[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

JeremyK wrote:

Not sure if this is the proper place but does anyone else that's not planning on having kids ever get sick of the constant lectures, that isn't really the right word but at times it feels like it, from anyone that finds out(friends, family, coworkers, etc). I imagine it's a million times worse for a woman that doesn't want kids.

I just don't really understand why people feel it's appropriate to put that kind of pressure on people to do something they don't want to do. Even more so when it involves something as life changing and important as having/raising kids. How much do you think that pressure on a society level leads to bad relationships and bad parents?

I don't get those, but I think being a youngish male and not officially married keeps that away. My fiancee gets it pretty bad, especially since she deals with the public a lot.

Apparently it's a taboo subject on the forums here. Perhaps https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/ would be a better resource.

Sorry about that. I didn't realize it was a taboo subject.

Jolly Bill wrote:
DanB wrote:

If the world needs a new 'who pays on the first date?' rule of thumb I would be super happy with 'whoever did the asking out'

I'd be interested in talking that out a bit but I'd like to point out that there are some very clear power dynamics at play with that kind of a system. It's marginally better than 'men do the asking out and are expected to pay' but it's still very vulnerable to class issues (where people would generally feel more comfortable asking out people who are financially less well off from themselves and nervous asking out people who are likely more financially well off). It's vulnerable to the same gender stereotypes and issues just without making them explicit.

My statement was a notion lifted from some gay friends of mine. FWIW I don't think a new norm can emerge on this issue until men and women are profoundly more equal than they are today.

Maq wrote:
JeremyK wrote:

Not sure if this is the proper place but does anyone else that's not planning on having kids ever get sick of the constant lectures, that isn't really the right word but at times it feels like it, from anyone that finds out(friends, family, coworkers, etc). I imagine it's a million times worse for a woman that doesn't want kids.

FWIW having been on both sides of this particular fence the judgmental crap doesn't stop when you have kids. It just becomes about how you're parenting wrong.

Some people are just assholes who want to tell you how to live your life.

Also, threads on this particular topic have been locked more than once so I'd just as rather swerve it here.

Yep. I don’t understand how complete strangers think it’s perfectly acceptable to tell you how you should be raising your kid. I used to get it a lot from older women when my son was young, with a certain “well as a dad you probably don’t know this but...” in the way I was handling melt downs. I believe in a kind but firm style which from what I can tell is not well received in the Seattle area. Also, I hate being seen as incompetent because I’m a dad. Not saying that dads have it worse than moms but dad as incompetent idiot is pretty deeply ingrained in modern American culture. See Homer Simpson, Al Bundy, Walter White, Phil Dunfy, etc.

EDIT - not trying to start parent war 2.0 but I think it’s helpful to share our frustrations as dads (or men who don’t choose to be dads).

jdzappa wrote:

Not saying that dads have it worse than moms but dad as incompetent idiot is pretty deeply ingrained in modern American culture. See Homer Simpson, Al Bundy, Walter White, Phil Dunfy, etc.

On the flip side - woo-hoo for low expectations! Being a moderately competent parent gets me mad props from random nosy older women!

There is, in my experience, an enormous generational gap here. Women who are my age-group or younger don't bat an eyelid about me being an engaged dad out and about with my daughter. Step up a generation though, and there's a preponderance of "I think it's so wonderful you're taking an interest."

You left out Ray Ramano. Holy crap.

Just to put a firm button on it here, the discussion about having kids or not is out of scope for this thread. Same with parenting methods or being a good dad.

I'd also gently point out that veering a feminism thread toward 'who pays for the check?' is playing it pretty safe here.

I'd be curious to know what underlies the concern about who picks up the check. What is it symbolic of? What does it mean for you when you pick up the check? What does it mean if the other person does? What are we quietly saying when we pay or don't pay?

Do you feel differently about it today than you did five years ago? Why?

Certis wrote:

Just to put a firm button on it here, the discussion about having kids or not is out of scope for this thread. Same with parenting methods or being a good dad.

