Star Wars:The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!!!!)

So far the previous extended universe that was from the novels has been far better than these movies. That's saying something too considering how mediocre they got near the end.

Also, they're running out of main characters from the previous movies to kill off for "impact".

Also, they're running out of main characters from the previous movies to kill off for "impact".

It is not really impact. It has been >30 years since the OT IN UNIVERSE. The characters are old and aren't the focus of the new movies.

I really didn't mind Rey's parents being nobody's I thought it was a cool way to bring the force to being this mystical thing that anyone could use. Helps to stop the universe from feeling so small when everyone is not related. That said the fact they were junkies that essentially left her and that she had some kind of memory of was odd.

I feel like FA set up all these questions and made them seem so important in the first movie, I wouldn't have cared about these things if the first movie hadn't have made me. I really don't think the fans were projecting wanting to know who Snokes was or who Rey's parents were, the first movie made it seem like it was important. For this movie to just say it doesn't matter seemed dumb considering they were the ones making people care about the questions.

I'm glad JJ is back behind the next movie, I'm interested in where he was taking it. I think if this had been a new trilogy that didn't deal with old characters maybe this would have worked better for me.

karmajay wrote:
Also, they're running out of main characters from the previous movies to kill off for "impact".

It is not really impact. It has been >30 years since the OT IN UNIVERSE. The characters are old and aren't the focus of the new movies.

Not saying they should be the focus but if the only two options are to make them the focus or kill them off that's pretty lazy IMO.

So the Star Wars Galaxy is suffering from a _serious_ crisis of legitimacy. The original Republic lasted 1,000 generations, call it 30,000 years. The Empire lasted around 20, and then New Republic lasted another 30, and now the New Order is in charge of most of the Galaxy but it suffers from a huge lack of legitimacy itself. When the Rebel Alliance won whatever government they managed to install on most of the Galaxy (not all - in VII there are significant chunks they don't control) was obviously unpopular with large and powerful forces in the Galaxy as their rule crumbles to nothingness the moment the New Republic suffered a single defeat. The Star Wars Galaxy appears to be in a situation roughly similar to post-Independence 19th century South America or post-independence 20th Century Central Africa: regardless of who comes out on top large forces in the political sphere will not regard the ruling government as a legitimate source of political power and will hence take actions to undermine said rule which will make it harder for the ruling government to pursue policies that could help increase their legitimacy and that will be true for whoever replaces them. It's a coup loop.

karmajay wrote:

I also need to watch again - did that boy at the end use the force to grab the broom?

Yep. And the way he looked at the horizon was just like Luke in IV.

Hobear wrote:

Did they or was that due to the marketing? Couldn't throw a rock without hitting a Phasma cutout for TFA.

I guess it depends upon how tight you are into the geek zietgiest; I used to be but am not really much anymore and I didn't see any.

JeremyK wrote:
karmajay wrote:
Also, they're running out of main characters from the previous movies to kill off for "impact".

It is not really impact. It has been >30 years since the OT IN UNIVERSE. The characters are old and aren't the focus of the new movies.

Not saying they should be the focus but if the only two options are to make them the focus or kill them off that's pretty lazy IMO.

Problem is Harrison Ford would only come back if he could finally get killed. Luke isn't gone, I predict many a Force Ghosts in the future. And what a way to see Leia off, a hero, not a cheap death, I was surprised how well the managed her case and thank god, not a crappy CGI scene of her face beyond the force float in space. Which, whatever, it bugged me but I let it go.

Damn I loved the Yoda appearance. Not serious, jumpy, cranky Yoda, the Yoda from EP5 that was goofy and great.

Hobear wrote:

Damn I loved the Yoda appearance. Not serious, jumpy, cranky Yoda, the Yoda from EP5 that was goofy and great.

Agreed. Though I'm not sure how I feel about ghost-Yoda actually interacting with the world.

What IS death in the Star Wars universe?

It's one thing if a force ghost can advise someone but if they can burn sh*t down? That's a whole different kettle. And it's .... 34 years since Yoda died? How long does the force ghost stay around for? Forever?

Saw it last night. Enjoyed it. Still digesting.

jrralls wrote:

What IS death in the Star Wars universe?

