[Discussion] How to enact Gun Safety

The scope of this discussion is strictly options or suggestions on HOW to create policy and law and how to implement them in the US so as to reduce the number of guns in the hands of those who intend to use them for criminal purposes.

Whether or not those options should be explored is not under debate. The 2nd Amendment is not under debate nor under discussion. The assumption of the thread is that "gun control" law is necessary at this point and which policies and laws are good to pursue on the basis of putative results.

Nomad wrote:

2. If the screenshots of his FB page turn out to be authentic, will his history of hatred toward Christians and Antifa ties qualify this event as a hate crime or terrorism or both? (Anyone know why they take down FB pages so quickly after events like these? Is it a criminal investigation thing?)

I have to ask, Nomad. Where are you getting your news?

If the FB screenshots turn out to be authentic then all we know is that at some point Kelly joined several atheist Facebook groups (likely in high school). And being an atheist is a very long way from hating Christians and light years away from hating Christians enough that you shoot up a church on Sunday morning.

Of course the claims that he hated Christians stands at odds with the fact that he taught vacation bible school for a First Baptist Church in Kingsville, Texas back in 2013, but that doesn't fit the narrative that Christians everywhere are persecuted and endangered.

It's been widely reported that law enforcement doesn't think the shooting was driven by racial or religious hatred, rather that it was an ongoing domestic situation. Kelley's wife, who he previously assaulted, was a former teacher at the same church and her parent's attended it as well.

That's a far more compelling reason for him--a convicted domestic abuser--shooting the place up than he was a Christian-hating atheist who was doing Antifa's bidding to start Civil War 2.0.

OG_slinger wrote:
Nomad wrote:

2. If the screenshots of his FB page turn out to be authentic, will his history of hatred toward Christians and Antifa ties qualify this event as a hate crime or terrorism or both? (Anyone know why they take down FB pages so quickly after events like these? Is it a criminal investigation thing?)

I have to ask, Nomad. Where are you getting your news?

If the FB screenshots turn out to be authentic then all we know is that at some point Kelly joined several atheist Facebook groups (likely in high school). And being an atheist is a very long way from hating Christians and light years away from hating Christians enough that you shoot up a church on Sunday morning.

Of course the claims that he hated Christians stands at odds with the fact that he taught vacation bible school for a First Baptist Church in Kingsville, Texas back in 2013, but that doesn't fit the narrative that Christians everywhere are persecuted and endangered.

It's been widely reported that law enforcement doesn't think the shooting was driven by racial or religious hatred, rather that it was an ongoing domestic situation. Kelley's wife, who he previously assaulted, was a former teacher at the same church and her parent's attended it as well.

That's a far more compelling reason for him--a convicted domestic abuser--shooting the place up than he was a Christian-hating atheist who was doing Antifa's bidding to start Civil War 2.0.

We’ll have to wait and see I guess.

Nomad wrote:

We’ll have to wait and see I guess.

Wait and see for what? Fox News is even calling bullshit on the antifa misinformation. If you are "waiting to see" then why not answer his question. Where are you getting your news?

Here's How A False Conspiracy Theory About The Texas Shooter Being Antifa Went Viral

But by the time news of the actual motivations of the shooter were shared by authorities, a false narrative had already taken hold thanks to right-wing commentators, websites, YouTubers, and other sources. With no evidence to back up their claims, they peddled a conspiracy theory that Kelley was affiliated with "antifa."
One of the first websites to write about the false narrative was YourNewsWire.com, which is known to spread conspiracy theories and misinformation.

IMAGE(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-11/6/12/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-02/sub-buzz-21691-1509990900-2.png?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)

The article went so far as to publish a fake account of what happened in the church, citing an unverified screenshot of a text message. The post has over 240,000 likes, shares, and comments on Facebook, and was shared more than 8,600 times on Twitter, according to social sharing tracking tool BuzzSumo.

It falsely claimed the shooter was carrying an "antifa" flag and said "this was a communist revolution." At the time it was published, no other outlets had reported the same details, which were completely fabricated.