I'd also gently point out that veering a feminism thread toward 'who pays for the check?' is playing it pretty safe here.

I'd be curious to know what underlies the concern about who picks up the check. What is it symbolic of? What does it mean for you when you pick up the check? What does it mean if the other person does? What are we quietly saying when we pay or don't pay?

Do you feel differently about it today than you did five years ago? Why?

I would think the expectations of having kids is big part of feminism. For me it is interesting to see if men and women are being pressured in the same way and that would be a major point for a feminist. Then in leads into other areas like how much sh*t a guy gets for staying home to raise the kids or how much women get for not doing this. Or is these things a thing of the past for the most part.

I come here for the hot check takes to fulfill my daily drama.

Baron Of Hell wrote:
Certis wrote:

Just to put a firm button on it here, the discussion about having kids or not is out of scope for this thread. Same with parenting methods or being a good dad.

I'd also gently point out that veering a feminism thread toward 'who pays for the check?' is playing it pretty safe here.

I'd be curious to know what underlies the concern about who picks up the check. What is it symbolic of? What does it mean for you when you pick up the check? What does it mean if the other person does? What are we quietly saying when we pay or don't pay?

Do you feel differently about it today than you did five years ago? Why?

I would think the expectations of having kids is big part of feminism. For me it is interesting to see if men and women are being pressured in the same way and that would be a major point for a feminist. Then in leads into other areas like how much sh*t a guy gets for staying home to raise the kids or how much women get for not doing this. Or is these things a thing of the past for the most part.

By all means, make a new thread if you’d like to pursue it. I think it’s adjascent but would probably take us fairly far afield.

For clarity, I’m including the original post from Maq as part of the thread’s scope and intent.

Maq wrote:

Guys, we can spin off our thoughts about feminism here without drowning out women's voices on other threads.

Share your stories; what you've learnt and would like to learn; amplify the voices of women who've written about this so other women don't have to explain it to you.

Let's also talk about masculinity – toxic and otherwise – and how expected gender roles shape our own problems such as increased suicide rates, being both primary victims and perpetrators of violence, and how we break out of a culture that actively resists men taking about this stuff.

And let's ruthlessly mock PUAs and MRAs cos screw those guys

It's important for men to talk to men about this stuff.

Links and such:

https://goodmenproject.com/
http://www.menandboyscoalition.org.uk/

Certis wrote:

I'd also gently point out that veering a feminism thread toward 'who pays for the check?' is playing it pretty safe here.

I'd be curious to know what underlies the concern about who picks up the check. What is it symbolic of? What does it mean for you when you pick up the check? What does it mean if the other person does? What are we quietly saying when we pay or don't pay?

Do you feel differently about it today than you did five years ago? Why?

Personally, unless there was some discussion up frount, I would just pick up the tab if on a date; for me that has more to do with making life easier for the wait staff, and avoiding potentially awkward money related issues such as price point sensitivity or what if the other person over/under tips relative to what I think is appropriate.

On normal dates I think the bill should be split within reason but I'm not going to make a big deal over it. I think many women will insist on paying their half just to remove the expectation of sex. I personally don't think paying for everything means sexy time but I think many guys think that way. This is compounded by dating services being used more for sex than relationships.

jdzappa wrote:
Maq wrote:
JeremyK wrote:

Not sure if this is the proper place but does anyone else that's not planning on having kids ever get sick of the constant lectures, that isn't really the right word but at times it feels like it, from anyone that finds out(friends, family, coworkers, etc). I imagine it's a million times worse for a woman that doesn't want kids.

FWIW having been on both sides of this particular fence the judgmental crap doesn't stop when you have kids. It just becomes about how you're parenting wrong.

Some people are just assholes who want to tell you how to live your life.

Also, threads on this particular topic have been locked more than once so I'd just as rather swerve it here.

