not happy. Some of that is unrealistic expectations from the fans (really, West Ham haven't been a "big club" since the 1960s at best) a lot of it is stupid promises made by the Owners - although again, the fans believing them is probably more stupid. They have every right to be cross from where I stand, but there are much better ways to express that anger.

as for Hart, if he makes it to Russia for the World Cup then Southgate really really needs to be put out of his misery sooner rather than later