[Discussion] How men should act in the workplace

There are many cases of overt sexual harassment in the workplace finally coming to light. This is to discuss how men may be inadvertently creating a hostile environment for their female coworkers and how to make it better.

This thread is to continue a conversation that I started in the political news thread and I want to avoid derailing the conversation there but would be interested in continuing the discussion.

Articles like this one in the NY Times have really got me thinking about whether I am inadvertently creating an uncomfortable environment for my female coworkers.

I work as an oncologist and have a very close work relationship with my primary nurse (who we jokingly refer to as my work wife). We work as a team and have shared many highs and lows that come along with treating people with cancer. We have rejoiced together, cried together and comforted each other as well as our patients. It is not uncommon for us to share a hug with each other, patients or family members both when we have great news (you're in remission!) or terrible news (I'm sorry but you only have a few months to live).

I am also in general kind of a touchy person. I commonly give people a reassuring squeeze of the shoulder, a pat on the leg, both men and women.

I now find that I'm questioning all of the above. I'm now concerned that actions that are meant to share comfort, reassurance or joy may be unwanted and perhaps I am creating a hostile work environment for my female coworkers and patients.

It has been suggested that I should ask permission before touching someone. I'm not sure how to always do that. "I just told you that you have an incurable cancer and have 6 months to live. Would you be OK if I give you are comforting squeeze of the shoulder?" Also, since it is not an equal relationship for either my staff or patients, would I be putting them in an awkward position by asking and would they feel comfortable responding truthfully?

I think being a "touchy" person is maybe just kind of gross in general. I have often been told by patients/families that I am compassionate but maybe I've been crossing a line without realizing it. Even if I'm only making 1 in 100 people uncomfortable, I think that is still problematic.

Do you think the best policy is just no touch with the opposite sex in the workplace?

I also had dinner and drinks with a co-worker last week (she was director of a research program I once led) that I've known for 15 years and found myself thinking about the Pence rule and whether I should apply it.

I know it's ridiculous but I can't stop questioning whether I need to re-evaluate all this stuff.

I've always operated under no touching of anyone. Regardless of gender. I taught school for a bit and it's not even whether or not the person you touch has an issue, it's anyone who sees it. I've known teachers that have been accused of stuff and I am 99.9% sure they are innocent but that doesn't mean that the accusation just goes away. It'll linger for years.

I think it is hard to have a definitive guideline that avoids all problematic situations. The position I try to maintain and be aware of which seems to apply not only to social but also physical interactions: is this a dialogue or am I the only one getting something out of this.
I am not a touchy feely person, but in tech there are lots of situations where I am working closely inside someone's personal space. Watching over their shoulder, reaching across the keyboard, and I try very to be conscious about how my need to resolve an issue quickly and efficiently might conflict with the personal boundaries of the human I am working with.
And that goes both directions... I work with huggers, people that work with kids and have no sense of boundaries, people that focus on the task at hand and are either oblivious to or uncaring of the optics of a situation.

I can't imagine being in your situation. I am barely capable of processing my own feelings, much less the extreme emotions of others.

The sheer weight and momentous nature of the situation would make me think that any gesture of offering comfort would be hard to misread as some sort of opportunistic attempt to cop a feel.

In the moment is probably rough, but building a statement or routine early in the introduction. "I know that this is a stressful time for you, but we are here to help as much as we can. Everyone processes things a bit differently both good and bad, and comforting gestures can be stressful for some people. Please let us know if anything here makes you uncomfortable and we will do our best to address it. Wanna make out?"

Yeah, I address stress with humor. I don't get invited to many funerals anymore.

Well, dang, I thought I was getting off easy not having to hash out my thoughts on the subject. I liked the way Clocky and Hyp explained things in the other thread.

I'm going to keep it simple for now and may say more later, but Doc Joe, the situation that you describe is, to me, not problematic at all. Now, if you are turning hugs into gropes, then yeah, don't do that. I'm not a particularly touchy person, but I can take a hug, and sometimes it means everything.

As one of those people who really does not like to be touched, a "no touching without explicit permission" policy is the way to go. You can't possibly know if the person wants to be touched or not, and they may not say anything ... but inside they are screaming "get away from me!" And that's not even considering the sexual aspect of it.

