Star Wars:The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!!!!)

PaladinTom wrote:

This tells me there probably was no planned arc for the new trilogy.

Really?

I mean...

Really?

BadKen wrote:
PaladinTom wrote:

This tells me there probably was no planned arc for the new trilogy.

Really?

I mean...

Really?

Yes, it really did. That’s what it felt like to me. Kinda like Luke and Leia in ROTJ. Or everything after Season one of Lost.

Looking back, Epsiode VII just should have started the crawl with...

“The New Republic sought to restore Freedom to the Galaxy.

It failed.

Star Sytem after star sytem have continued to reject its rule until The New Order... etc etc.”.

Kylo is just not a convincing bad guy.

Wut?

PaladinTom wrote:
BadKen wrote:
PaladinTom wrote:

This tells me there probably was no planned arc for the new trilogy.

Really?

I mean...

Really?

Yes, it really did. That’s what it felt like to me. Kinda like Luke and Leia in ROTJ. Or everything after Season one of Lost.

Nobody lays out north of $2 billion over a period of 6-7 years without knowing exactly what they are paying for.

kazar wrote:
bnpederson wrote:

Nah, she can still be the chosen one with those visions to help her along the path. Doesn't matter who donated sperm or squeezed her out for that to be the case.

But that would again be a Red Herring. So either those visions and the light saber calling out to her is significant or the fact that her parents are nobody is significant, but not both.

It is said time and time again that when darkness rises light will rise to combat it. Rey is the light. The force is pulling on her and in TFA it uses Luke's saber to show her some things. Lesson 1 from Luke in TLJ, the force surrounds us, binds us, everybody, everything. The Skywalker's don't own it. It makes the story MORE powerful if Rey comes from a "normal" family. Having her be a Skywalker or Kenobi would just be a gimmick that people usually complain about, IMO.

As far as why the FO could not think of some way to maybe jump ahead after thinking about it my opinion is even if they COULD have, Snoke and Hux decided to just chase them down. They knew they would run out of fuel. I feel the FO would be happy to just let the core of the resistance wring their hands until they got blown up. It would have given them great pleasure.

Huh, I guess I didn’t notice the feminist overtones. Does it make me a clueless cis male if I just didn’t notice the gender of the people in their respective roles? They were just people to me but now that it is pointed out to me, I can definitely see the message in the film.

The one character I did notice was Rose, it is unheard of for an Asian woman with a normal figure to have a “romance”. It is interesting that the only 2 ethnic minorities were sent off on a wild goose chase and were not present to take part in the meaningful storyline though.

I guess I watch movies far too superficially to be honest, I probably miss a lot of the intended messages.

karmajay wrote:
Kylo is just not a convincing bad guy.

Wut?

He just spends too much time having teenager like angst. It seems like he is just one prolonged temper tantrum.

It’s probably tough when you are always compared to Vader, the gold standard. Vader in the closing scenes of Rogue One, now that is one terrifying Sith Lord.

In terms of pure plotting of the movie, Holdo's behavior is perfectly functional, as she's a very consistent character, her actions kick off nearly everything there, and the payoff ends up with most visually astonishing shot in the movie.

It gives Poe character growth, where he learns what command really means. The tension between his impulses to do something now and her unknown maybe not plan drives a lot of the drama.

It gets Finn his entire character growth(literally kicking his Stormtrooper programming into a pit of fire). It also got us Rose, who's the gruntiest grunt we've ever had as a main character in a Star Wars film.

It set up the last shot of the movie, which wrapped the entire theme that they were building incredibly nicely.

And most importantly, it gave us the best freaking shot ever in a Star Wars film with the cruiser jumping directly through the dreadnaught(seriously, that shot was just freaking incredible). I'm not over that shot yet. It was just spectacular.

But... the initial conceit just doesn't work in the plot's context. There's almost no logical reason to hide that there is a longer term plan around, and that if he just sits tight, Holdo will tell Poe his role. It runs entirely counter to the high command message of Hope. That's the real problem, and why she doesn't really work all that well.

But that shot.

karmajay wrote:

It is said time and time again that when darkness rises light will rise to combat it. Rey is the light. The force is pulling on her and in TFA it uses Luke's saber to show her some things. Lesson 1 from Luke in TLJ, the force surrounds us, binds us, everybody, everything. The Skywalker's don't own it. It makes the story MORE powerful if Rey comes from a "normal" family. Having her be a Skywalker or Kenobi would just be a gimmick that people usually complain about, IMO.

