[Discussion] Feminism and social justice, plus FAQ!

This thread is for discussing feminist issues--from the narrow meaning (a movement for social justice in terms of gender equality) to the broader meaning (a movement for social justice, period), and from the scope of issues in gaming and geek culture to kyriarchy in general.

Basic questions are allowed here for now, we will split out a Q&A thread should it become necessary.

Bryan Singer Is No Longer an Executive Producer on Legion, and The Gifted May Be Next

Bryan Singer has been removed as executive producer from the FX series Legion, at his request, following allegations of rape and sexual assault.

A Feminist Twitter Campaign Targets Harper’s Magazine and Katie Roiphe

t started with a tweet on Tuesday afternoon. By the next morning, five writers were said to have pulled stories planned for future issues of Harper’s Magazine — an effort to pressure the magazine not to reveal one of the creators of a list of men in the media industry accused of sexually inappropriate behavior.

At issue was an article Harper’s had scheduled for the March edition written by the essayist Katie Roiphe. Writers and editors posted on Twitter that Ms. Roiphe’s article would reveal the identity of a person who had created the anonymous Google spreadsheet, first circulated in October, that identified men who were said to have acted in a predatory manner toward women.

The spreadsheet, called sh*tty Media Men, lists men in the industry along with allegations against them ranging from questionable behavior to rape.

The list comes with a disclaimer advising readers to take its contents with a grain of salt, since some of the material was described as “rumors.” The document includes the names of some men who have been fired from media jobs since it was first shared.

Continue reading the main story
In an email interview on Tuesday, Ms. Roiphe said her article did not name a creator of the list.

“I am looking forward to talking about what is actually in the piece when it actually comes out,” she said. “I am not ‘outing’ anyone. I have to say it’s a little disturbing that anyone besides Trump views Twitter as a reliable news source.”

In a later interview, Ms. Roiphe said that she herself did not know the identity of the person who started the list and added, “I would never put in the creator of the list if they didn’t want to be named.”

Giulia Melucci, a spokeswoman for Harper’s, said, “We’re not going to tell the steps of the editing process.” Through a spokeswoman, James Marcus, the editor of Harper’s, declined to comment.

Well, look at that.

I Started the Media Men List My name is Moira Donegan.

In October, I created a Google spreadsheet called “sh*tty Media Men” that collected a range of rumors and allegations of sexual misconduct, much of it violent, by men in magazines and publishing. The anonymous, crowdsourced document was a first attempt at solving what has seemed like an intractable problem: how women can protect ourselves from sexual harassment and assault.

One long-standing partial remedy that women have developed is the whisper network, informal alliances that pass on open secrets and warn women away from serial assaulters. Many of these networks have been invaluable in protecting their members. Still, whisper networks are social alliances, and as such, they’re unreliable. They can be elitist, or just insular. As Jenna Wortham pointed out in The New York Times Magazine, they are also prone to exclude women of color. Fundamentally, a whisper network consists of private conversations, and the document that I created was meant to be private as well. It was active for only a few hours, during which it spread much further and much faster than I ever anticipated, and in the end, the once-private document was made public — first when its existence was revealed in a BuzzFeed article by Doree Shafrir, then when the document itself was posted on Reddit.

A slew of think pieces ensued, with commentators alternately condemning the document as reckless, malicious, or puritanically anti-sex. Many called the document irresponsible, emphasizing that since it was anonymous, false accusations could be added without consequence. Others said that it ignored established channels in favor of what they thought was vigilantism and that they felt uncomfortable that it contained allegations both of violent assaults and inappropriate messages. Still other people just saw it as catty and mean, something like the “Burn Book” from Mean Girls. Because the document circulated among writers and journalists, many of the people assigned to write about it had received it from friends. Some faced the difficult experience of seeing other, male friends named. Many commentators expressed sympathy with the aims of the document — women warning women, trying to help one another — but thought that its technique was too radical. They objected to the anonymity, or to the digital format, or to writing these allegations down at all. Eventually, some media companies conducted investigations into employees who appeared on the spreadsheet; some of those men left their jobs or were fired.