Yep. I don’t understand how complete strangers think it’s perfectly acceptable to tell you how you should be raising your kid. I used to get it a lot from older women when my son was young, with a certain “well as a dad you probably don’t know this but...” in the way I was handling melt downs. I believe in a kind but firm style which from what I can tell is not well received in the Seattle area. Also, I hate being seen as incompetent because I’m a dad. Not saying that dads have it worse than moms but dad as incompetent idiot is pretty deeply ingrained in modern American culture. See Homer Simpson, Al Bundy, Walter White, Phil Dunfy, etc.

EDIT - not trying to start parent war 2.0 but I think it’s helpful to share our frustrations as dads (or men who don’t choose to be dads).

Steering this into a slightly tangential direction, anyone else get the "Wow, you're such a good dad!" comments for just doing, you know, basic parent sh*t? Like, changing diapers and taking them to the park? I find it interesting that I get that, even in a 'progressive' city like NYC.

I took the kids (4 years and 7 months) to the in-laws by myself recently (wife had to work and followed us the next day), and the comments the older ladies were making: "Good job dad!" "You're so brave!" etc. I had to take the older one to the bathroom so was strapping the younger one to the carrier and a little old lady was all "Would you like me to hold your baby?" First off: f*ck no, you're a f*cking stranger! Second: I'm not incompetent, I can manage my kids.

More recently, I took the kiddos to an indoor playspace, and was managing strapping in the little one while trying to help the older one put their shoes on. I was very obviously the only dad there by themselves with their kids, and one of the moms asked "Would you like some help?" with a slight tone of what I perceived to be condescension. Again, thank you, but I can manage my kids. I wonder if she would have offered that to another mom?

I get that for many people, the gender roles of women being primary care givers is almost hard-wired into a lot of people, but please don't patronize me like that. It also infuriates my wife to no end, because what is she? Chopped liver? There's this underlying implication that women don't need praise for being good parents because it's just expected.

I used to hear that a lot when we lived in the NYC area. I found it rather annoying. For whatever reason I haven’t heard things like that since we moved to Massachusetts.

I have also heard a few men brag about doing basic stuff that all fathers should be doing. I can't recall if I have heard women do the same. I must have, I guess that tells something about me that it didn't bother me.

Yeah, I posted about this over that last year too. It's quite obnoxious to be complemented for basic items. Thanks but really you should expect more from men. I amazed my wife's friends by taking my child to a party, shopping, or even out of her hair for a while. I love taking my kids out and giving her a break. Why this is out of the norm I will never understand. When she takes the kids out she just is judged for every small thing wrong. I could put two different shoes on and get compliments.

You know, I'm fine with people complementing me for basic parenting sh*t. Sure beats the stuff my wife constantly worries about.

The pressures that she has on her for whenever something is wrong with the kids isn't fair. If the kids are sick, or misbehave, or have anything wrong with them at all, she thinks everyone will point the finger of blame at her. And as much as I'd like to say that it isn't true, I'm sure she's right when it comes to an uncomfortably large number of people.

Hobear has the right of it. This is a non-issue for men, but a real problem for women.

This Comic Perfectly Explains Rape Culture and the True Story It's Based on is Sickening popped up in my feed today. It's good to see the issue becoming more prevalent.

"When it comes to 'good sex', women often mean without pain, men often mean they had orgasms."

One of those things that was obvious when I read it but that I'd never previously filed away as a fact.

Maq wrote:

"When it comes to 'good sex', women often mean without pain, men often mean they had orgasms."

One of those things that was obvious when I read it but that I'd never previously filed away as a fact.

Very interesting article, thanks for linking it.

I’d be interested if the research study looked at age as a variable (I could only see the abstract). In my practice, dyspareunia is a super common and challenging symptom in my post-menopausal patients, especially the ones being treated for breast cancer. It sucks and is hard to treat. I wonder if the incidence is as high in younger women?