It's one thing if a force ghost can advise someone but if they can burn sh*t down? That's a whole different kettle. And it's .... 34 years since Yoda died? How long does the force ghost stay around for? Forever?

I'm pretty sure at the end of Revenge of the Sith Yoda says its a path to immortality, so yes forever.

Damn. After my dislike of the Force Awakens I was expecting to be the most negative person here, but it seems I actually liked this movie more than most here! Curious to see what opinions will be once the ladies join in.

My overall verdict on The Last Jedi is that it managed to entertain me more than The Force Awakens, where I had to stifle my laughter as the Deather Starest ate a sun to blow up some moons. I didn't have to stifle laughter at things that were supposed to be serious or dramatic here! The majority of the characters were more interesting in this film than in the previous! I like Rose a lot! Yoda's a puppet again! Mark Hamill was phenomenal!

I'll have to see the movie again, though, to really make up my mind about it, because it most certainly wasn't flawless. In fact, I feel like this film was front-loaded with stuff to make me shake my head and sigh. So much of this movie could have been avoided if the dumb ass First Order fired on Poe's ship right at the start rather than play it for Tony Stark style of comedy. I know Karmajay mentioned the original films having comedy as well, and I'm honestly trying to gauge with myself what is and isn't equivalent types of humor. I like whenever Poe tries to shut C-3PO up because it's like a new interpretation of Han's attitude towards him. Similar, but different, and honestly Poe's more reckless and is less a scoundrel so it's not a repeat of a previous character. In fact, that Poe has not just a character but an arc is one of the things that improves this film! Actual character arcs! God, someone knows the basics of story-telling this time around!

But that's the thing. In Empire, one of my favorite bits of humor is Han and Chewie trying to fix the Millenium Falcon, and while it's silly, when they try and take off it makes sounds like a car failing to start. Yet it feels grounded in reality and it doesn't devalue the threat or respect of a character. Poe f*cking with General What's-his-Weasley suddenly makes the New Order a complete non-threat. These guys are idiots! How am I supposed to buy it? And then, by the end when I'm supposed to be sympathizing with General Weasley as Kylo Ren does his typical spoiled brat with too much power shtick, I'm instead wanting Ren to just kill him because my introduction to him (in this film at least, don't recall him from TFA) is as a sniveling conceited douchebag that's also a complete moron. I'd call that bad writing and bad comedy and bad drama. Similarly, even the Ewoks never got so cartoony as sh*t like Finn falling out of bed and "leaking". I saw that, sighed, and thought "Star Wars is an after-school cartoon now".

Of course, it wasn't that bad throughout, and by the end of the movie I wasn't thinking about much of it, but any time I want to rewatch the film I have to suffer through it. I'm conflicted about some of the other humor, such as Chewbacca trying to eat a porg in front of other porgs. Is that fitting with Star Wars? Is it not? I don't know! I don't know if my response is because it's cheaper humor than the original trilogy largely possessed or if it's simply a different but similar level of humor and things that are different get a knee jerk response! Comedy is such a weird, tricky beast sometimes.

But, one bit of humor that really worked for me is Luke Skywalker tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder. I need that as a reaction GIF so that I can post it anytime starts talking about how awesome Jedi are and lightsaber this and force powers that because I'm gonna be honest, the original trilogy was awesome without having to rely on all that. Y'know what rocked? The Battle of Hoth, which featured a lightsaber only once and did not rely upon force powers at all. Y'know what else was awesome? The battle with the Rancor, where Luke was in danger and didn't Deus Ex Machina some force powers out of his ass into Level 150 Space Wizard of Slaughtering Everything in Empowerment Fantasy. Same with the Sarlaac Pit, where yeah, Luke had a lightsaber, but the entire set piece was f*cking awesome because desert monster eating people, Leia choking the sh*t out of Jabba, and "Boba Fett? Boba Fett? Where?!"

Speaking of examples of humor from the original trilogy that, were I to see it today, I might be overly critical of (and as a teenager was, using it as an example of why Return of the Jedi was the worst of the trilogy (which, though I've warmed on it, it really does have the worst comedy bits)).

