[Discussion] NeoGAF is gone

NeoGAF is down, gone forever?

GAF may be back online, but the changes and many of the posts in the two boards that are up make me think that what made it worthwhile has fallen.

Zona wrote:

GAF may be back online, but the changes and many of the posts in the two boards that are up make me think that what made it worthwhile has fallen.

Exactly. I think a lot of the ”good” people, including many great moderators, are gone and a forum is no more or less than the participants: especially the moderators.

Spent longer on Neogaf just now than previous times combined out of morbid curiosity. Wooow. Funny what counts as left leaning in the current climate. Not being a total arsehole to other people and things they care about makes you left, who knew?

It does sound like a pretty good start.
But really, not being arseholes to others seems more important than being leftish when it comes to managing an Internet forum.
Unless banning people counts as being arseholes, then it’s more a requirement

Time to nuke my account in protest. His statement on Gaf was ok, but is way too late and doesn't change his sh*tty statements elsewhere.

garion333 wrote:

Time to nuke my account in protest. His statement on Gaf was ok, but is way too late and doesn't change his sh*tty statements elsewhere.

Any idea on how to actually do that? I can't seem to find any information on cancelling/deleting your account. I suspect you have to message the admins?

I'd guess flagrantly breaking rules (or just posting non-flatteringly about their wonderful overlord) would get the job done.

There's a 50 page thread that's getting heavy use for that. Also, folks on the other side proclaiming victory over the SJWs who had taken over the Gaf.

There is much that can be said about the part social media plays in this, for better and worse, and its perceived importance as the premier platform for everything in life. Instead of contacting the police, rather than seeking legal support, it should be put out for the world to form opinions on. For social media to then pass judgement on in place of a jury, or a judge.

Even a delayed response on social platforms is chalked up as a negative. As if seeking real world advice on serious accusations should await tweeting, recording a podcast, shooting a video log, and sharing to facebook.

I'm not sure this is the hill to be perceives as dying upon, though.

Guilty until proven innocent has seemingly taken hold in recent times. In tandem with growing social impact that is going to lead somewhere very bad, if it hasn't already.

I just hope a truth can be found within all of this and the victim can move on.

The fall of an influential community has taken a back seat. Rightfully so. It may be worth coming back to once the sexual harassment case is resolved.

garion333 wrote:

Time to nuke my account in protest. His statement on Gaf was ok, but is way too late and doesn't change his sh*tty statements elsewhere.

I don't even think his statement was OK, it's horrifyingly bad at best.

...the story doesn't reconcile logically with the facts, and there's plenty of evidence and witnesses to corroborate that.

Ummm, how many witnesses were there in a hotel room with the two of you?

RnRClown wrote:

There is much that can be said about the part social media plays in this, for better and worse, and its perceived importance as the premier platform for everything in life. Instead of contacting the police, rather than seeking legal support, it should be put out for the world to form opinions on. For social media to then pass judgement on in place of a jury, or a judge.

As a reminder, this was originally put out there as a private #MeToo story. Not published to tarnish or attack him directly.

Secondary note: Why didn't a rape victim just go to the police? Really? :\ Having read the initial accusation, I'm not even sure there was anything actionable there... but given we have an admitted sexual assaulter in the White House now, and years of evidence of "well she was asking for it"... saying, suck it up and deal with that sh*t storm rather than processing it with friends online is insensitive at best.

RnRClown wrote:

Even a delayed response on social platforms is chalked up as a negative. As if seeking real world advice on serious accusations should await tweeting, recording a podcast, shooting a video log, and sharing to facebook.

This would work better if he hadn't been running his mouth in about 2 dozen different outlets before he released his statement.

RnRClown wrote:

Guilty until proven innocent has seemingly taken hold in recent times.

Yeah, rape victims are plenty aware of this, it's basically standard defense lawyer tactic against rape/sexual assault charges 101 right now.

