NFL 2017 Super Bowl Thread

Gawd, Baker Mayfield to the Browns talk is hilarious. He brings Manziel-esque traits of being an issue off the field, but also has a tendency to bail on the pocket early and try and make plays on his own.

Like, will the Browns really take the same player twice?

The (effective) last play in the Jags-Pats game where the Pats ran for a 1st down to seal the game, well, Ben Muth points out that the block by Dwayne Allen was legal:

This is just an outside zone with a BOSS concept (back on strong safety), but holy crap is Dwayne Allen (83) good here. Actually, good is an understatement -- Allen is perfect here. First he knocks the defensive end (Jackson, 97) onto Solder, but he does it without getting his outside hand involved so he can still climb quickly to the outside linebacker (Telvin Smith, 50). Then he blocks the outside linebacker so well that the middle linebacker (Paul Posluszny, 51) can't get around the block despite being unblocked himself.

And that is not a hold on the linebacker. It just isn't. I am as tired of New England winning as anyone, but that simply isn't a hold. It's great blocking.

garion333 wrote:

Gawd, Baker Mayfield to the Browns talk is hilarious. He brings Manziel-esque traits of being an issue off the field, but also has a tendency to bail on the pocket early and try and make plays on his own.

Like, will the Browns really take the same player twice?

It is the Browns. I think it is 70% likely they do.

LeapingGnome wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Gawd, Baker Mayfield to the Browns talk is hilarious. He brings Manziel-esque traits of being an issue off the field, but also has a tendency to bail on the pocket early and try and make plays on his own.

Like, will the Browns really take the same player twice?

It is the Browns. I think it is 70% likely they do.

Only after they pay a consultant that tells them to draft Lamar Jackson.

Stele wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Gawd, Baker Mayfield to the Browns talk is hilarious. He brings Manziel-esque traits of being an issue off the field, but also has a tendency to bail on the pocket early and try and make plays on his own.

Like, will the Browns really take the same player twice?

It is the Browns. I think it is 70% likely they do.

Only after they pay a consultant that tells them to draft Lamar Jackson.

What about the homeless guy outside the stadium? Which way does he draft this time?

I'm looking forward to the Browns taking two QBs with the 1st and 4th, running a game-show style reality show (maybe Hard Knocks?) to see who wins the starting job, the loser getting cut, and winning the Superb Owl that year for someone else (Ravens, maybe).

UpToIsomorphism wrote:

I'm looking forward to the Browns taking two QBs with the 1st and 4th, running a game-show style reality show (maybe Hard Knocks?) to see who wins the starting job, the loser getting cut, and winning the Superb Owl that year for someone else (Ravens, maybe).

Hey, it's not that crazy.

Dallas spent both 1989 and 1990's #1 overall draft picks on quarterbacks, and did it in the same year (their selection of Steve Walsh in the 1989 supplemental draft cost them their 1st round pick in 1990, which would have been #1 overall).

A franchise quarterback is easily worth two 1st round choices, even two top 5 ones. If you could absolutely guarantee that one of the two would become a franchise QB, it'd be worth it.

Nobody sweats Dallas for the pick they "wasted" on Walsh - hell, they didn't even waste the pick. They turned around and traded Walsh for a 1st and a 3rd from New Orleans in 1990, after Aikman had clearly won the spot.

With quarterbacks becoming more and more valuable, and the league becoming less trade-averse, I am waiting for the day when a GM has the balls to do this. Of course, when Dallas did it, it was Jerruh's doing, and he had nobody above him that he had to answer to. But regardless, it's still one of my favorite draft moves.

I feel like you should keep drafting quarterbacks until one of them makes you stop. (It doesn't always have to be 1st round picks, but I am talking investing real draft capital.) If you find a guy and end up with extra QB talent on the bench, trade them away. Flip those Steve Walsh, Mark Brunell, Matt Hasselbeck, Jimmy Garoppolo guys for some picks.

Of course, there's always this way:

... which is exactly what I said in the last thread that I think they should do. Especially if they can extend Alex Smith with a contract that would not be too rich to keep as a backup in 2019 and beyond.

The way I would do it would be to structure the base compensation of the deal to be high backup money, and then fill it with incentives that boost it into starter money in the event that Alex plays as the starter for the team any year after 2018.

Bottom line either way: fill your quarterback's room with guys that can play, and sort them out later.

*Legion* wrote:

Of course, there's always this way:

... which is exactly what I said in the last thread that I think they should do. Especially if they can extend Alex Smith with a contract that would not be too rich to keep as a backup in 2019 and beyond.

The way I would do it would be to structure the base compensation of the deal to be high backup money, and then fill it with incentives that boost it into starter money in the event that Alex plays as the starter for the team any year after 2018.