Anywho, to get back on track, I might be projecting here, but with Karmajay noting that Rian Johnson didn't care about Snoke or Rey's parents, I have a feeling I might be a bit more on point than previously. For me, Luke himself is sort of a meta-commentary on being sick with the absolute idolization of Star Wars as a media and fandom. f*ck it! Let it die! It wasn't as great as you're making it out to be! It had mistakes and flaws! But, at the same time, it does end with a passing of the torch, so maybe not as curmudgeonly as I am so much as representing a meta-narrative for the series as a whole. Personally, seeing the film ending with Orphan Boy force-grabbing the broom and holding it like a lightsaber makes me roll my eyes, but I also think all the extraneous Star Wars material belongs in the same place as your favorite anime: the trash.

I mean, I don't know if Star Wars really accelerated it or not, but it feels like with Star Wars in particular there's a confusion between "lore" and the quality of a story. Lore can be awesome! It develops the background of a setting and can act as a toolbox for story-tellers to craft a more rich narrative and world! But if having deep, massive lore made something good then the stories in Destiny and Destiny 2 wouldn't suck so hard (YES EVEN DESTINY 2). Even worse, if your story requires knowledge of the lore to improve the story itself, then you f*cked up as a story-teller. You don't need to read The Silmarillion or The Hobbit to enjoy The Lord of the Rings. Sure, it'll give you a f*ck ton of background, but Lord of the Rings uses lore to develop a situation in which a specific story can be told, a story specific to the characters undergoing it. The movies succeeded not because Middle-Earth has a deep and fascinating fake history, but because at its core a story where you don't need to know who the f*ck Morgoth is to enjoy it.

Star Wars was... kind of similar. Let's face it, the original trilogy never had deep lore. It was a basic fantasy setting of big bad empire versus the ragtag rebellion. But it gave you all the info you needed. You don't need to know how Emperor Palpatine came to power, how he discovered Darth Vader, etc. The films give you all you need to know. The problem with Force Awakens is that they tried to do some similar sh*t because J. J. Abrams is a f*cking hack. Instead of Palpatine we have Snoke, who.... I'm sorry, but if there are only ever two Sith then where did this f*cker come from? Was he in hiding? Where? "Oh, well, if you read this book-" NO! f*ck you! The movie should have that information! I shouldn't need a book to explain the timeline as to when Snoke got to Kylo Ren if he was busy training under Luke! Like, what the f*ck did Snoke offer him to draw him to the Sith? Turkish Delight?

The Last Jedi doesn't answer these question, but I feel Rian Johnson is essentially giving lore hounds the middle finger by simplifying things down. Snoke dies, no one gives a f*ck who he was, and Rey's just a desert womp rat. If they stick with her parents being nobodies I'll be so delighted.

Anywho, I suppose those are two things I liked. Walking into the movie I was predicting either Rey or Kylo Ren would lose a hand. I think they were teasing it, too, but Rian Johnson trolls people in this film, possibly based on response to The Force Awakens. Instead, Rian zooms in on the scene in which Vader confesses to being Luke's father, and switches the ideas around a bit. Heritage? It's nothing. Anyway, I killed Snoke, so join me and we can rule the galaxy together. I began to see it coming maybe 1/3rd through the film, but I still enjoy how it was done, and begins to diverge this new trilogy from the original. What's episode 9 gonna be like? I dunno! I'm actually curio- what? It's J.J. Abrams again? Nevermind.

But anyway, I suppose it suffices to say that whenever I enter a Star Wars movie I'm already feeling negative because of the outrageous rabid frothing of the mouth of the fanbase. The irony here is I do really like the original trilogy, but I've never been as huge a fan of them as I have been things like Godzilla, Alien, or Predator. Or maybe I really do hold them more closely to my heart than I'd care to admit, given how vehemently I respond to anything not the original trilogy.

In any event, as I said, this movie mostly works for me, but these are my four big gripes that could potentially hurt any future rewatching.

1. Leia Survives Space and Force Flies Back to the Ship
After seeing this movie I had a conversation with my brother, and when I explained this scene he was dumbfounded. He thought I was joking. To him, it sounds like the sort of stupid fan-fiction bullsh*t that the guys at Red Letter Media would make up as comedy imitating the bad, fan-fapping trash a studio or super-fan would put into a script. It's that idolization of The Force and obviously because Leia is related to Luke and Anakin she must have force power of her own! ...which...somehow keeps her alive in space after a blast kills everyone else on the ship.

