[Discussion] What comes next? Liber-all

American liberals and progressives now face their biggest challenge in a generation: What do we do with 4 years of a trump presidency, a republican congress, a likely conservative supreme court and most states under complete republican control?

This thread is not meant as a forum for discussing HOW or WHY democrats got destroyed in the 2016 election. It's meant for finding a way forward.

Please don't think I'm not fearful of what the current behavior of R's has been. It is disgusting and every single one of them should be ashamed and I hope that all of them get their comeuppance (and the historian in me is awaiting their delicious, delicious schadenfreude moment b/c it will come. It always comes.). And their victims and the folks that will suffer under their policies need help, which they will only seem to get from the Left.

We can ALSO continue to reach out to the Right and show them the error of their ways via the tools we have always used to eat away at Conservatism: logic, reason, evidence, science, and being direct.

Withdrawing? No thanks.

Top_Shelf wrote:

Please don't think I'm not fearful of what the current behavior of R's has been. It is disgusting and every single one of them should be ashamed and I hope that all of them get their comeuppance (and the historian in me is awaiting their delicious, delicious schadenfreude moment b/c it will come. It always comes.). And their victims and the folks that will suffer under their policies need help, which they will only seem to get from the Left.

We can ALSO continue to reach out to the Right and show them the error of their ways via the tools we have always used to eat away at Conservatism: logic, reason, evidence, science, and being direct.

Withdrawing? No thanks.

I'm all for reaching out and bringing people to our side. All I'm saying is, I don't see what productive conversation I can have with someone who won't join me on the common ground of "Child rapists are bad, and we shouldn't make them government representatives"

logic, reason, evidence, science,

Ummmmm...........

Top_Shelf wrote:

Please don't think I'm not fearful of what the current behavior of R's has been. It is disgusting and every single one of them should be ashamed and I hope that all of them get their comeuppance (and the historian in me is awaiting their delicious, delicious schadenfreude moment b/c it will come. It always comes.). And their victims and the folks that will suffer under their policies need help, which they will only seem to get from the Left.

We can ALSO continue to reach out to the Right and show them the error of their ways via the tools we have always used to eat away at Conservatism: logic, reason, evidence, science, and being direct.

Withdrawing? No thanks.

As far as I'm concerned, the right has burned all bridges with me, and I don't think we're all on the same team. I have no interest in reconciling, reasoning, or even talking to them. I just want to bury them in opposing votes and then completely ignore them forever after.

Mormech wrote:
Top_Shelf wrote:

Please don't think I'm not fearful of what the current behavior of R's has been. It is disgusting and every single one of them should be ashamed and I hope that all of them get their comeuppance (and the historian in me is awaiting their delicious, delicious schadenfreude moment b/c it will come. It always comes.). And their victims and the folks that will suffer under their policies need help, which they will only seem to get from the Left.

We can ALSO continue to reach out to the Right and show them the error of their ways via the tools we have always used to eat away at Conservatism: logic, reason, evidence, science, and being direct.

Withdrawing? No thanks.

As far as I'm concerned, the right has burned all bridges with me, and I don't think we're all on the same team. I have no interest in reconciling, reasoning, or even talking to them. I just want to bury them in opposing votes and then completely ignore them forever after.

Small (or large, I guess) disagreement. Ignore them at your own peril, but I do think the stuff on trying economically benefit the whole country (remember, those red states have more than their fair share of the not top 1%).

Ignore their racist/misogyny/homophobia clamoring except as a reminder of how we cannot let the American Ideal slip so far again.

Hardcore alt righters are probably a lost cause. If a progressive person reached out to them they would probably recoil even closer towards their extremist views.

Someone who is alt-right adjacent, though is a different story. While I don’t believe you can convince them to be progressive, you might be able to pull them away from extremist attitudes. Just a little. And though that might seem hopeless or pointless, it’s a step in the right direction.

People who are on the fence, or even fence adjacent Republicans, are the ones that might become our allies. We need more Rs who are firmly in the moderate camp.

But winning hearts and minds is a difficult art to master. It must be done gently. Confrontational arguments will most likely be perceived as an attack, and cause a person to go on the defensive. What we really want to do is encourage a little bit of open mindedness.

FWIW there are a lot of people out there who define themselves as “conservatives” but who are not in lock step with Trump and his minions. They pretty much want the same thing that a lot of progressives do - good government, a prosperous nation, and a better future for their families. Also, politics isn’t that important for a lot of people, and drawing a “you’re with us or against us” hard line is not going to help convince them to get off the fence and get involved.

jdzappa wrote:

FWIW there are a lot of people out there who define themselves as “conservatives” but who are not in lock step with Trump and his minions. They pretty much want the same thing that a lot of progressives do - good government, a prosperous nation, and a better future for their families. Also, politics isn’t that important for a lot of people, and drawing a “you’re with us or against us” hard line is not going to help convince them to get off the fence and get involved.