Rezzy wrote:

The sheer weight and momentous nature of the situation would make me think that any gesture of offering comfort would be hard to misread as some sort of opportunistic attempt to cop a feel.

It's not - at all. I've been made VERY uncomfortable at wedding, funerals, and pretty much everything in between. The pressure in those situations is even greater to avoid a scene. Follow the kindergarden rule: keep your hands to yourself.

The failure is from the top. I don't have a lot of respect for how Walgreens does a lot of stuff, especially around racial issues. But around 2002 or so, they began to take sexual harassment serious. All of management are required to attend an annual meeting to go over the policies, as well as watch videos and discuss all the concerns people have. These are co-ed meetings, and the discussions ranged from very helpful and supportive, to exhaustingly annoying when trying to answer every "What if" situation.

But what I was most impressed with is how well the policies worked. They created guidelines, line of communication, and expectations on how to report abuse. They also made crystal clear that management's willingness to ignore results in lawsuits that damage the company. You can get fired for ignoring complaints.

Once this started, I estimate about a dozen men I knew and worked with have been fired. Not a single instance was remotely in the innocent show of compassion realm. One was a manager that would constantly harass an employee working under him to go out with him., He would follow her out on breaks, and really made her miserable. That douche got fired, with a pregnant wife at home. Another manager, a guy I really liked and talked sports with all the time, was telling insanely offensive jokes to one of the cosmeticians.

I was even part of getting a manager fired. I had walked up to the camera department to check in with the girl (when I use girl in these types of stories, it mean under 20) running the department that day, she didn't look up at me and was kind of rude. I was taken aback because we really got along well. I maybe even had a DocJoe moment. So I asked what was wrong, and then she looked up and apologized. But I pressed her, wanting to know who she thought I was, and what was going on.

Eventually she told me that one of the other managers would come to camera and stand real close and talk to her, asking her out, telling her how much better sexually and such than he was than her boyfriend. And in camera, he could position himself so that they were sort of hid from the store. She felt trapped and miserable. I told her, and this is straight out of the policies, that what she told me sounded like harassment. I had to report this to the store manger. I told her that Wasn't asking her if I could, but that I was required to. But if she wanted to come in and talk to him herself, or come in with me, I would be okay wit hat. But I was gong to be talking to him the next norming regardless. If she wanted time to talk to him first, I would giver her that.

She got a little freaked. She didn't want to get him in trouble, and didn't want to make a scene. Luckily at the store I was working at the time, the general manager was exactly the kind of guy you would want in this situation. I didn't tell another soul until the next morning. She didn't want to come in, so I did it alone. I came in early, because this was one of those managers that always got in earlier than everyone else. It gave me an opportunity to talk to him privately without raising much of an alarm. It turns out, the guy had been transferred to our store because of a similar situation at his previous store. This was his last chance. Within a couple days, he was fired.

Now, if an innocent show of compassion does raise an alarm, just listen. You are either reading the situation wrong, or you are compassioning wrong. But don't overreact. You don't get fired for that. That's a learning moment. Listening to the women you wanted to comfort and finding out why your action had the opposite effect is important. Because there are guys that are looking for any chance to show compassion, and women are well aware of who they are.

I think the moment it really hit me, just how different my life was than women, in this regard, was a conversation with my wife about our daughter. She explained to me how important it was to respect the feeling of our daughter if she wanted to avoid certain men, especially relatives. She explained it as a sense girls have, or even some shared stories that never get told to the men in the family. So if she really resisted being a lone with a certain cousin or uncle, she just wanted me to obliger her and not make a scene about being nice to her relatives.

Another moment it hit me, and I'm tooting my own horn here, is when a woman at Walgreens was introducing me to a new employee she was training (different store and a coulee years before the other incident I mentioned). She referred to me as one of the good guys that she could go to and trust. I kind of looked shocked, and she explained that it was unfortunate that so many of the managers they hire are straight out of college and only want to focus on the young girls that work there, and are not always being helpful. I got a glimpse of women sharing stories of who to trust and not to. There are some managers that women will never allow themselves to be alone with.

I kind of understand why some men are getting a little freaked. But I just don't see innocent men getting caught up in this. No one is getting fired for a hug. That's not what's in the stories we are reading. That's not what this is about.