Ugh... That was prequel levels of bad.

Speaking of prequel levels of bad.

2. The Casino Planet
Did... did they... did they seriously think going back to the prequel well was a good idea? This is "1950's Diner on Coruscant" bad. It's "Deathsticks" bad. Everything looks stupid. You know what was great about the cantina in Mos Eisley? That it didn't look like a rundown biker bar, but instead had an exotic, alien, and inventive look and still obviously being a run down bar. Here? Just take a modern casino and shove CG aliens in tuxedos. Ugh.

While I won't be so negative on the plan of Poe's, Finn's and Rose's to be a failure, that it's a failure certainly makes me wonder if this diversion was truly worth it. Hell, even if it was a success, did you really need to contrive a need for a master code-breaker and thus this diversion? Were there really no better ways to execute this type of narrative – a planet of wealthy gamblers and weapons dealers – than to do it in the least imaginative fashion possible? And if we're honest, is this not just padding to buy time for Rey to have more of her character development?

This planet is, ultimately, indefensible. You could have instead required Finn, Poe, and Rose to need to disable certain functionality or have to take parts from the vessel they were on to construct a jammer or something that would allow them to sneak into the ship and perhaps spend more time sneaking around. I dunno. Granted, this film could have used less of a run time anyway, because while I enjoyed the Salt-Hoth conclusion I also couldn't believe the film was still going on. Get rid of this planet and you trim the film down to a much better paced length.

3. The Mutiny and There's No Need to Question Authority, Just Obey and Have Faith
I feel like this is the one that's risky for me but hear me out. This isn't just about Laura Dern needing to just be honest with people and then there'd be no need for mutiny to begin with. They were trying to give Poe a character arc in which he learned the value of true leadership and heroism. I get that, and I like that. But the end lesson is "You don't need to understand, just trust in the authority figure to know what they're doing".

I grew up in a Christian household (and am technically back in there... (Jesus Christ if this basement were furnished I really would be the most stereotypical of Internet men)). In this Christian household there has been an awful lot of appeal to authority. Do as I say not as I do. Bad Sunday School lessons about trusting in God's plan because God always has a plan and everything will be okay. No questioning the Bible, no questioning the Church, all sinners we deem unworthy are going to Hell. Hey! I said no questioning!

A lack of transparency in leadership is not something you should promote as the actions of a good leader. If anything you portray it as that murky gray area that a leader sometimes is placed in because how can you tell your troops you're sending them to a no-win situation and that their lives would only buy some time? Typically, lying to troops about what they're doing is viewed as being bad. But here? Oh, here it's okay because everything turned out alright.

I feel like they tried to create a stereotypical scenario (hot-shot all-American rebel conflicting with authority figure dooming them out of their own foolish pride and decisions), and then turn it around. I also respect the efforts to portray a woman in a strong position of power acting wisely. But it's sugar coating ideas that I in life have had to struggle against and I imagine many here have also had to conflict with authority figures appealing to things like religion that demand you do what they say just because rather than providing actual reasons. And let's be honest, why shouldn't she tell Poe what the plan is? Maybe if there were the threat of a spy on board and that's how the First Order was following them...

....hey guys! I just figured something for Finn and co. to do that avoids the casino planet!

Maybe it's me projecting but I feel like this is the same kind of trick J. J. Abrams shoves in. The entire point is to make you wonder what's going to happen next and to be surprised that what you thought was happening actually isn't – pretty much the theme of this film – but thinking about it for five seconds just reveals everyone involved to be idiots.

"But it's Star Wars! You're not supposed to think-"

No. No, that's not going to fly. This isn't Barney the Dinosaur. People have been watching and analyzing the original trilogy like adults for decades now and despite the flaws characters are not so obviously stupid within the context of that movie. Sure, inconsistencies between each film begs questions of logic and reason (such as building another Death Star), but if you watch these films in isolation, within the context of themselves, no one ever acts as patently stupid as this without it being part of their character (such as Luke simply being a foolish, inexperienced, and naive young man wanting to be a hero in A New Hope).