Bottom line either way: fill your quarterback's room with guys that can play, and sort them out later.

Bzzt.. not nearly Clevelandy enough.. They trade both their first round picks to the Eagles for Super Bowl MVP Nick Foles.

TheGameguru wrote:

Bzzt.. not nearly Clevelandy enough.. They trade both their first round picks to the Eagles for Super Bowl MVP Nick Foles.

Your team better make that Super Bowl win happen.

*Legion* wrote:
UpToIsomorphism wrote:

I'm looking forward to the Browns taking two QBs with the 1st and 4th, running a game-show style reality show (maybe Hard Knocks?) to see who wins the starting job, the loser getting cut, and winning the Superb Owl that year for someone else (Ravens, maybe).

Hey, it's not that crazy.

Are there really two QBs worth taking a risk on this draft? I realize we're really early in this process, but this class feels wide but not horribly deep to me. Decent potential, but not enough star potential.

Or maybe that's exactly the year to do it. You don't draft Andrew Luck and then someone else too.

garion333 wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
UpToIsomorphism wrote:

I'm looking forward to the Browns taking two QBs with the 1st and 4th, running a game-show style reality show (maybe Hard Knocks?) to see who wins the starting job, the loser getting cut, and winning the Superb Owl that year for someone else (Ravens, maybe).

Hey, it's not that crazy.

Are there really two QBs worth taking a risk on this draft? I realize we're really early in this process, but this class feels wide but not horribly deep to me. Decent potential, but not enough star potential.

Or maybe that's exactly the year to do it. You don't draft Andrew Luck and then someone else too.

IMAGE(http://u.cubeupload.com/MilkmanDanimal/kirk.png)

Robert Mays has an article over at Grantland The Ringer about the Eagles' offensive line. Mays is a big fan of line play, so I'm always happy when he gets a chance to write about em.

How Philly deploys Kelce is probably the biggest departure from other offenses around the league. Most teams are reluctant to pull their center, thus leaving themselves vulnerable to interior defensive linemen creating penetration up the middle. Yet the Eagles actively seek out chances to get Kelce on the move with the goal of blocking defenders on the second level. One of their favorite designs involves Kelce pulling around a guard with a pin-and-pull concept while running inside zone. On most inside-zone runs, a team’s guard and center initially double-team a defensive tackle before the guard works up to the linebacker. Philly cuts out the middleman. Instead of using a double-team, the guard blocks down on the defensive tackle and Kelce loops around to take care of the linebacker.

IMAGE(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10116171/ezgif.com_optimize__21_.gif)

This approach guarantees that the Eagles get a lineman to the second level, something they do more efficiently than any other offense in football. Head coach Doug Pederson and his staff consistently devise plays that allow at least one Philly lineman to release to a linebacker without even having to worry about blocking the defender in front of him. Kelce is often able to work toward the inside linebacker immediately because the angles created for Brooks and left guard Stefen Wisniewski are advantageous enough that they don’t need any help. By not wasting time moving to the second level, Kelce can clear out linebackers who otherwise might have a free shot at a running back. Instead of having to make defenders miss in the hole, Eagles’ backs are asked only to find slivers of daylight between all of the occupied defenders.

Special mention on the last play Mays highlights is that backup (currently starting) LT Vaitai whiffs completely and the play almost dies because of it. I expect that's true on almost every play he's involved in. I expect the Pats to constantly target him. James Harrison is likely to crush him over and over again.

I have no emotional attraction to this particular SB -- I don't care one way or another about either team -- but I can't wait to see what the Pats dial up to counter Foles, etc. The Eagles do a lot of clever, sophisticated stuff on offense. There could be a lot of 13-dimensional chess played on Sunday.

What's the word on Gronk? Anyone know if he's playing?

garion333 wrote:

Are there really two QBs worth taking a risk on this draft? I realize we're really early in this process, but this class feels wide but not horribly deep to me. Decent potential, but not enough star potential.

Or maybe that's exactly the year to do it. You don't draft Andrew Luck and then someone else too.

Or you do with an eye to trade one. That's the other half of it. If you go back and watch Troy Aikman's "Football Life" show, Jimmy Johnson talks about drafting Steve Walsh. He said he wasn't 100% certain on Aikman, but also that he saw Walsh as a tradeable asset. In the end, it worked out exactly that way, and Jimmy got his investment back on his QB insurance policy.

It doesn't have to be first round picks only, as Milkman accurately points out with the Cousins pic, but it's got to be guys who aren't just late round clipboard holders.

Draft QBs until a guy makes you stop.