But it could have been any lightsaber. In fact the force could have spoken to her through any medium. The writers chose to bring back Luke's lightsaber (which was effectively destroyed in ESB) as a plot device. That is why I have a feeling that what Ben said is another plot device. It is a trick to make us think one thing when something else is what is true. I don't see how the story is more powerful (or less for that matter) one way or another. I just didn't like that they are playing these games, like they are trying to one up the Vader reveal in ESB. Regardless, I am pretty confident that something "shocking" is going to come in the last movie.

BadKen wrote:
PaladinTom wrote:
BadKen wrote:
PaladinTom wrote:

This tells me there probably was no planned arc for the new trilogy.

Really?

I mean...

Really?

Yes, it really did. That’s what it felt like to me. Kinda like Luke and Leia in ROTJ. Or everything after Season one of Lost.

Nobody lays out north of $2 billion over a period of 6-7 years without knowing exactly what they are paying for.

Well it’s either that or bad storytelling at the expense of the audience. That's my take.

And long form story ideas can and do change, and not always for the better.

Wow, that was the Twin Peaks: The Return of Star Wars movies. After the last two kinda warmed-over nostalgia trips (which I loved anyway) this thing was what I needed. I don't think I want every Star Wars movie to be this goofy and weird, but I'm glad this one was.

I'm also pretty convinced that they found the only revelation for Rey that wouldn't have felt either awkward or rote. If she's a Skywalker, that's a groan. If she's a Kenobi/Palpatine/some EU character's cousin, that wouldn't land emotionally and strain believably. But having her be no one? Pleasant surprise, and one with a nice theme to it.

Also, I can't help but think of Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder as a visual metaphor for Rian's reaction to inheriting Abrams' puzzle box (I just read an interview where Rian said he wrote this after the TFA script was already done).

I was happy at first of how they said Rey’s parents were nobodies. It felt refreshing. But then by the time the movie was done I remembered that the movie put a lot of emphasis on the importance of the bloodline of the Skywalkers. Anakin was strong in the force, Luke is, so is Leia apparently and Ben. Since mythochloridians (sigh....) run in the blood, I suppose that’s what they meant by bloodline. So then how come is Rey such a powerful force user if her ancestry is so... ordinary?

I think "The Force Awakens" name was picked for a good reason, and Rey and the kid grabbing the broomstick with the force at the end of this movie are part of it. The Force seems to be increasing in the galaxy for some reason.

Fronsac wrote:

I was happy at first of how they said Rey’s parents were nobodies. It felt refreshing. But then by the time the movie was done I remembered that the movie put a lot of emphasis on the importance of the bloodline of the Skywalkers. Anakin was strong in the force, Luke is, so is Leia apparently and Ben. Since mythochloridians (sigh....) run in the blood, I suppose that’s what they meant by bloodline. So then how come is Rey such a powerful force user if her ancestry is so... ordinary?

Yeah, the Skywalker blood IS powerful BUT there were plenty of other strong Jedi during the clone wars. TBH, even though the PT added that stupid point it seems to be left in the background and not mentioned much (thankfully).

Saw it yesterday and really enjoyed it. There were a few parts that fell flat for me, but most are fairly negligible I guess.

I liked that Rey's parents are nobodies. The build up surrounding the identity of Rey's parents wasn't who they are, but rather how their abandonment and absence affected Rey. Of course, maybe Kylo is lying about Rey's parents. I mean, how does he even know? And he was trying to manipulate her into being his accomplice at the time.

I'm kind of a little disappointed that we don't know anything more about Snoke especially given that he seemed stronger in the Force than anyone we've seen in the movies. My head-canon is that he's a Sith that was laying low and saw an opportunity to take of advantage of the massive power vacuum left by the deaths of Vader and Sidious.

I also liked that Luke suddenly acted like his younger self on reuniting with R2-D2, before remembering that he's supposed to be a grumpy old man.

Docjoe wrote:

The one character I did notice was Rose, it is unheard of for an Asian woman with a normal figure to have a “romance”. It is interesting that the only 2 ethnic minorities were sent off on a wild goose chase and were not present to take part in the meaningful storyline though.

For what it's worth, Oscar Isaac aka Poe Dameron is Hispanic.