None of this was what I thought was going to happen. In the beginning, I only wanted to create a place for women to share their stories of harassment and assault without being needlessly discredited or judged. The hope was to create an alternate avenue to report this kind of behavior and warn others without fear of retaliation. Too often, for someone looking to report an incident or to make habitual behavior stop, all the available options are bad ones. The police are notoriously inept at handling sexual-assault cases. Human-resources departments, in offices that have them, are tasked not with protecting employees but with shielding the company from liability — meaning that in the frequent occasion that the offender is a member of management and the victim is not, HR’s priorities lie with the accused. When a reporting channel has enforcement power, like an HR department or the police, it also has an obligation to presume innocence. In contrast, the value of the spreadsheet was that it had no enforcement mechanisms: Without legal authority or professional power, it offered an impartial, rather than adversarial, tool to those who used it. It was intended specifically not to inflict consequences, not to be a weapon — and yet, once it became public, many people immediately saw it as exactly that.

I had some quibbles with the list, I have some quibbles with the apparent author here (some of her explanations strike me as naive, at best), but as #MeToo and the backlash to #MeToo continues, this is another one of those important moments.

I have zero quibbles with such a list. Women are regularly and unfairly accused of worse things, and that seems to be okay. No one is going to be fired over this without an investigation, because it is an anonymous list. At worst, they could be fired after an investigation, at which point I have to wonder why they weren't under investigation to begin with.

I'm putting this here because the rape culture thread is pretty dead.

Men Try to 'Redefine' Sexual Consent With Blockchain

h/t Kittylexy

sometimesdee wrote:

I'm putting this here because the rape culture thread is pretty dead.

Men Try to 'Redefine' Sexual Consent With Blockchain

h/t Kittylexy

Dumbass dudes having such a big hang-up on consent is soooooooooooo alien to my brain at this point. I just cannot grok it other than to think their goal is personal sexual enjoyment with no consideration beyond that.

The app developers viewing the process of getting consent as equivalent to "signing a contract for personal legal safety" though pretty clearly puts them in the misogynist category with such delightful figures as Milo and Juicebro and others.

Having been introduced, I think here maybe, to the idea and principle of Enthusiastic Consent, I've modified a lot of behavior to be a better person. I'm definitely a very physically affectionate person by nature. My Kindergarten teacher's award to me was the Hug Bug Award because I gave her a hug when I arrived and when I was leaving. When someone is having a bad day and confides that to me, that's usually my default reaction, give them a hug. Now, I ask. If they're lukewarm to the idea, I tell them it's totally ok if they don't want one. I don't want to impose a hug on someone. The goal is to make them feel better and if that's just going to cause negative feelings, etc... I don't want to put that on them. It's not about me, it's about THEM and respecting them and their boundaries as a fellow human being you care about on some level.

Maybe that's the problem? They just don't respect fellow human beings unlike themselves?

Demosthenes wrote:

their goal is personal sexual enjoyment with no consideration beyond that.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Demosthenes wrote:

They just don't respect fellow human beings unlike themselves women?

FTFY

Someone posted something on Facebook that has stuck with me the last few days too.

What happened to "feminazi"? I feel like all throughout GamerGate we heard that word SO MUCH... and suddenly it's fallen out of favor. Is it because all the idiots who used it are now like "hey, maybe the nazis weren't so bad?" and in the Alt-Right and calling them feminazis would be verboten because you'd be calling them something like yourself and that's not OK, you're not the baddies...

sometimesdee wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:

their goal is personal sexual enjoyment with no consideration beyond that.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Demosthenes wrote:

They just don't respect fellow human beings unlike themselves women?

FTFY

I assume you're right on the FTFY, and that was the primary thing I was thinking... but given the country over the last two years... I went a bit wider because I'm pretty sure they're not respecting anyone with any other differences (skin color, ethnicity, religious beliefs, they're being the same but with different hobbies/interests, being like you but better looking so a Chad, et al) either.

sometimesdee wrote:

I'm putting this here because the rape culture thread is pretty dead.

Men Try to 'Redefine' Sexual Consent With Blockchain

h/t Kittylexy

"My tastes are... unconventional."

"Show me."

*swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe* *swipe*

So they are trying to set up a sex contract thing because in their minds false sexual assault accusations are a) more prevalent than sexual assault, and b) more damaging to the victim?

As I said elsewhere recently: one ticket off the planet, please.

BadKen wrote:

So they are trying to set up a sex contract thing because in their minds false sexual assault accusations are a) more prevalent than sexual assault, and b) more damaging to the victim?

Yeah, there's no question that that is exactly the world view this is coming from.

This app reminds me of something that sends the Silicon Valley showrunners back to the drawing board between seasons, as they find their satire has once again been out-ludicroused by actual app development reality.