Also, the author makes it sound like painful sex is just societies burden placed on women. I’d be curious as to why it’s happening? Inadequate foreplay? Lack of communication? And what is the role for women to advocate for their pleasure/lack of pain? The author didn’t expand on how women achieve pleasurable sex and kind of implies that they aren’t getting it. I’m assuming that isn’t the intent but reinforces the stereotype that sex is something only men are interested in and that women just put up with (although maybe there’s some truth to that).

The implication seems to be that men don’t give a rats ass if their partners are in pain as long as the guy gets his rocks off. While I’m sure there are men like that, Im guessing most of us would feel bad knowing that our partners are experiencing physical torture during sex and would want to try to fix that if possible.

Docjoe wrote:

The implication seems to be that men don’t give a rats ass if their partners are in pain as long as the guy gets his rocks off. While I’m sure there are men like that, Im guessing most of us would feel bad knowing that our partners are experiencing physical torture during sex and would want to try to fix that if possible.

I think the implication is more that plenty men go through life completely unaware that this is even an issue. To the point where they wouldn't even think to ask.

DanB wrote:
Docjoe wrote:

The implication seems to be that men don’t give a rats ass if their partners are in pain as long as the guy gets his rocks off. While I’m sure there are men like that, Im guessing most of us would feel bad knowing that our partners are experiencing physical torture during sex and would want to try to fix that if possible.

I think the implication is more that plenty men go through life completely unaware that this is even an issue. To the point where they wouldn't even think to ask.

Yeah, and that society puts pressure on women to act in ways that keep men unaware. That even keep the women themselves inattentive to this. From the article:

"One side effect of teaching one gender to outsource its pleasure to a third party (and endure a lot of discomfort in the process) is that they're going to be poor analysts of their own discomfort, which they have been persistently taught to ignore."

cheeze_pavilion wrote:
DanB wrote:
Docjoe wrote:

The implication seems to be that men don’t give a rats ass if their partners are in pain as long as the guy gets his rocks off. While I’m sure there are men like that, Im guessing most of us would feel bad knowing that our partners are experiencing physical torture during sex and would want to try to fix that if possible.

I think the implication is more that plenty men go through life completely unaware that this is even an issue. To the point where they wouldn't even think to ask.

Yeah, and that society puts pressure on women to act in ways that keep men unaware. That even keep the women themselves inattentive to this. From the article:

"One side effect of teaching one gender to outsource its pleasure to a third party (and endure a lot of discomfort in the process) is that they're going to be poor analysts of their own discomfort, which they have been persistently taught to ignore."

I guess I would still expect an “Ow that hurts” if something is painful but maybe that would only be once in a relationship you are comfortable with?

As men, how do we make this better? I guess as individuals ask our partners to inform us if we are inflicting pain? Or stick to positions where the woman has control?

Or maybe I’m missing the point all together and this is a comment on society, not something that translates to our own relationships.

Goes back to enthusiastic consent. If the woman is saying yes it probably feels good.

I don't think that follows. That's entirely the kind of assumption that leads people to never even ask if the other person is uncomfortable or in pain.

Never mind that "probably" ain't anywhere near good enough, pal. Not even f***ing close.

I think for most couples if they have a healthy relationship this can still be an area that is barely if ever discussed. First steps are to start having open and honest discussions of your sexual relationship. That in it self is a mountain to overcome for a majority in America at least.

Hobear wrote:

I think for most couples if they have a healthy relationship this can still be an area that is barely if ever discussed. First steps are to start having open and honest discussions of your sexual relationship. That in it self is a mountain to overcome for a majority in America at least.

We only have this one trip around. It's difficult for me to imagine being unable to freely discuss sex (good, bad, whatever) with the person I'm closest to in this world. At the same time I know there are many who don't, or for whom it's consistently a bad thing. To me it's a path toward further intimacy, vulnerability, and trust. I wish it could be that for everyone.

Stele wrote:

Goes back to enthusiastic consent. If the woman is saying yes it probably feels good.

Unless she’s enthusiastically faking an orgasm....just to get it over with faster.