If that was true they’d be regularly calling their representatives, the same as we are, and demanding that we don’t allow our democracy to be stolen by foreign actors and US oligarchs. They would be just as upset about the law-breaking by Trump and the blatant disregard for democracy. They don’t seem to really care that much about these things so I’m struggling to see how much we’re on the same side.

As far as I see they’re happily swilling “liberal tears” while we fight for our future and THEIR future.

DSGamer wrote:

If that was true they’d be regularly calling their representatives, the same as we are, and demanding that we don’t allow our democracy to be stolen by foreign actors and US oligarchs.

I hate to be a doomsayer, but the US government is for sale to the highest bidder. Phone calls to your representatives aren’t going to change that. But don’t worry. Trump said if he was elected he would abolish the lobby system. I’m sure he’s working on it right now.

RawkGWJ wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

If that was true they’d be regularly calling their representatives, the same as we are, and demanding that we don’t allow our democracy to be stolen by foreign actors and US oligarchs.

I hate to be a doomsayer, but the US government is for sale to the highest bidder. Phone calls to your representatives aren’t going to change that. But don’t worry. Trump said if he was elected he would abolish the lobby system. I’m sure he’s working on it right now.

Oh, I totally get that. I just want to return to the previous broken system where at least we didn’t have to worry daily about nuclear war or emboldened Nazis.

DSGamer wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

FWIW there are a lot of people out there who define themselves as “conservatives” but who are not in lock step with Trump and his minions. They pretty much want the same thing that a lot of progressives do - good government, a prosperous nation, and a better future for their families. Also, politics isn’t that important for a lot of people, and drawing a “you’re with us or against us” hard line is not going to help convince them to get off the fence and get involved.

If that was true they’d be regularly calling their representatives, the same as we are, and demanding that we don’t allow our democracy to be stolen by foreign actors and US oligarchs. They would be just as upset about the law-breaking by Trump and the blatant disregard for democracy. They don’t seem to really care that much about these things so I’m struggling to see how much we’re on the same side.

As far as I see they’re happily swilling “liberal tears” while we fight for our future and THEIR future.

I guess it all depends on your viewpoint and how bad the conservatives are in your life. I get that some of you have talked about your KKK neighbors and total a-hole family members who want to "kill a libtard for Christ." I don't doubt those people exist and are frightening. But that's not necessarily my experience out here in the Seattle area were there are a lot of moderate conservatives who are just all around awesome people. And a number of state level Republican leaders and local conservative voices like Michael Medved have actively spoken out against Trump.

I guess what I'm saying is what I've respected about this board is that while it's pretty liberal there hasn't been a total demonization of people with different views. Until recently.

jdzappa wrote:

I guess what I'm saying is what I've respected about this board is that while it's pretty liberal there hasn't been a total demonization of people with different views. Until recently.

While I like your post, and this is something that liberals have to struggle with, (for effectiveness in converting neutral people if nothing else) it's important to keep in mind the broader context of American conservatism continuing to get more and more conservative and deplorable, and Republican politicians continuing to sink to new lows. It's not at all clear to me that increased disdain for the GOP and their staunch supporters on these forums has been out of scope to their increased actions and views deserving disdain.

jdzappa wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

FWIW there are a lot of people out there who define themselves as “conservatives” but who are not in lock step with Trump and his minions. They pretty much want the same thing that a lot of progressives do - good government, a prosperous nation, and a better future for their families. Also, politics isn’t that important for a lot of people, and drawing a “you’re with us or against us” hard line is not going to help convince them to get off the fence and get involved.

If that was true they’d be regularly calling their representatives, the same as we are, and demanding that we don’t allow our democracy to be stolen by foreign actors and US oligarchs. They would be just as upset about the law-breaking by Trump and the blatant disregard for democracy. They don’t seem to really care that much about these things so I’m struggling to see how much we’re on the same side.

As far as I see they’re happily swilling “liberal tears” while we fight for our future and THEIR future.

I guess it all depends on your viewpoint and how bad the conservatives are in your life. I get that some of you have talked about your KKK neighbors and total a-hole family members who want to "kill a libtard for Christ." I don't doubt those people exist and are frightening. But that's not necessarily my experience out here in the Seattle area were there are a lot of moderate conservatives who are just all around awesome people. And a number of state level Republican leaders and local conservative voices like Michael Medved have actively spoken out against Trump.