To illustrate the post, YourNewsWire included an image of a Facebook profile for the shooter with an antifascist flag photoshopped in. This screenshot has since been shared to other social media, but it is not authentic.

IMAGE(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-11/6/12/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-03/sub-buzz-982-1509991016-11.png?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)

The Facebook page "Antifa United," which regularly posts news about the group and runs an online store, said the image of the flag was taken from its shop. It's also one of the first photos when searching for "antifa flag" on Google Images. An archive from January shows the image in the online store.

Ridiculous that people fall for this bullshit. But as said before it fits their belief so there’s no real attempt to fact Check or even listen to when it’s debunked. It’s just repeated and digested into their toxic view of the world. I bet if I visited my friend in Rockford IL all his friends would believe this exact fabrication.

Frustrating and depressing.

So Buzzfeed is now an impartial news source?

Nomad wrote:

So Buzzfeed is now an impartial news source?

They actually have some good reporters and have been practicing journalism for a while now. Their bread and butter money maker may be clickbait listicles, but that's better than Fox News' bread and butter.

DSGamer wrote:
Nomad wrote:

So Buzzfeed is now an impartial news source?

They actually have some good reporters and have been practicing journalism for a while now. Their bread and butter money maker may be clickbait listicles, but that's better than Fox News' bread and butter.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-s...

Nomad wrote:

So Buzzfeed is now an impartial news source?

Pardon me good sir, do you have a more reliable news source that states different? Thanks for your time!

Nomad wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Nomad wrote:

So Buzzfeed is now an impartial news source?

They actually have some good reporters and have been practicing journalism for a while now. Their bread and butter money maker may be clickbait listicles, but that's better than Fox News' bread and butter.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-s...

you linked to an nypost article.

Chairman_Mao wrote:
Nomad wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Nomad wrote:

So Buzzfeed is now an impartial news source?

They actually have some good reporters and have been practicing journalism for a while now. Their bread and butter money maker may be clickbait listicles, but that's better than Fox News' bread and butter.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-s...

you linked to an nypost article.

I’d say both are about equal in their dubiousness. Like I said, we’ll see. The major news outlets have yet to weigh in on motive.

So an article from a literal tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch that linked to another New York Post article that linked to a Daily Mail--Britain's premier tabloid newspaper--article, which referenced un-screenshotted Facebook comments from people that claimed that they went to highschool with Kelley with some extra commentary that boiled down to "I knew him in highschool and he was weird."

Reap should own all guns, then I'd know they're safe from being used against anyone! Stop selling!

I was frustrated by how long it took to show a pic of this guy, as well as the Vegas guy. I don't have any documentation, but I will tell you that I had to search and keep checking back to find pics of both of these murderous shitbags. It seems that when the attacker is a person of color, the pics are plastered all over every news site as soon as the person is identified. As soon as I didn't see a pic with the name, in each case, I knew the person was white. Just thought I'd point that out. I'm sure others have noticed the phenomenon. If we have such a "liberal media", why is this?

Good Lord. Does the Washington Post count as reliable?

“This was not racially motivated, it wasn’t over religious beliefs,” Freeman Martin, a regional director with the Texas Department of Public Safety, said at a news briefing Monday. “There was a domestic situation going on within the family and the in-laws.”

Link

Nomad wrote:

We’ll have to wait and see I guess.

But... you didn't wait and see. You came out and spread information about this shooting very early. Now when you are asked to corroborate that information you are demurring. It seems like you have two options "here is where I got my information" or "actually, I looked into that source and it really wasn't creditable at all, I don't even want to give them a link for more clicks."

I think that this spread baseless propaganda, and then try to wait out attempts for clarification is unacceptable for this website, especially considering the huge problem that the internet is having with this exact problem right now. This is a time for all of us holding each other to a higher standard for news sources, not a lower one.

Yonder wrote:
Nomad wrote:

We’ll have to wait and see I guess.