This is not a good sub-plot. It's awful. The characters are supposed to be viewed as wise and instead they're authoritarian and stupid, and as a result Poe's character arc feels dumb and cheap, and ...y'know, what did Finn learn in this film? Other than it's good to be the king hero.

Laura Dern's rocking that purple hair, though.


I forgot my fourth big critique, so I guess time to sum up. Which, firstly, I am writing this stream of consciousness and without my more critical approach to phrasing and structure, so if I word things in a manner that is offensive or suggests I think less of the intelligence of those that might disagree, I sincerely apologize. I know I give a lot of dislike to Star Wars lore, and karmajay clearly really digs Star Wars lore, but I do not think less of karmajay for liking Star Wars lore just because I do not. I think I'm better than I used to be in terms of casually framing my opinions, but it's still something I'm working on. So please do not take offense.

Unless I really do call out a specific group of people as idiots. Then call me out on it so I can be made aware of it.

But to conclude: I thought The Last Jedi was fun! I don't want to go back and rewatch Force Awakens, and despite my dislike of the Casino scene I liked the open acknowledgement of people profiting off the war as a whole, not just off of The First Order. Hell, I wish that's been a theme growing since the first film. I absolutely loved the shot of Luke before he died, staring into the two suns setting just like before he set off on this whole adventure in A New Hope. Nice, subtle touch that basically said "Yeah, he's dying now". Rey felt more like a real character to me in this, and I like her interactions with Kylo Ren. It has me curious about their relationship going forward into the third film. Or it would if it weren't J. J. Abrams back at the helm. Finn and Rose were awesome.

Of course, I keep thinking of other small things, too. For example, things like "Godspeed" seems odd in Star Wars, like shouldn't it be "Force be With You" or "May the Force Guide You" or something? Shouldn't it be "They can't just land on the beach" instead of park? But whatever. I also wish Wonder Woman had the Amazonians shout "Loose" when releasing arrows instead of "Fire!"

At the end of the day, I expect my gripes to just be the grumblings of a fun-hating curmudgeon. I think this is a better movie than Force Awakens, which means I expect most people will probably love it. Hell, I already have one friend on Facebook that says it's the best Star Wars movie ever!

Spoiler:

I've called in a hit squad to make sure he's never heard from again.

I just feel like there's a lot this movie could have done to be better.

OH I keep forgetting to mention the one thing that stood out the most, sore thumb kind of way, was the single slow motion light saber dodge. Made me realize how much slow motion has never really been a star wars thing.

Also, film critic HULK does a nice write up already.

Lastly for the moment, can Adam Drive find a new character motivation that isn't a moody teen or toddler throwing a tantrum? He best get evil cool in the last film. Getting too Anikin prequel on us.

ccesarano wrote:

Curious to see what opinions will be once the ladies join in.

HOLY AMAZEBALLS THAT MIGHT BE THE BEST MOVIE I'VE EVER SEEN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! *explodes*

I don't think there's a damned thing in it that I hated :O

That scene with Leia and the bridge explosion..... The hyperdriving through the bad guy fleet!

AAAAAAAAH! *explodes again*

Ahem...

I might have a more nuanced opinion later.

Maybe.

pyxistyx wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

Curious to see what opinions will be once the ladies join in.

HOLY AMAZEBALLS THAT MIGHT BE THE BEST MOVIE I'VE EVER SEEN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! *explodes*

I don't think there's a damned thing in it that I hated :O

That scene with Leia and the bridge explosion..... The hyperdriving through the bad guy fleet!

AAAAAAAAH! *explodes again*

Ahem...

I might have a more nuanced opinion later.

Maybe.

I'm not a lady, but basically this. Y'all have fun nitpicking, I'll be seeing it a third time on Monday

IMAGE(https://data.whicdn.com/images/299005206/original.gif)

:kicks that dirt off his Jedi robe's shoulder:

Saw it last night and agree with people here that is is good but also felt to could have much been better. The overall story was good but the plot points all seemed rushed. Once they said go find a gambler at the casino I held small hope that it would be Lando. But the whole side mission to get the code breaker and get back in 6 hours just felt unrealistic and unnecessary.