I guess what I'm saying is what I've respected about this board is that while it's pretty liberal there hasn't been a total demonization of people with different views. Until recently.

You’re missing my point. The conservatives in my life are great people by and large. They’re civically engaged, donate money and time to worthy causes, and care deeply about the country and their fellow Americans. And I think there’s a substantial number across the country that fall that way.

But it’s not enough right now. Conservatives have created a party that seems to be falling under the control of Nazis (or Nazi-tolerating) folks. They’ve created a party that’s providing cover for an administration that is every day doing lasting damage to the US and its institutions.

So my point is precisely because I love and respect these family and friends I expect more from them and I’ve been severely disappointed. There shouldn’t be “sides” when it comes to how Trump conducts himself, the rise of Nazis in his party, or his daily assault on our norms and values. This should be easy stuff to speak out against and yet they don’t. I find this profoundly disappointing.

Of course, I was disappointed by liberals who excused Obama’s continuation of our unfunded, sprawling wars and the surveillance of the American people as well.

I feel like some of us have ideals that don’t change depending on who’s in charge. I thought most of my conservative friends and family members did. And I’ve been let down in a way that may sometimes come off as “demonization”, but I promise you it’s not that. I feel like they’re a lost cause because we need them now. We need ideological and moral rigor and they’re failing this test.

jdzappa wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

FWIW there are a lot of people out there who define themselves as “conservatives” but who are not in lock step with Trump and his minions. They pretty much want the same thing that a lot of progressives do - good government, a prosperous nation, and a better future for their families. Also, politics isn’t that important for a lot of people, and drawing a “you’re with us or against us” hard line is not going to help convince them to get off the fence and get involved.

If that was true they’d be regularly calling their representatives, the same as we are, and demanding that we don’t allow our democracy to be stolen by foreign actors and US oligarchs. They would be just as upset about the law-breaking by Trump and the blatant disregard for democracy. They don’t seem to really care that much about these things so I’m struggling to see how much we’re on the same side.

As far as I see they’re happily swilling “liberal tears” while we fight for our future and THEIR future.

I guess it all depends on your viewpoint and how bad the conservatives are in your life. I get that some of you have talked about your KKK neighbors and total a-hole family members who want to "kill a libtard for Christ." I don't doubt those people exist and are frightening. But that's not necessarily my experience out here in the Seattle area were there are a lot of moderate conservatives who are just all around awesome people. And a number of state level Republican leaders and local conservative voices like Michael Medved have actively spoken out against Trump.

I guess what I'm saying is what I've respected about this board is that while it's pretty liberal there hasn't been a total demonization of people with different views. Until recently.

I think it's their fight then.. I don't need to get involved.. if they are that passionate about making a difference and changing the GOP then they need to get at it.... because right now Fox News and the GOP don't seem to be anything like what you are describing and I keep seeing the crazy winning rather than losing.

There are a good chunk of conservatives who are one issue (abortion) voters and while they aren't turning a blind eye to any of this terrible sh*t going on, nothing will get them to vote democrat.

The one I spent a few hours talking to this weekend just didn't vote last year.

They aren't bad people.
They aren't dumb.
They aren't ignorant.

They're simply different and have a moral perspective that I disagree with. That's compounded with a victim complex because they see themselves as fighting for a divine right in an immoral world and they see themselves losing. What do people do then? Double down.

And I think a few of them can be converted to think about this differently. It's just so easy to dismiss them because they're so passionate about an issue that's been closed for decades.

To put a fine point on this, I’m not asking for much, jdzappa. I’m asking for my conservative friends and family to register their own concerns, assuming they have them, with the preisdent’s lawlessness and volatility. I’ve literally begged in-laws and friends to do this. Especially when Trump is going off about “little Rocket Man”.

I’m asking them to call their representatives and make sure their representatives understand that there will be political consequences for a nuclear war. That there will be consequences for supporting Nazis and the murder or silencing of political opponents.

That’s all I’m asking. Stand on the right side of history and do something, small as it is, to try and keep America safe. If enough conservatives did even these things, their congressmen would realize they don’t have to pander to the awful base Trump panders to. That their constituency is broader and more reasonable than we’ve been led to believe.

This is such a small thing and literally no one I’ve asked has done this.

oilypenguin wrote:

There are a good chunk of conservatives who are one issue (abortion) voters and while they aren't turning a blind eye to any of this terrible sh*t going on, nothing will get them to vote democrat.

The one I spent a few hours talking to this weekend just didn't vote last year.

They aren't bad people.
They aren't dumb.
They aren't ignorant.