Thanks for the feedback gang. I think the nontouch policy is the way to go, I’m going to just have to get better at consoling in other ways. Or maybe that’s really just not my role anyways, that’s why people have families.

Aetius wrote:

As one of those people who really does not like to be touched, a "no touching without explicit permission" policy is the way to go. You can't possibly know if the person wants to be touched or not, and they may not say anything ... but inside they are screaming "get away from me!" And that's not even considering the sexual aspect of it.

To be really clear, this topic is really only about the sexual nature of it, and the abuse of power that drives it. I doubt you are going to want to report and have someone fired or arrested for hugging you at an appropriate moment, like at a wedding or funeral. Now, if you have made it clear that you don't want that touch, and they do it anyway, it moves from an appropriate gesture to one centered on power, the person hugging you is ignoring your wishes to hug you anyway. That's a problem.

I only bring this up because what you are describing has nothing to do with the current discussion of sexual harassment. Just because a woman accepts a hug from one person, doesn't mean they have to accept them from all. It's never about the hug, but the meaning behind it. What you are describing is a separate issue, and one that should be respected. But it doesn't provide you insight into what women are dealing with in terms of sexual harassment.

And really, hugs are pretty rare in the workplace. Hugs are for welcoming people you have not seen in a long time, or showing compassion when something particular terrible is going on. But that is pretty rare. So if you find yourself often finding good reasons to hug women at your work, stop that.

Jayhawker wrote:

And really, hugs are pretty rare in the workplace. Hugs are for welcoming people you have not seen in a long time, or showing compassion when something particular terrible is going on. But that is pretty rare. So if you find yourself often finding good reasons to hug women at your work, stop that.

I'd imagine in DocJoe's line of work as an oncologist, this can be a fairly common occurrence.

Nomad wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

And really, hugs are pretty rare in the workplace. Hugs are for welcoming people you have not seen in a long time, or showing compassion when something particular terrible is going on. But that is pretty rare. So if you find yourself often finding good reasons to hug women at your work, stop that.

I'd imagine in DocJoe's line of work as an oncologist, this can be a fairly common occurrence.

I gave a patient with metastatic lung cancer news of a clean scan yesterday. I thought her husband was going to break my ribs he squeezed me so hard.

So yeah, a bit of a different work environment.

I couldn't disagree more with "no touching at all costs everywhere all the time indefinitely." We're turning into a society of binary automatons where it's either black or white, yes or no, right or wrong, us vs them. There's no subtlety, nuance, or THOUGHT in anything anymore.

I'm sorry but consoling someone over a cancer diagnosis and sexually groping children is NOT THE SAME THING. Getting a sloppy kiss from Aunt Mary on Christmas is not going to ruin anyone's life. We are slowly receding from a social culture into people who sit behind screens all day and want less and less human interaction. Just look at toxic masculinity as an example: men are not allowed to cry or show any affection toward another man. Men are way less likely today to admit platonic love for another man and they never hug beyond a half-ass "bro hug."

I'm also tired of complex issues being conflated into the same damn thing to prevent the very whisp of a chance of inappropriateness. The fact that the "Pence rule" is seriously being discussed is absurd to me. Look at the Al Franken issue: what he did was not funny and was wrong - full stop. But please stop lumping him in with real predators like Harvey Weinstein, Roger Ailes, Louis CK, Roy Moore, and Donald Trump!

Saying there should be no touching ever eve ever ever is just silly to me. It makes good people like Doc second guess every interaction he's ever had. We should absolutely check ourselves (as I have done) and audit our actions and behaviors to see how they may have affected others - but wholesale stopping is only going to adversely affect good people and the sh*tty people will just keep on doing whatever they want anyway. We should be able to say there is appropriate and inappropriate touching. We should be able to say men and women can be platonic friends and have dinner alone.

It's just really sad to me. That's my rambling $0.02.

My optometrist is an older man (I'd guess 60s or 70s). He's touched me on the leg...above the knee...a couple of times. I don't like it, but it doesn't bug me enough to switch practices or say something. I wish he wouldn't though.

I'd be pissed if my husband were hugging another woman at work. I'd be okay with the occasional contact ( hug when person is leaving the job for instance), but as a regular occurrence I'd be very uncomfortable.