Sorry, double post. Edit button is not quote button...

halfwaywrong wrote:

I'm kind of a little disappointed that we don't know anything more about Snoke especially given that he seemed stronger in the Force than anyone we've seen in the movies. My head-canon is that he's a Sith that was laying low and saw an opportunity to take of advantage of the massive power vacuum left by the deaths of Vader and Sidious.

So normally I don't go into any theories about "deep lore" stuff being integral to the movies, because I think the filmmakers pretty much consider that stuff beneath them (beyond little nods here and there). But in this case...I think Snoke could be a Celestial/Force Wielder, like the ones in The Clone Wars.

He's the same height, build, color, and has the same extreme skill with the force that they do. It would also explain where he's been, since they spend most of their time outside of regular spacetime.

I doubt Abrams created him intentionally to be that, but the way he was realized in TLJ makes me think that someone from the story group whispered the idea into Rian Johnson's ear, and Johnson went along with it.

The visual dictionary states he is NOT a Sith. My guess is he was out there in whatever the region was that the Empire escaped to after Jakku and turned into the FO.

Haha well that puts a quick end my head-canon!

PaladinTom wrote:

Well it’s either that or bad storytelling at the expense of the audience. That's my take.

And long form story ideas can and do change, and not always for the better.

Yes. The original writer for TFA was let go. His script had Luke and Rey meeting up way earlier. Tons of stuff has changed from original 2012 plans.

I didn’t care for Leia’s spacewalk, and some of the slapstick and one-liners were a little much for me, but otherwise I really loved the movie. The Slashfilm and Hulk Critic articles linked earlier really solidified my thoughts. I disagree that the Canto Bight portion of the movie was pointless, as it reinforced the theme that failure is the best teacher, it showed where and how hope can come from when darkness spreads, and it explored Finn and Rose’s relationship in an interesting locale. In general, a lot of complaints I’m seeing seem to be that this movie did a lot of new things and don’t fit people’s preconceptions of Star Wars, or blockbuster stories in general. It’s ironic when a bunch of the complaints about The Force Awakens boiled down to it being TOO familiar, or too much of an homage. But I’m glad they’re taken by risks and trying to say something about the cost of war and how it affects people.

Hobear wrote:
Doc Joe wrote:

Kylo is just not a convincing bad guy.

Yeah. The mask made him a menace. Without he is a tantrum full of power and that is all. EP 9 needs to make me fear the FO not think they are an incapable band of morons run by a literal tantrum.

have you seen the Internet recently? He's a pretty convincing, realistic bad guy from where I sit.

pyxistyx wrote:
Hobear wrote:
Doc Joe wrote:

Kylo is just not a convincing bad guy.

Yeah. The mask made him a menace. Without he is a tantrum full of power and that is all. EP 9 needs to make me fear the FO not think they are an incapable band of morons run by a literal tantrum.

have you seen the Internet recently? He's a pretty convincing, realistic bad guy from where I sit.

I agree with Pyxi. And beyond the Internet, there’s every day life. Some of the darkest bad guys we have are the ones you seem harmless and innocuous. But then something shifts, and they assault you, or undermine you, or dismiss you.

I don’t know, I think Kylo Ren is a pretty scary vilain, with or without the mask.

The Conformist wrote:

I won't comment on the article since it would stray the conversation and seems to be written by someone who has a huge chip on their shoulder; and also seems to be a huge sweeping generalization. But in regards to Holdo not explaining to Poe because she's a woman and men rarely listen. That seems to be stretching it a bit, and looking for something that's not even there. Especially when he's spent his entire career working for and respecting Leia.

Not an article. I'm not sure what movie you saw, but Poe disobeyed a direct order from Leia to fall back in the beginning of the movie. As for him working for and respecting Leia his "entire career", I'm not sure where you get that. Unless there's some extra material I haven't gotten my hands on, we've very little to go on Poe pre-TFA.
As for generalization, you seem to believe movies exist in a vacuum. I'd suggest looking a bit at recent news, you might be surprised.

pyxistyx wrote:
Hobear wrote:
Doc Joe wrote:

Kylo is just not a convincing bad guy.

Yeah. The mask made him a menace. Without he is a tantrum full of power and that is all. EP 9 needs to make me fear the FO not think they are an incapable band of morons run by a literal tantrum.

have you seen the Internet recently? He's a pretty convincing, realistic bad guy from where I sit.

A villain that throws tantrums when he's upset like the internet is not intimidating to me. They are just annoying.

A villain that throws tantrums when he's upset and leads an entire freakin' government is pretty damn scary (see also the year 2017).