But... you didn't wait and see. You came out and spread information about this shooting very early. Now when you are asked to corroborate that information you are demurring. It seems like you have two options "here is where I got my information" or "actually, I looked into that source and it really wasn't creditable at all, I don't even want to give them a link for more clicks."

I think that this spread baseless propaganda, and then try to wait out attempts for clarification is unacceptable for this website, especially considering the huge problem that the internet is having with this exact problem right now. This is a time for all of us holding each other to a higher standard for news sources, not a lower one.

Yeah we might as well shut this whole place down if bullshit and baseless conspiracy theories are allowed to go "unmoderated". Or we are just 4chan/thedonald.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...

Trump claims Good guy with gun prevented hundreds more from dying. So clearly more guns is the solution not less.

There are quite a few baseless nasty accusations flying around here. Can someone please show me where I stated something as fact that is not? As usual, the dogpile tactics are in full effect.

Nomad wrote:

There are quite a few baseless nasty accusations flying around here. Can someone please show me where I stated something as fact that is not? As usual, the dogpile tactics are in full effect.

You posted a link to a report that had been discredited. Posting a news link and then basing your posts on that link means you think it is fact unless stated otherwise. Instead of just admitting the report was in error you double downed (as usual) and then cry about being dog piled (as usual).

We all make mistakes that is not a big deal but just admit it is wrong and try to find/post a better source instead of just ignoring a large amount of other links/posters and crying persecution.

It’s f*cking fake news created by alt-right shitstains so that gullible readers will post it around the net to make it seem more reliable. This is exactly the issue the Twitter and Facebook are facing, as they let Russian troll farms use their networks to distribute their made up crap.

So, yeah, thanks for bringing that to GWJ. The ugly part is why anyone would roll with such unfounded rubbish that even Fox News called bullshit.

Jayhawker wrote:

It’s f*cking fake news created by alt-right shitstains so that gullible readers will post it around the net to make it seem more reliable. This is exactly the issue the Twitter and Facebook are facing, as they let Russian troll farms use their networks to distribute their made up crap.

So, yeah, thanks for bringing that to GWJ. The ugly part is why anyone would roll with such unfounded rubbish that even Fox News called bullshit.

You are the one who introduced the alt-right nonsense. It’s right on this page. Don’t smear me with that garbage. The only reason I even posted the NYP link was that someone asked if any news outlets had discussed motive.

This is getting more personal than I think any of us want. So perhaps a breather for everyone?

No, the question was where you got this info. You apparently had to fine a reliable news source when called on it later. And you failed to even do that.

So, where did you run across this fake information that you wanted to use as a launching point for a discussion? Because, yeah, I think it was created by a Russian troll farm or an alt-right shit disturber.

Salon: Far right concocts fake news about Texas church shooter

To most people, this past Saturday was just a regular weekend off from work. In far-right circles, however, Nov. 4 was supposed to be the beginning of a civil war.

While the predicted revolution never happened, a number of right-wing internet users have fabricated evidence to make it seem as though the mass shooting that took place in a Texas small-town church the following day was somehow related to their conspiracy theory about a violent left-wing uprising.

Even before law enforcement officials identified the suspected gunman in the Sutherland Springs shooting as Devin Patrick Kelley, far-right social media users were actively spreading misinformation that he was part of the anti-fascist or "antifa" movement, a loose coalition of radicals and anarchists that many on the American right believe to be a massive terrorist group bent on overthrowing the government.

For the past several weeks, conspiracy king Alex Jones and others hyped a series of local protest marches against President Donald Trump organized by a non-antifa leftist group called Refuse Fascism , claiming that instead of being just another bunch of demonstrations, Nov. 4 was to be the day that "antifa launches communist revolution in United States," as Jones' site InfoWars proclaimed.

Many members of the racist "alt-right" movement and their slightly less extreme "alt-lite" counterparts ceaselessly hyped the marches. Lucian Wintrich, a self-described reporter for the notoriously disreputable site Gateway Pundit, wrote an alarmist blog post citing a parody Twitter account which claimed that on Nov. 4, "millions of antifa supersoldiers will behead all white parents and small business owners."