They're simply different and have a moral perspective that I disagree with. That's compounded with a victim complex because they see themselves as fighting for a divine right in an immoral world and they see themselves losing. What do people do then? Double down.

And I think a few of them can be converted to think about this differently. It's just so easy to dismiss them because they're so passionate about an issue that's been closed for decades.

The problem I have with this way of thinking is that I can easily see it leading to a lot of liberals saying, "Well, maybe if we were willing to compromise on abortion, then..."

CaptainCrowbar wrote:

The problem I have with this way of thinking is that I can easily see it leading to a lot of liberals saying, "Well, maybe if we were willing to compromise on abortion, then..."

Litmus tests like this are how we end up with Democratic versions of Roy Moore who are absolute garbage fires of human waste but force us to vote against our conscience because certain issues are more important.

There comes a point where you say "No, nothing is worth putting this person in a position of power."

Call that 'willingness to compromise' if you like. I'll call it being a good person and a good citizen. If the only person in an election fit to represent me is an R (and everything that goes with it) versus someone who is completely unfit but has a D you can bet I'm voting R if even my non-vote or write-in vote has a chance of putting the unfit person in office.

Litmus tests are bad. Just ask my mom (faulty litmus test sent her home from the hospital while in labor with me.)

I'll compromise on abortion in a number of ways, including but not limited to:

1: Eliminating abstinence-only sex-ed, which has been shown time and again to not reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies
2: Mandate that long-term reversible birth control (e.g. IUDs) are covered by health insurance plans. They're a cheap and effective way to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies.
3: Massively fund adoption and foster services so that women who do carry kids they don't want to term have good options.
4: Provide free birth control in every high school in the country.

I want fewer abortions, just like conservatives do too. There's plenty of ways to work towards that, should they care to look.

Jolly Bill wrote:
CaptainCrowbar wrote:

The problem I have with this way of thinking is that I can easily see it leading to a lot of liberals saying, "Well, maybe if we were willing to compromise on abortion, then..."

Litmus tests like this are how we end up with Democratic versions of Roy Moore who are absolute garbage fires of human waste but force us to vote against our conscience because certain issues are more important.

There comes a point where you say "No, nothing is worth putting this person in a position of power."

Call that 'willingness to compromise' if you like. I'll call it being a good person and a good citizen. If the only person in an election fit to represent me is an R (and everything that goes with it) versus someone who is completely unfit but has a D you can bet I'm voting R if even my non-vote or write-in vote has a chance of putting the unfit person in office.

Litmus tests are bad. Just ask my mom (faulty litmus test sent her home from the hospital while in labor with me.)

I would argue that litmus test issues are what defines the core values of both parties.

I would also argue that there's not really single-issue voters.

The note signed by 50 Alabama pastors supporting Roy Moore made that clear. Yes, it mentioned abortion. But it also said that Moore was leading the fight in the culture war. That he was defender of the sanctity of marriage. That he was a champion for religious liberty. And that he was absolutely dedicated to "Biblical principles."

All of those issues are deeply intertwined because they're grounded in a particular flavor of religious belief. That means if someone is deeply against abortion because of their religious beliefs then the odds are very high that they're also going to be against gay marriage, feel that (white) Christianity is under attack, and a whole host of related political issues.

And it's similar for Democrats who are fervently pro-choice. It's an important issue, but it's also part of a constellation of other related issues from women's rights to the appropriate role of religion and religious beliefs in government.

It's not just about that one issue. It's about what that one issue represents.

OG_slinger wrote:

The note signed by 50 Alabama pastors supporting Roy Moore made that clear. Yes, it mentioned abortion. But it also said that Moore was leading the fight in the culture war. That he was defender of the sanctity of marriage. That he was a champion for religious liberty. And that he was absolutely dedicated to "Biblical principles."

FYI about that letter.

UPDATE: Nov. 14 ― The letter from Alabama pastors that Kayla Moore, the wife of Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore, posted Sunday to her Facebook page appears to be re-release of an endorsement originally written in August before the GOP primaries, AL.com reports.

The newer version deletes three paragraphs from the original letter, which still appears on Roy Moore’s campaign website and contains sentences urging voters to “join us at the polls on Tuesday, August 15th.”

At least two of the pastors listed as signatories on the recent post have said they were not contacted about the update, and have asked for their names to be removed.

Jolly Bill wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

The note signed by 50 Alabama pastors supporting Roy Moore made that clear. Yes, it mentioned abortion. But it also said that Moore was leading the fight in the culture war. That he was defender of the sanctity of marriage. That he was a champion for religious liberty. And that he was absolutely dedicated to "Biblical principles."