Oh you meant for him. Right.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of say on how social media plays a part in our perceptions of guilt... but some of those lines being used in a potential retelling of sexual misconduct gets riiiiiight into victim's fault territory.

RnRClown wrote:

There is much that can be said about the part social media plays in this, for better and worse, and its perceived importance as the premier platform for everything in life.

I do not regularly wander into D&D territory, and perhaps now is not the best time, but I wanted to mention that I have had the same concerns that RnR mentions here. I will express this caveat though: I read RnR's post as an overall observation rather than as a specific defense of this GAF dude (who by all appearances is a douche and quite possibly a rapist).

My concern is how in the age of social media things can escalate so quickly with otherwise thoughtful, considerate people being caught up in a tidal swell.

Even a delayed response on social platforms is chalked up as a negative. As if seeking real world advice on serious accusations should await tweeting, recording a podcast, shooting a video log, and sharing to facebook.

This is a very good point. On the one hand, we are quick to criticize those who speak about situations before all of the information is available, while on the other any delay is seen as a sign of nefarious activity. Again, I am speaking of the overall culture of our times, not this specific incident. It seems that there are those in our "outrage culture" that don't feel quite right if they are not pissed off about something, so when an opportunity arises, they are quick to pile on, facts be damned. I will freely admit that I have been guilty of this very thing far more times than I would like to admit. I am also not talking about anyone in this thread (or on this site) as I don't know enough about anyone here to even pretend to make that kind of judgement.

Guilty until proven innocent has seemingly taken hold in recent times. In tandem with growing social impact that is going to lead somewhere very bad, if it hasn't already.

Yeah, this is a concern that I share. While there are times that the internet, social media, and our increasingly interconnected world can be a really Good Thing, there are also so many times where the insta-group dynamics are a harmful by product. I realize that we are still in the infancy of this particular technology and how it can shape conversations, and there will be more growing pains. I just felt moved to comment.

Here's my problem in general:

Malka sounds like an unmitigated asshole, which makes him seem exactly like the sort of person who would jump in the shower with someone without asking.

a deeply disturbed, malicious individual
It's been a perfect storm of misanthropy and opportunism,
totally ridiculous and baseless
totally harmonious and consensual

I totally don't believe a word he is saying. Perhaps if he had been taking time to ask for advice his response would be more like "I thought she was ok with it, I guess I read the signals wrong." Instead, he's turning her into the boogeylady, which tells me he likely didn't ask for advice anywhere.

Any other discussion about social media, overreaction, etc., isn't really within the scope of this thread. You guys are more than welcome to start a new thread in order to discuss the more general take on our current cultural climate, but by doing so here it does tend to downplay what took place.

garion333 wrote:

Here's my problem in general:

Malka sounds like an unmitigated asshole, which makes him seem exactly like the sort of person who would jump in the shower with someone without asking.

a deeply disturbed, malicious individual
It's been a perfect storm of misanthropy and opportunism,
totally ridiculous and baseless
totally harmonious and consensual

I totally don't believe a word he is saying. Perhaps if he had been taking time to ask for advice his response would be more like "I thought she was ok with it, I guess I read the signals wrong." Instead, he's turning her into the boogeylady, which tells me he likely didn't ask for advice anywhere.

Any other discussion about social media, overreaction, etc., isn't really within the scope of this thread. You guys are more than welcome to start a new thread in order to discuss the more general take on our current cultural climate, but by doing so here it does tend to downplay what took place.

One cannot take Malka’s response out of context. He has a self-avowed history of “dominance,” which reads like classic sexually aggressive and assaultive behavior.

Again, Waypoint Radio has a lovely discussion on this very issue.

Just had my account banned. Logging out isn’t enough. The ban cements that I’m no longer associated with the site.

It’s in the process of becoming gatorized right now. Glad to be gone.

Guilty until proven innocent has seemingly taken hold in recent times. In tandem with growing social impact that is going to lead somewhere very bad, if it hasn't already.