Once Kelley began his rampage, the far-right went into a frenzy of action, desperately trying to blame anyone on the political left for the incident, despite having no evidence from law enforcement officials.

"Mass shooting at The First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, which has a largely white denomination," alt-lite conspiracy theorist Mike Cernovich tweeted. "Antifa terrorist attack?"

Cernovich, who is a favorite inside the Trump White House, kept pushing the angle throughout the day. In one tweet, he claimed that the black body armor Kelley wore during his shooting spree was somehow proof that he was part of the antifa movement.

"Photos of Texas shooter is consistent with profile of Antifa member," Cernovich wrote. "This is looking more and more like Antifa terror."

Others on the far right began fabricating screenshots to make it look as though Kelley supported antifa. The fake news website YourNewsWire began spreading a false Facebook profile of Kelley which supposedly featured him flying a flag with an antifa logo on it. Still others posted comments on antifa social media pages with fake accounts, claiming to endorse killing Christians and then spread screenshots of those posts as proof that antifa activists support mass murder.

Jack Posobiec, a friend of Cernovich and a conspiracy-monger in his own right, began posting the fake images on his Twitter account, where his gullible fans ate it up.

Far-right activists posing as antifa and advocating extreme violence has become a frequent tactic in alt-right efforts to radicalize ordinary white conservatives.

Jayhawker wrote:

No, the question was where you got this info. You apparently had to fine a reliable news source when called on it later. And you failed to even do that.

So, where did you run across this fake information that you wanted to use as a launching point for a discussion? Because, yeah, I think it was created by a Russian troll farm or an alt-right shit disturber.

I assume you mean this question:

2. If the screenshots of his FB page turn out to be authentic, will his history of hatred toward Christians and Antifa ties qualify this event as a hate crime or terrorism or both? (Anyone know why they take down FB pages so quickly after events like these? Is it a criminal investigation thing?)

It was a question, not a statement. I saw the alleged FB screen captures when I image searched google for his Facebook account. I specifically questioned their accuracy in my post.

Nomad wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

It’s f*cking fake news created by alt-right shitstains so that gullible readers will post it around the net to make it seem more reliable. This is exactly the issue the Twitter and Facebook are facing, as they let Russian troll farms use their networks to distribute their made up crap.

So, yeah, thanks for bringing that to GWJ. The ugly part is why anyone would roll with such unfounded rubbish that even Fox News called bullshit.

You are the one who introduced the alt-right nonsense. It’s right on this page. Don’t smear me with that garbage. The only reason I even posted the NYP link was that someone asked if any news outlets had discussed motive.

Nomad wrote:

2. If the screenshots of his FB page turn out to be authentic, will his history of hatred toward Christians and Antifa ties qualify this event as a hate crime or terrorism or both?

You introduced alt-right nonsense. It's right on the last page. Jayhawker responded with explicitly identified sources of your content being alt-right nonsense, to counteract the damage of you spreading alt-right propaganda.

Nomad wrote:

It was a question, not a statement. I saw the alleged FB screen captures when I image searched google for his Facebook account. I specifically questioned their accuracy in my post.

Why didn't you say that 12 hours ago when you were repeatedly asked how you found that information?

Mod: Certis already called for this discussion to return to scope. Occasional short diversions from scope are okay, but if you want to extensively discuss provenance of information about this particular story, or this particular story in general, please start a new thread.

Thread Scope wrote:

The scope of this discussion is strictly options or suggestions on HOW to create policy and law and how to implement them in the US so as to reduce the number of guns in the hands of those who intend to use them for criminal purposes.

Posting just in time to see a mod intervention. Nuking.

This is infuriating. To think that this “alt-right” / Russian PsyOps is what we’re going to have to deal with for the rest of our lives. That there aren’t even common facts from which to have a good faith discussion.