It was also amusing in the last battle, which was "Hoth" like, the rebel touches what might have been thought as snow for a second licks and sand says, "Salt". A way to tell the audience it was different but also similar.

I definitely left feeling like this was a new Star Wars story and all the old characters were not "needed" to go forward which is good. I guess I left with really few if any questions to speculate what is coming next. Where in Force Awakens you left with wondering who was Snoke, Rey's parents, What did Kylo do to Luke?

Rave wrote:

Also the universe feels so small in this, she knows one elite hacker who happens to be on a nearby casino planet that Finn and Rose are going to be able to light speed jump to that's less the 6 hours away.

The galaxy feels like it’s about ten city blocks in TFA. The distance isn’t the problem with the hacker—the problem is that entire subplot, which feels like a rejected concept from a spin-off cartoon series, has all of the worst parts of the movie in it.

Short response to general criticisms:

Star Wars is funnier than you remember.
Star Wars is goofier than you remember.
Star Wars is more melodramatic than you remember.
Star Wars tech is less specific and more plot-driven than you remember.
Star Wars has more gaping plot holes than you remember.

A lot of y'all are criticising the movie for not being the one you'd written in your head.

I thought it was really good. Not the best Star Wars movie by a margin, but a good damn Star Wars film.

One thing they introduced in VII and VIII is the idea that each force user has a unique ability. Ben has the ability to freeze people in place and read their minds. Luke has the ability to astral project (everyone was able to see him). Leia can create some kind of shield around herself so the cold vacuum of space doesn't kill her (we don't know what training she received over during the past 30 years).

Don't count out the importance of Rey's parents. I believe the explanation they gave is a red herring, and that Ben lied in order to try to convince Rey that she has nothing holding her back and she should join him

Regarding the casino run, remember that this mission was a failure. They never got to the slicer they were looking for (I can't call him a code breaker). They instead had to deal with the guy they met in the jail who extended that failure to the main mission..

breander wrote:
jrralls wrote:

What IS death in the Star Wars universe?

It's one thing if a force ghost can advise someone but if they can burn sh*t down? That's a whole different kettle. And it's .... 34 years since Yoda died? How long does the force ghost stay around for? Forever?

I'm pretty sure at the end of Revenge of the Sith Yoda says its a path to immortality, so yes forever.

The Jedi were in power for 1,000 generations. The Galaxy should be swarming with Force Ghosts manipulating everything.

IMAGE(https://latimesherocomplex.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/3ds_luigismansiondm_char01_1_ad.jpg)

jrralls wrote:
breander wrote:
jrralls wrote:

What IS death in the Star Wars universe?

It's one thing if a force ghost can advise someone but if they can burn sh*t down? That's a whole different kettle. And it's .... 34 years since Yoda died? How long does the force ghost stay around for? Forever?

I'm pretty sure at the end of Revenge of the Sith Yoda says its a path to immortality, so yes forever.

The Jedi were in power for 1,000 generations. The Galaxy should be swarming with Force Ghosts manipulating everything.

The become one with the force thing was unknown to almost everyone. I think Yoda is the one who discovered it, and he only taught it to Ben, who taught it to Anakin.

Qui-Gon taught it to Yoda first

Tanglebones wrote:

Qui-Gon taught it to Yoda first

Oh yeah that’s right. Too bad he didn’t use it himself.

I think it was amazeballs and most of yall are just grumpy. I loved the Leia pulling herself back in. The casino scene was great because it failed. They didn't do what Maz said and it blew up in their face. (Also a lot of people are forgetting that Maz didn't have time to help. That meant that her recommendation was on their timescale. So less an ignored convenience and more an intentional this is the only guy close enough that was trustworthy... Not the only guy that can do it.)

So what did y'all think when Luke took the barage? Also I noticed his hair was trimmed and less grey. That was his image of himself.

Add in a 'Yay puppet Yoda!!!' for me. I loved the lightning and tie backs to their original conversations.

Tanglebones wrote:

Qui-Gon taught first

FTFY

Aside from I'm pretty sure you would freeze (or apparently boil) to death instantly in that situation, I had no problem with the Leia Force scene. I thought it was cool to show that she developed her Force powers over the past thirty years or was trained to a degree by Luke.