FYI about that letter.

UPDATE: Nov. 14 ― The letter from Alabama pastors that Kayla Moore, the wife of Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore, posted Sunday to her Facebook page appears to be re-release of an endorsement originally written in August before the GOP primaries, AL.com reports.

The newer version deletes three paragraphs from the original letter, which still appears on Roy Moore’s campaign website and contains sentences urging voters to “join us at the polls on Tuesday, August 15th.”

At least two of the pastors listed as signatories on the recent post have said they were not contacted about the update, and have asked for their names to be removed.

So they were OK, as Christian devouts, with his racism, misogyny, xenophobia, religious intolerance, and calls for violence... but sexual predation based on age is the line.

Well, at least there's a line.

Jolly Bill wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

The note signed by 50 Alabama pastors supporting Roy Moore made that clear. Yes, it mentioned abortion. But it also said that Moore was leading the fight in the culture war. That he was defender of the sanctity of marriage. That he was a champion for religious liberty. And that he was absolutely dedicated to "Biblical principles."

FYI about that letter.

UPDATE: Nov. 14 ― The letter from Alabama pastors that Kayla Moore, the wife of Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore, posted Sunday to her Facebook page appears to be re-release of an endorsement originally written in August before the GOP primaries, AL.com reports.

The newer version deletes three paragraphs from the original letter, which still appears on Roy Moore’s campaign website and contains sentences urging voters to “join us at the polls on Tuesday, August 15th.”

At least two of the pastors listed as signatories on the recent post have said they were not contacted about the update, and have asked for their names to be removed.

I used the number 50 for a reason. Fifty out of the 53 pastors who originally signed the letter are apparently still totally cool with their names and churches being associated with Moore. I'd say you were on to something if half or more of the pastors were distancing themselves from a pedophile, but that's not the case.

And when you add the poll from over the weekend that showed 37% of Alabama Evangelicals being *more* likely to vote for Moore because of the allegations, it tends to support the idea that they're voting for a particular worldview and not just someone who's against abortion.

I'd say that a calling the note 'signed by 50 Alabama pastors' to be a bit of an overstatement when you really mean the note 'after 1 day has yet to be refuted by 50 of the names fraudulently attached to it'.

Which has me kinda sticking with my litmus tests are bad approach.

I don't know, revoking your endorsement of the guy accused of multiple cases of sexual harassment of minors when you're a pastor seems like a bar so low you'd need special equipment to detect it let alone clear it.

I know every day seems like a year right now, but seriously it's only been 1 day. Not that these pastors are shining beacons of morality for their previous support of Moore or anything but I'm giving them at least another day to figure out social media or call a national news outlet before assuming their names on a fraudulent letter of support tacitly endorses him.

Edit: I mean, I'm not even sure I know how to put twitter on blast. I'm not gonna assume some likely 60 or 70 yr old southern preacher is going to know what to do within hours even if they are checking their voicemails.

Jolly Bill wrote:

I'd say that a calling the note 'signed by 50 Alabama pastors' to be a bit of an overstatement when you really mean the note 'after 1 day has yet to be refuted by 50 of the names fraudulently attached to it'.

Which has me kinda sticking with my litmus tests are bad approach.

The Washington Post broke the story about Moore on Thursday, five days ago. Moore's wife posted the edited letter on her Facebook account on Saturday and it was subsequently published by several news organizations.

Yesterday another woman claimed Moore had sexually assaulted her when she was a minor.

That only three out of the 53 pastors who signed that letter have bothered to refute their support of Moore five days after allegations broke nationally says a great deal. I say broke nationally because there's plenty of chatter going on that it was pretty common knowledge throughout certain circles in Alabama that Moore like them young, but they kept their mouths shut for various reasons.

And, yes, I'm going to say that pastors should be be pretty in tune with issues of morality and that it shouldn't take them five days--or five seconds--to weigh in on tricky moral problems like whether or not it's a bad for a man in his 30s to try to rape multiple teenaged girls. They should also remember that they signed a letter vouching for Moore's religious/moral street cred just three months ago and that their reputation--and the reputation of their churches--are now linked to a man that quite a few people say was banned from a shopping mall in the 80s because he bothered high school girls too much.

Apparently Sunday, so we're both wrong there.

Why not fault them for their previous support of Moore or their failure to speak out publicly since the Thursday allegations rather than use their names on a fraudulent letter as proof of even worse hypocrisy?

Is the onus really on the victims of fraud to be aware and refuting the contents of a letter they were not aware of within 48 hours?

Is this deserving of it's own thread?