I have gotten hugs from some doctors before, but that's generally been if I were in tears first, most of my doctors are women, and they do offer rather than just touch.

Docjoe wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

And really, hugs are pretty rare in the workplace. Hugs are for welcoming people you have not seen in a long time, or showing compassion when something particular terrible is going on. But that is pretty rare. So if you find yourself often finding good reasons to hug women at your work, stop that.

I'd imagine in DocJoe's line of work as an oncologist, this can be a fairly common occurrence.

I gave a patient with metastatic lung cancer news of a clean scan yesterday. I thought her husband was going to break my ribs he squeezed me so hard.

So yeah, a bit of a different work environment.

Agreed.

Context is everything.

I think as a doctor, showing compassion in the form of appropriate body contact is okay. That's different to casually striking up a conversation and going in for contact with a newbie in the team or a new patient. In your situation you have a tight knit team that regularly shares patients' joys and despair - it sounds like it's how your particular treatment team keep their mental state healthy. It is likely to be different where a new nurse or colleague joined the team or your first patient consultation and body contact was immediately happening.

However something you need to consider is whether you need to cultivate a professional distance, to be somewhat dispassionate inside yourself, so that you maintain objectivity and preserve your own mental wellbeing. I say this as a lawyer dealing with tragic circumstances on a routine basis. You are also human and by caring too much it can unduly influence both the exercise of your skill and become something for which you need counselling for your own sake.

Jayhawker wrote:

To be really clear, this topic is really only about the sexual nature of it, and the abuse of power that drives it.

The thread description wrote:

This is to discuss how men may be inadvertently creating a hostile environment for their female coworkers and how to make it better.

I understood this thread to be about Docjoe's concerns that his actions might be misinterpreted by the other person, and how to ensure that doesn't happen.

I only bring this up because what you are describing has nothing to do with the current discussion of sexual harassment. (...) But it doesn't provide you insight into what women are dealing with in terms of sexual harassment.

Not directly, no - I'm not a woman. But I do know there are women out there who are like me - and that's not considering someone who is a rape victim or abuse victim. I have no idea what that's like, but I can infer from my experience that such a person would be horrified to be touched during an emotional moment ... and also probably wouldn't say anything.

It's never about the hug, but the meaning behind it. What you are describing is a separate issue, and one that should be respected.

No, it's not about the meaning behind it at all. It's about how the target of the gesture perceives it. You may have meant it well, but that doesn't mean a damn thing when you're traumatizing someone.

I'll add this:

While asking permission to hug or otherwise offer physical comfort to someone might feel awkward at first, it really doesn't take long before it's an automatic and comfortable and easy thing to do. People are pretty never going to be offended if you ask "may I give you a hug?" or "would you like a hug?" They might be surprised if they're not used to people asking, but not upset. And, this gives you a moment to size up their body language and such and you can retract your query or soften it with something like "If you'd rather not, that's fine!" and even widening the space between you a bit to avoid any sense of pressure. And later, if you feel like you should offer another hug, go ahead and ask again! It only takes a moment.

If someone says "yes, always" or something, you can try to remember that--but if you can't recall for sure, asking again is never the wrong thing to do.

This, of course, assumes that the context is one in which such an offer is appropriate--and emotional things like DocJoe is describing certainly fit the bill. Also that you take "no" for an answer and don't ask the same person again for a while.

In short: Don't assume that people are okay being touched, but don't fear offering in appropriate situations. Affirmative consent will help make sure that everyone feels comfortable and understands what's being offered and doesn't feel pressured in any way.

More broadly, in my own circle of friends and loved ones we also do this as a matter of course. It's not just something useful for professional caring situations.

Edited to add: And, as a feminist, I'll also say: You should offer in the same situations to people of all genders. If you wouldn't ask a man, you shouldn't ask a woman. Conversely, if you would ask a woman, you should also ask a man. (And people of other genders or no gender obviously also.) This is important because we're conditioned to make assumptions based on gender or appearance that some people obviously need and accept physical comfort, and also assumptions that others do not. Don't make assumptions, just ask, because those assumptions are pretty much completely broken. (I expect someone working in a caring profession probably already gets that more than most, seeing a lot of people in extreme distress. Just because someone looks like Danny Trejo doesn't mean they couldn't use a hug.)