I still remain amazed by that Kumail Nanjiani tweet where he said they'd go to Silicon Valley tech conferences and stuff, and be amazed at how many people weren't asking "should we?" or even considering the ramifications of what they were doing beyond "WE'RE GONNA BE RICH AS SH*T."

Demosthenes wrote:

their goal is personal sexual enjoyment with no consideration beyond that.

I think it's about control as much as it's about sexual enjoyment.

Meanwhile, remember that feeling many of us have had that Chris Matthews is probably a creep?

Guess what?

On January 5, 2016, MSNBC Hardball host Chris Matthews interviewed Hillary Clinton in an Iowa fire station during the Democratic primary season. Network footage obtained by the Cut shows Matthews, during the interview setup, making a couple of “jokes” about Clinton. He asks, “Can I have some of the queen’s waters? Precious waters?” And then, as he waits for the water, he adds, “Where’s that Bill Cosby pill I brought with me?” Matthews then laughs, delighted with the line, for an extended moment, as the staffers around him react with disbelief, clearly uncomfortable. (Cosby has been accused of sexual impropriety by dozens of women, some of whom allege that they were drugged and raped by the comedian.)

“This was a terrible comment I made in poor taste during the height of the Bill Cosby headlines,” Matthews said to the Cut. “I realize that’s no excuse. I deeply regret it and I’m sorry.”

Matthews has a long history of talking disparagingly about Hillary Clinton, whom he once called “witchy,”and often seems to channel what a hypothetical sexist Republican might say about a woman candidate: “she-devil,” “Madame Defarge.” In 2005, he wondered whether the troops would “take the orders” from a (female) President Clinton. “Is she hemmed in by the fact that she’s a woman and can’t admit a mistake,” he asked in 2006, “or else the Republicans will say, ‘Oh, that’s a woman’s prerogative to change her mind,’ or ‘another fickle woman’? Is her gender a problem in her ability to change her mind?” He once pinched her cheek following an interview, and, though he later apologized, on another occasion suggested that she only got as far as she did on the political stage because her husband had “messed around.”

In the 2016 interview that followed the Cosby reference, Matthews — whose wife, Kathleen, ran for Congress that same year, and faced what her campaign suggested were unfair questions about whether her husband’s career had helped her own — interrogates Clinton about the GOP’s fixation on her stamina, and brings up her husband’s infidelity. “Half my viewers are women. And they want to hear what it takes for a woman to just rise out of a situation which is pretty bad and come out of it and say, You know what? I can rise to this occasion. How did you do it?” he asks, before interrupting several times as she tries to answer.

There's... uh... quite a bit of this stuff out there about Matthews.

sometimesdee wrote:

I'm putting this here because the rape culture thread is pretty dead.

Men Try to 'Redefine' Sexual Consent With Blockchain

h/t Kittylexy

Anyone who busted that out would get an instant "hell no" from me no matter how interested I had been in them up to that point. You have so little respect for me that you need me to write down what I will and won't do? Go f*ck yourself, because you're not f*cking me.

I think it reflects the asymmetry we're brought up with and told to deal with. If you want to sum it up in a nutshell, I think this tweet does a very good job of it:

Andy Khouri wrote:

Conversation with female friends about dating. I said I liked dating, even bad dates, because dating can be a kind of adventure. Worst case, you learn something about yourself.
Female friend said something like, "No, worst case is I'm raped and killed."
That's when I got it.

Th NY Times really dropped the ball on this one... The whole article reeks of victim blaming. "If you are hanging out with a naked man, it's safe to assume he will try to have sex with you." Sorry, NYT, but even if I'm naked as the day I was born, and my partner as well, and if I start to feel uncomfortable and back out, or ask to slow down, he will comply and not press on.

Aziz Ansari's statement reads: "The next day, I got a text from her saying that although ‘it may have seemed okay,’ upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable."
"Upon further reflection" is textbook gaslighting. IT's the classic tactic of "oh yeah, she's had morning after regret". As fas as we can tell, that's not at all what's going on.
I think the reason why this is hitting so hard for me is that the Babe article is reminiscent of a lot of old things for me, and a lot of women from what I could see in the Mary Sue article's comments. I literally feel nauseated.

"I don't understand consent, maybe blockchain will help" Is the most ridiculously techbro thing I've ever heard.