I saw this yesterday and LOVED it. I liked that our heroes aren't perfect. There's a point in the movie where everyone realizes they dun messed up. Rey walks blindly into Snoke's trap. Poe's mutiny was misguided and he didn't have all the facts. Finn trusted the wrong guy. I was engaged with these characters because they made mistakes. It wasn't everything worked for the plot because Luke was being Luke, or Han was being Han, like in the original trilogy. Don't get me wrong I love the original trilogy and always will, but this movie took what I loved from those films and added a complexity that wasn't there before.

Balthezor wrote:
pyxistyx wrote:
Hobear wrote:
Doc Joe wrote:

Kylo is just not a convincing bad guy.

Yeah. The mask made him a menace. Without he is a tantrum full of power and that is all. EP 9 needs to make me fear the FO not think they are an incapable band of morons run by a literal tantrum.

have you seen the Internet recently? He's a pretty convincing, realistic bad guy from where I sit.

A villain that throws tantrums when he's upset like the internet is not intimidating to me. They are just annoying. :D

I thought Kylo was the best part of the movie. The tantrums make sense because he still is in that period between childhood and adulthood. He is finding himself and deciding who he will be. He is pulled in different directions and overwhelmed. It kind of parallels Poe development. Young hotshot wanting to go all in but learning that’s not always the best route. Except Kylo goes the other way and doubles down on going all in.

When Kylo was on screen was when I was the most interested.

Luke’s story was blah and felt off. It dragged down Rey’s story. Finn and Rose was completely throw away. The Poe and Leia stuff was decent but way too drawn out. Just give me more Kylo

Fronsac wrote:

I was happy at first of how they said Rey’s parents were nobodies. It felt refreshing. But then by the time the movie was done I remembered that the movie put a lot of emphasis on the importance of the bloodline of the Skywalkers. Anakin was strong in the force, Luke is, so is Leia apparently and Ben. Since mythochloridians (sigh....) run in the blood, I suppose that’s what they meant by bloodline. So then how come is Rey such a powerful force user if her ancestry is so... ordinary?

I think a big part of why the Skywalkers are so important is because they dominated the first two trilogies, and were still around or influential on the third. As for why they are important to Star Wars, I'm reminded of a quote from George Lucas himself. (emphasis mine)

https://io9.gizmodo.com/something-yo...

George Lucas wrote:

“The issue was, ultimately, they looked at the stories and they said, ‘We want to make something for the fans,’” Lucas said in a new CBS interview. “So, I said, all I want to do is tell a story of what happened – it started here and went there. It’s all about generations, and issues of fathers and sons and grandfathers. It’s a family soap opera.

I agree that Rey not being tied to someone important is refreshing, plus it allows future movies to move further away from the Skywalkers and tell other stories (Rogue One already did this). That said, the only true break would be if the killed off Ben, but I'm not totally sure they're going to do that.

EDIT: They could always bring the Skywalkers back by introducing Luke's previously unmentioned son/daughter in a future movie. Go full soap opera.

Just seen the movie. I'm kind of in the middle with this movie. I didn't really get into it until Rey left Luke.

Things I really liked.
1. Snoke's death was badass.
2. Warping the ship through the other ship.
3. Fight against the redguards from Skyrim.
4. Rose
5. Luke's tricky projection.
6. Rey's parents being nothing special.

Things I really didn't like.
1. Rose saving Finn. Everyone would have died if Rey didn't show up to open the cave. She basically put her love for Finn above Finn's love for everybody.
2. I wanted to know more about Snoke.
3. The overall story was terrible. I mean for myself.
4. Using the force to survive space. Moving through space, ok. Surviving long enough to move through space, not ok.
5. To many forced jokes. Got to sell those toys and make the kids happy I guess.

I kind of liked Kylo more than I thought I would. He is still a terrible bad guy but in way that I can get behind. Yeah he is giant man child but he owns it.

When I heard the fleet could be tracked through hyperspace I thought they were going to do some BSG type of thing to get away. Nice that they did something different but BSG did it better.

The acting was pretty good all around. Everyone worked well with each other.

I only skimmed the thread. I saw a reply about a feminist agenda but have no idea what was being talked about. I didn't notice anything that could be called a feminist agenda in movie.

I don't have a desire to see this movie again but maybe I will. The first half was so boring but sometimes I like movies that I first thought was boring. Maybe after reading and watching some reviews I might be motivated to see it again.