Aetius wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

To be really clear, this topic is really only about the sexual nature of it, and the abuse of power that drives it.

The thread description wrote:

This is to discuss how men may be inadvertently creating a hostile environment for their female coworkers and how to make it better.

I understood this thread to be about Docjoe's concerns that his actions might be misinterpreted by the other person, and how to ensure that doesn't happen.

I only bring this up because what you are describing has nothing to do with the current discussion of sexual harassment. (...) But it doesn't provide you insight into what women are dealing with in terms of sexual harassment.

Not directly, no - I'm not a woman. But I do know there are women out there who are like me - and that's not considering someone who is a rape victim or abuse victim. I have no idea what that's like, but I can infer from my experience that such a person would be horrified to be touched during an emotional moment ... and also probably wouldn't say anything.

It's never about the hug, but the meaning behind it. What you are describing is a separate issue, and one that should be respected.

No, it's not about the meaning behind it at all. It's about how the target of the gesture perceives it. You may have meant it well, but that doesn't mean a damn thing when you're traumatizing someone.

I disagree. I have extreme eczema, and sometimes my breakouts are really visible and embarrassing. I HATE when people ask me about my skin and sores. It’s embarrassing. But there is huge difference between the person asking, that doesn’t understand how I feel, and the person that refuses to take a hint and won’t stop offering me advice, as though I’m too stupid to have already read about and tried everything that gets posted on the internet.

The innocent question may make me feel bad, but I would never try to hold them accountable for that. It’s the person who refuses to adjust their behavior when my feelings have been expressed, whether directly or indirectly, that are problematic. And yes, from co-workers to relatives, I have had to ask people to stop.

So, no, despite how traumatized my niece made me feel when she asked about my arm, along with the disgusted look on her face when I explained I had eczema, I did not feel she did anything wrong. But when her mother would not shut up about all the things I could put on it, or what foods I should or should not eat, and on and on, despite me changing the topic every time, she offended me. It was no longer about me, but her.

No one is going to ban hugs at weddings and funerals because one guy at the ceremony has his own issues with them. You just have to realize it is your issue, not everyone else’s. Now, if you make it clear and some jerk feels like forcing the issue on you anyway, then they are an ass. But that’s when it became about power and no longer about compassion.

I still don’t think it helps to conflate the real issues facing women in society with a bunch of #metoo’s from men about issues that aren’t equivalent. It only serves to muddle the point women are trying to make.

The real point is that we need to listen, and to realize that empathy is not explaining how you have it bad, too.

Another thing to consider is how a third party sees the contact. A friend of mines almost got fired over a hug even though the lady didn't have a problem with the hug. Her ex boyfriend made the complaint. That situation got messy and ended with the ex losing his job.

My manager or supervisor got in trouble for harassing me. The big boss made it clear that she would be dealt with. I told her she didn't do anything and I felt fine around her. I was the only guy at this place. I know she was fired but I'm not sure if it had anything to do with me.

At another placed I worked at Reggie had a problem with one of the gay guys always hugging and kissing me. I told him he could give me all the hugs and kisses he wanted. Nothing bad happen from it besides Reggie being put off.

MathGoddess wrote:

My optometrist is an older man (I'd guess 60s or 70s). He's touched me on the leg...above the knee...a couple of times. I don't like it, but it doesn't bug me enough to switch practices or say something. I wish he wouldn't though.

If we want to talk about this case by case, this seems wrong to me. I've never been touched on the leg by an eye doctor. This would raise a red flag for me and I would automatically be defensive around this person.

I appreciate everyone’s comments. Obviously interpersonal relationships are really complex and I know my work environment is atypical. As a doctor I think I allow myself to get closer to my patients than most. I have served as best man in our hospital chapel for a dying 24 year old who wanted to marry his girlfriend a few days before he died. I have on many occasions given patients a kiss goodbye (on the forehead) as they were preparing to die. It has never felt weird or awkward and not even a tiny bit sexual.

But now even as I type it, it makes me sound like a creep. If even one person feels uncomfortable then it is just not OK. And it sounds like there are probably many who would feel it is not OK.

Honestly, no, it doesn't make you seem like a creep in the slightest. This is all normal human behavior. Unless you are getting feedback otherwise, I don't think you really have anything to worry about.