Wanna read a story about the "Aziz Ansari story", then read this, guys. And I do mean guys as in cis het men, because there isn't anything there that most anyone else doesn't already know. Where's that glorious post Phoenix Rev made about enthusiastic consent...
How To Avoid Regrettable Sex by James S. Fell (Body for Wife)

Eleima wrote:

Wanna read a story about the "Aziz Ansari story", then read this, guys. And I do mean guys as in cis het men, because there isn't anything there that most anyone else doesn't already know. Where's that glorious post Phoenix Rev made about enthusiastic consent...
How To Avoid Regrettable Sex by James S. Fell (Body for Wife)

Yeah, that NYT time piece about "well, he's not a mind reader." is so f*cking infuriating. That dude calls himself a feminist and I just want to be like "Ummmm. Nope. You think you are, but I think you missed a few bits."

As to the piece you just linked Eleima... I struggle with mostly because I wonder if that's what happened with my last encounter (not a new thought, but one I've been grappling with for a while)... but at the same time, I didn't initiate any of it. Like we were just hanging out, I was expecting at most to make out at some point and then it went waaaaaay past that. And yet, I wasn't the one who initiated the removal of any clothing. Like I removed a few pieces, but because I was told to because she wanted them removed. But I'd say how quickly things degenerated in a relationship that was developing very well before that, something went very wrong (and frankly, I still have no clue what that was, really).

I dunno, it's scary to think that I could absolutely have been that guy in my past and is sooooooo horrifying to me because that's not what I'd want for any partner I've ever had, short or long term.

That some dudes' (who identify as feminists no less) reponses are along the lines of "Well, you were naked, in my house, what did you expect? For me not to f*ck you?" is like... *vom*

Actually, it would seem Bari Weiss is a woman. I don’t know that she claims to be a feminist.
Internalized misogyny, the patriarchy is pretty entrenched.

As for the rest.... I don’t know what to say Demos. I think the most important is that we try to keep getting better.

Eleima wrote:

Actually, it would seem Bari Weiss is a woman. I don’t know that she claims to be a feminist.
Internalized misogyny, the patriarchy is pretty entrenched.

As for the rest.... I don’t know what to say Demos. I think the most important is that we try to keep getting better.

Yeah, that was prior to my introduction to and then rapid endorsement of enthusiastic consent. It was actually working through various materials on EC that I started to wonder if I didn't actually screw something up big time in that last starting of a relationship.

But then I see sh*t like, "what do we need? A contract signed and notarized for consent" and I kind of just want to burn the whole world down.

Which kinda explains why a lot of women are wary.
Like I said, the best you can do is move forward and do the best you can.
You can always reach out and apologize, but absolution may not be forthcoming.

Pajiba: Matt Damon's Off Our 'Shut The F*ck Up Already' List, And Alec Baldwin Has Already Taken His Spot

It looks like Matt Damon is starting 2018 off on the right foot! After a year spent saying the wrong damn thing consistently, he’s rebounding by saying the 100% correct thing for a change. And what is that correct thing? Basically: “I’m gonna STFU now.”
Kathie Lee asked him what he’d learned from being caught up in the controversies surrounding the general #MeToo movement. Well, she didn’t ask quite that (she’s awkward, yo), but that’s basically the question that Matt chose to answer. And he’s clearly been listening to the criticism he’s received for every OTHER time he’s tried to address the culture of sexual assault and harassment in Hollywood (like the time he perfected the “father of daughters” response or the time he helpfully pointed out the spectrum of sexually predatory behavior between the criminal and the merely shamefully gross). I can tell, because this time? This time he f*cking NAILED IT.

https://twitter.com/klgandhoda/statu...

“I think ultimately what it is for me is I don’t want to further anybody’s pain with anything I do or say, so for that, I’m really sorry. Time’s Up, a lot of those women are my dear friends, and I love them and respect them and support what they’re doing and want to be a part of that change and want to go along for the ride, but I should get in the back seat and close my mouth for a while.”

The way I do it is I think of sex as a conversation, and the way I do conversations is I say something, THEN I shut up. Because I'm listening. Can't listen if you're speaking. That's monologuing. Only villains do that.

So she tells me to take her clothes off. Great! I do. Next topic. I say something - I slide my hand down her back and across her butt. How was that? No reaction? Bad. Probably said something wrong. Dial it back. She into it? Good. Next statement is hers. She sits astride me and starts kissing my chin. Okay. Unusual, but I dig it. Slide again? Nah. She thought that was weird. Let's try massaging her hair. She responds by kissing more urgently. Nice. Keep that in the back pocket. And so on...