I don't disagree with your post, Abu, but would also point out that what we're seeing is the pendulum swinging the other way from the long-held status quo of "innocent even after being proved guilty", when it comes to harassment and sexual assault.

I'm not in the least bit surprised to see that that pendulum has a lot of stored energy to swing wide in the other direction. It might lead to something very bad, but the point is that the status quo we're diverging from was already something very bad.

garion333 wrote:

Any other discussion about social media, overreaction, etc., isn't really within the scope of this thread. You guys are more than welcome to start a new thread in order to discuss the more general take on our current cultural climate, but by doing so here it does tend to downplay what took place.

That's a very fair point, thanks. I certainly did not intend to downplay anything and completely agree that this guy is an asshole.

Jonman wrote:
Guilty until proven innocent has seemingly taken hold in recent times. In tandem with growing social impact that is going to lead somewhere very bad, if it hasn't already.

I don't disagree with your post, Abu, but would also point out that what we're seeing is the pendulum swinging the other way from the long-held status quo of "innocent even after being proved guilty", when it comes to harassment and sexual assault.

I'm not in the least bit surprised to see that that pendulum has a lot of stored energy to swing wide in the other direction. It might lead to something very bad, but the point is that the status quo we're diverging from was already something very bad.

I agree, but wanted to point out that your quote is actually RnRClown, not I.

This seem to be one of those 'its not the crime its the cover up', well, except it is maybe not so much a cover up, as its brutally attacking the victim and blaming her, which he has some power to do, given his 'internet celebrity' status. As the woman said, one reason she didn't want to talk talk about it initially, was exactly because of the the perceived power he had.
Not to neglect the actual sexual assault, but a major part of the problem is usually the unequal power between the perpetrator and the victim that allows the assaults to stay hidden.

So yeah, NeoGaf guy might be innocent until proven guilty. Hardly gives him the right to attack the woman as he did now - it is understandable if some of the NeoGaf mods stepped down after reading the explanation he gave them. Which seem to be what escalated the forum situation.

Jonman wrote:
Guilty until proven innocent has seemingly taken hold in recent times. In tandem with growing social impact that is going to lead somewhere very bad, if it hasn't already.

I don't disagree with your post, Abu, but would also point out that what we're seeing is the pendulum swinging the other way from the long-held status quo of "innocent even after being proved guilty", when it comes to harassment and sexual assault.

I'm not in the least bit surprised to see that that pendulum has a lot of stored energy to swing wide in the other direction. It might lead to something very bad, but the point is that the status quo we're diverging from was already something very bad.

It's totally normal for murders to kill 20, 30, or 50 people before the public begins to believe that they might have--just maybe--killed one person.

OG_slinger wrote:

It's totally normal for murders to kill 20, 30, or 50 people before the public begins to believe that they might have--just maybe--killed one person.

You do realize that if law enforcement/the public actually believed women when they made an accusation of rape/sexual assault/harassment against a male (let alone a male in a position of power like Cosby or Weinstein) and put forth real effort into investigating things, we wouldn't be in this backlash right now?

Also, the number of false rape/assault/harassment accusations is so vanishingly small that they effectively do not exist as compared to the volume of actual rape/assault/harassment cases.

Shadout wrote:

This seem to be one of those 'its not the crime its the cover up', well, except it is maybe not so much a cover up, as its brutally attacking the victim and blaming her, which he has some power to do, given his 'internet celebrity' status. As the women said, one reason she didn't want to talk talk about it initially, was exactly because of the the perceived power he had.
Not to neglect the actual sexual assault, but a major part of the problem is usually the unequal power between the perpetrator and the victim that allows the assaults to stay hidden.

So yeah, NeoGaf guy might be innocent until proven guilty. Hardly gives him the right to attack the woman as he did now - it is understandable if some of the NeoGaf mods stepped down after reading the explanation he gave them. Which seem to be what escalated the forum situation.