I agree with Jayhawker. None of what you have said sounds the least bit creepy Doc.

I definitely don't think anything you've described falls into "creepy". But, there might have been some people who felt uncomfortable but didn't feel like they could say anything. (Not thinking you're a creep, but thinking you're normal and feeling like they're not). That's what being more proactive about asking should help with.

I agree too, not creepy at all Doc. It sounds kind and compassionate.

I guess I’m going to have to mull this over some more.

Am I the only one thinking about this? I guess maybe I’m just more touchy feely at work than most.

Personally, I'm mostly in the Aetius boat. I dont want to be touched by colleagues. It is awkward.

But working at a hospital you likely build up a much different relationship with both colleagues and some patients. Hugging seems fairly appropriate in the situations described here.

Asking does seems like a sensible road if in doubt though.
When you work in a place where hugging/comforting people is something that might occur often, to me it would also seem sensible if the topic was discussed as part of work environment policy.
Both when it comes to colleagues and patients. At least it could prevent losing ones job over it, even if you can never prevent that people might feel discomfort over an unwanted hug.
In the end one might have to weight the comfort you bring to some people versus the discomfort it might bring others. Seems to me the former makes it worth it, when we are talking very ill patients.

I would not be patting anyone on the leg. Also throw the Pence rule in the trash where it belongs.

Docjoe wrote:

I guess I’m going to have to mull this over some more.

Am I the only one thinking about this? I guess maybe I’m just more touchy feely at work than most.

I'm sure you're not the only one thinking about it, but for many of us, our workplaces are such that it's not even something that comes up. The only physical contact I have with co-workers is a handshake when I meet them for the first time. A hug would be so far out of the realm of normal office conduct for me that it would be glaringly wrong from the outset. But then again, my co-workers aren't weeping about the person in the next room who's about to die.

Here's my main takeaway - you're right to be thinking about it, not because I think you're necessarily doing anything wrong, but because we all could serve to be more considerate of how our conduct affects those around us.

I was glancing over my SO's shoulder and saw this thread, and just wanted to add a few comments.

First, oh gosh, no, DocJoe, I don't think it makes you sound creepy that you want to offer comfort to desperately ill people. ;__;

I think Hypatian's answer best matches my own feelings. There are some people who find physical touch discomforting and offputting, and they may not want to tell you "don't touch me", but it's still how they feel. But there are also a lot of people who find it invaluable: who will really, deeply appreciate that hug or pat on the shoulder. The "never touch anyone" rule may be "safe" in the sense that you will not get sued over it and that no one will think you are a bad person for not touching people. But it is not consequence-free: it denies comfort to those who do want contact. American society on the whole is pretty hostile to touch, and this creates a climate with lots of people who would really, really like a hug and can't get one. This is not a good result.

When my partner was diagnosed with cancer, the physician's assistant who told us asked "do you want a hug?" I did. My partner didn't. The question didn't feel awkward or annoying to me. I got a hug and my partner didn't and we were all happy with this result.

As Hypatian said, it's best to treat people the same regardless of gender. When it comes to things like hugs and shoulder pats, I don't think there's a strong enough gender bias that you can be confident that people of one gender will think it's fine or that another gender would find it offensive. Ask everyone. Maybe practice how you'd ask and how you want to phrase the question until it no longer feels weird. Give people the option to back out gracefully: "I find a pat on the shoulder comforting but certainly understand if you don't." Maybe talk to some of your colleagues and see what they think would work best?

Please do not use that horrible rule about never being alone with a female colleague. It's a rule designed to protect men from accusations. It doesn't actually protect women from harassment and it does prevent women from having the kinds of career opportunities that men have access to. It is not a good rule.

I like that you are thinking about this stuff, even though I don't think there's anything inherently creepy about your behavior. It is, inevitably, going to put off some people because people are extremely diverse in their reactions. That is more about them than it is about you -- but you still want to take that into account and be considerate of their feelings, too, and of the fact that you are not going to be tell just by looking which group people fall into.

*hugs* I hope you are able to find a good balance here that doesn't require you to stop touching people.

DocJoe, you're not doing anything creepy. It's coming from a good place and your profession requires compassion. I wouldn't change what you are doing.