This is basically a variation of the 90/10 rule. Except it's 50/50. Dial it back even further if you're a little concerned with consent. Like only initiate or maintain 40 of any sexual contact. Lie back, be encouraging, and let her do what she wants. If that thing is she gets up and tries to read a book, well, I dig that, too!

Eleima wrote:

Wanna read a story about the "Aziz Ansari story", then read this, guys. And I do mean guys as in cis het men, because there isn't anything there that most anyone else doesn't already know. Where's that glorious post Phoenix Rev made about enthusiastic consent...
How To Avoid Regrettable Sex by James S. Fell (Body for Wife)

It boggles my mind that such a guideline is required. It clearly is, though.

I, before meeting my wife, was the guy who never made a move. Ever. I honesty felt too awkward and unsure to attempt anything. I was comfortable in the friend zone. I made good female friends, just as I would male friends. Some of those women made a move on me. Some did not. Some I welcomed. Some I did not. A few, just as I would, tiptoed around the subject of something more, but never pursued it, just as I did not.

I made one spur of the moment move - a hug and a kiss on the cheek - in my entire life. It was after a date with a girl I'd been friendly with for a while. There was nothing there, no internal spark, no winning response from her, and that was that. We had a few further conversations on the subject as we got on well, could a spark develop, but nothing ever became of it.

My first kiss on the lips came when a really good friend literally laid one on me. I still remember her giggling at my response. We'd been spending so much time together. She'd come over to my place early to mid morning every day for the entirety of that summer. She would nudge me over and snuggle into my bed as I grumbled she'd take too much blanket! We'd watch television before grabbing something to eat and thinking on what to do with the day. Other than a little touchy feely, and kissing, that was it. We never had sex. I think I wanted to. I think she wanted to. Neither of us took the leap. Better than getting it wrong.

My wife still laughs when we recall how I asked her if I could hold her hand in public for the first time. (To which there was a spark.) I remember when we were at the zoo and everyone else departed the penguin enclosure leaving us alone. I made a comment about a good kissing opportunity which she was excitedly all for. If not I could have laughed it off! Everything in the beginning was from a verbal cue, which required a response. Everything. Nowadays I'd say I don't do anything affectionate anywhere near enough, and my wife initiates almost exclusively. In other words I am still just going with the flow and things keep happening.

What is the point of my relaying this? To show that just being a standup person, friendly, is enough to get girls to come to you for more. Playful verbal suggestions, when the time is right, can create openings or set notions straight, if necessary.

I have no foundation for one night stands. I was never interested. I cannot fathom how. It seems to be a different ball game entirely.

As for Aziz Ansari. Yes, he could have read the signs better. I think so. There were conflicting signs, though. He also went no further when a verbal response was given. No discarding of this woman upon sex being off the table. Contacting her afterwards, positively so.

She was not intoxicated. She was not restrained. The sexual activity stopped when she decided. She left the apartment when she wanted to.

He should have handled it better. If it's not a "yes" then it's a "no" is a good mantra. Be sure. She should have handled it better. Lay ground rules upon accepting the invitation. If uncomfortable do speak up.

It's a shame that they're now going to be judged as having ulterior motives. Him as a wannabe rapist. Her as a wannabe #metoo. Assuming extremes because the internet.

RnRClown wrote:

The sexual activity stopped when she decided. She left the apartment when she wanted to.

That's where you're wrong and where you're utterly missing the point. She said she wanted to slow down several times, and he would have a little pause before picking up again. Clearly, she was uncomfortable and looking for an out, but didn't know how. If you haven't read the Babe article, I'll quote an appropriate chunk, although it churns my stomach.

Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated.

When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did, but not for long. “It was really quick. Everything was pretty much touched and done within ten minutes of hooking up, except for actual sex.”
She says Ansari began making a move on her that he repeated during their encounter. “The move he kept doing was taking his two fingers in a V-shape and putting them in my mouth, in my throat to wet his fingers, because the moment he’d stick his fingers in my throat he’d go straight for my vagina and try to finger me.” Grace called the move “the claw.”
Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”

Emphasis mine. Now do you get it? How the frak do you go from "let's chill" to oral sex? It's mindboggling.

I think the difficulty here is understanding why it's so hard to say no.

Delbin wrote:

I think the difficulty here is understanding why it's so hard to say hear no.

This is the part I don't get.