I hesitate to jump into this as I'm still fairly new and this may be into tangent territory:

Honest question: How are you supposed to defend yourself from accusations of this manner? He was lambasted for not releasing a statement soon enough, and when he did so he was lambasted again for "attacking" his accuser. Hypothetically speaking, if he is NOT guilty of what he is accused of, how does he defend himself?

Didn't we once have an FAQ about rape culture?

wordsmythe wrote:

Didn't we once have an FAQ about rape culture?

There's this thread from the old days that covers a LOT of ground, worth reading if you're new to the concept. First post has a good summery of it as well.

He was lambasted for not releasing a statement soon enough, and when he did so he was lambasted again for "attacking" his accuser.

Worth noting, those aren't opposite ends on a spectrum. He could have released a statement saying that that was not how the situation went down without going deeply personal in his attacks on her.

As noted, she didn't release this publicly, her initial statements were pretty private, it was others who made them public. But he seems to be taking any challenge to his story as deeply personal and goes after her as such.

His accuser even noted they were both drunk. She didn't even accuse him of assault.

But he suddenly has witnesses and evidence of an event where only he and his accuser were and then presents zero evidence because, believe me... tax returns? Who needs them? Trust me, this tax plan is totally bad for me, I have proof.

If THIS is what it took days to craft, I have to wonder what the earlier drafts looked like.

mudbunny wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

It's totally normal for murders to kill 20, 30, or 50 people before the public begins to believe that they might have--just maybe--killed one person.

You do realize that if law enforcement/the public actually believed women when they made an accusation of rape/sexual assault/harassment against a male (let alone a male in a position of power like Cosby or Weinstein) and put forth real effort into investigating things, we wouldn't be in this backlash right now?

Also, the number of false rape/assault/harassment accusations is so vanishingly small that they effectively do not exist as compared to the volume of actual rape/assault/harassment cases.

Yes, I realize that, mudbunny.

It's why I made that comment: to point out the ludicrously high bar that society has for accusations of sexual harassment or assault and how insane it would be if we treated other crimes the same.

OG_slinger wrote:
mudbunny wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

It's totally normal for murders to kill 20, 30, or 50 people before the public begins to believe that they might have--just maybe--killed one person.

You do realize that if law enforcement/the public actually believed women when they made an accusation of rape/sexual assault/harassment against a male (let alone a male in a position of power like Cosby or Weinstein) and put forth real effort into investigating things, we wouldn't be in this backlash right now?

Also, the number of false rape/assault/harassment accusations is so vanishingly small that they effectively do not exist as compared to the volume of actual rape/assault/harassment cases.

Yes, I realize that, mudbunny.

It's why I made that comment: to point out the ludicrously high bar that society has for accusations of sexual harassment or assault and how insane it would be if we treated other crimes the same.

Ahh, my apologies. I misread you as saying the exact opposite somehow.

mudbunny wrote:

Ahh, my apologies. I misread you as saying the exact opposite somehow.

No worries. I probably should have tacked on "/s."

saint2e wrote:

Honest question: How are you supposed to defend yourself from accusations of this manner? He was lambasted for not releasing a statement soon enough, and when he did so he was lambasted again for "attacking" his accuser. Hypothetically speaking, if he is NOT guilty of what he is accused of, how does he defend himself?

I agree that it can be difficult to defend yourself against charges, maybe even unfairly so. A lot of us always want to believe the supposed victim first.

But why not simply deny, call her a lier, tell us how he viewed their encounter and so on.
Trying to frame her as mentally ill only serves the purpose of denigrating her.
Even if she actually was mentally ill, that is such a nasty attack to pull.
If an accusation goes to court, leave the 'mentally ill' argument for the lawyers. If you use it yourself you just seem petty in my opinion.

I think the key notes to hit in a public response when you've been accused of abusive behavior are that you don't remember it that way and that you do in fact think that abuse is wrong and you value others' rights not to be abused.

He's a self-confessed misogynist, guilty of at least one previous incident (that I know of from skimming the details that have come out), so no, it's not strange at all that people would assume he is guilty of this.