Stefen Wisniewski is underrated, and I was unhappy when the Jaguars let him walk. At that time, though, he was insisting on trying to make it as a center, and it was all the center stuff that was the weakest part of his game - he made some bad snaps. Philly took him in free agency when he wasn't getting much interest, and it was like, "yeah we have Jason Kelce, go line your ass up at left guard". And it's been good for him.

*Legion* wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Are there really two QBs worth taking a risk on this draft? I realize we're really early in this process, but this class feels wide but not horribly deep to me. Decent potential, but not enough star potential.

Or maybe that's exactly the year to do it. You don't draft Andrew Luck and then someone else too.

Or you do with an eye to trade one. That's the other half of it. If you go back and watch Troy Aikman's "Football Life" show, Jimmy Johnson talks about drafting Steve Walsh. He said he wasn't 100% certain on Aikman, but also that he saw Walsh as a tradeable asset. In the end, it worked out exactly that way, and Jimmy got his investment back on his QB insurance policy.

It doesn't have to be first round picks only, as Milkman accurately points out with the Cousins pic, but it's got to be guys who aren't just late round clipboard holders.

Draft QBs until a guy makes you stop.

Actually, let me revise what I said. My above comment was in relation to players at the Senior Bowl, which means that Josh Rosen (or Sam Darnold) wasn't a part of the conversation. There probably is enough talent going around for the Browns to take two QBs, but I still think spending two top 5 picks on QBs is crazy, even for Cleveland. The Cowboys used a supplemental pick on Walsh, right? That made it a "lesser" undefined future pick. If they had know they were giving up the 1st overall would they have drafted Walsh? I'm less sure about that.

In the end it all worked out for the Cowboys, but it was hella weird.

garion333 wrote:

The Cowboys used a supplemental pick on Walsh, right? That made it a "lesser" undefined future pick. If they had know they were giving up the 1st overall would they have drafted Walsh? I'm less sure about that.

In the end it all worked out for the Cowboys, but it was hella weird.

Yes, it was not known ahead of time where their 1990 pick would rank, but this was also a last-place team starting a complete rebuild from scratch. Remember, this was the same year as the Herschel Walker trade, as well as an immense amount of turnover in the roster and organization. Dallas was in full-on burn it down mode, and I'm pretty sure every sports publication predicted the Cowboys to end up last place or close to it again. The Cowboys let go of that pick knowing full well it was going to be a very early selection.

In 2018 Cleveland's case, yes, taking two QBs in the top 5 might be extreme. And it's not going to be necessary because I expect they're going to trade one of those 2nds for Alex Smith and then spend the #1 pick on a QB, and that counts. That's stocking your QB room with talent, and investing draft capital to do it. And doing it a year after they spent a 2nd on another QB, Kizer. That's gonna be one 1 and two 2s they've spent on QBs in two years. That's pretty good.

Just speaking in the abstract, though, I want to see have-not teams more aggressively draft the QB position, and spending multiple 1sts may be very aggressive, but it's not crazy.

Not crazy? Guess they won't do it then.

Who has 22 this year?

How the hell did Cleveland let that happen?

Why am I asking a stupid question?

*Legion* wrote:

How the hell did Cleveland let that happen?

Why am I asking a stupid question?

Apparently they tried to trade for him and couldn’t. Very Browns.

garion333 wrote:

Who has 22 this year?

Originally Kansas City, but sent to Buffalo last year in the Mahomes pick trade. Buffalo's own original pick is right before it, #21.

Rat Boy disappoints. Can’t believe you did not write:

Mr. Smith goes to Washington.

PFT is saying it's a $94 million four-year deal, with $71 million guaranteed. That's a projected million dollars for each expected air yard Alex Smith throws past the line of scrimmage, presuming he plays all four years of the deal.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

PFT is saying it's a $94 million four-year deal, with $71 million guaranteed. That's a projected million dollars for each expected air yard Alex Smith throws past the line of scrimmage, presuming he plays all four years of the deal.

It's also the projected air yards Mahomes will throw past the line of scrimmage on his first pass of the game next season.

Browns tried to trade for Alex Smith.

LOL what is with this franchise and failed QB trades?

Worst of all, apparently the deal is for a 3rd round pick and a player. No word who the player is yet, but a team with three 2nd round picks shouldn't be losing out on this trade.

That is, until they are able to lock in Cousins with a contract.

*Legion* wrote:

Browns tried to trade for Alex Smith.

LOL what is with this franchise and failed QB trades?

Worst of all, apparently the deal is for a 3rd round pick and a player. No word who the player is yet, but a team with three 2nd round picks shouldn't be losing out on this trade.

Alex Smith probably told the Chiefs he'd rather retire than play in Cleveland.

Is Cousins demanding more than $94m over four years? Seems like they could have just kept him at that price. I think Smith is a side grade at best so I don’t really understand trading for him unless Cousins is just refusing to sign.