2017/18 Soccer Thread

I had a funny feeling Newcastle would win today, we were supposedly in crisis, yet we did look fairly solid defensively in the first two games, whereas West Ham really have been shambolic this season. With all the money they throw about, it's crazy that they still play Mark Noble.

Joselu played very well, which I'm very glad about considering a number of our "fans" seemed to have written him off before he had even kicked a ball (If you're anything under an 8 figure fee these days, I guess people think you're not that good?) He's exactly what we've been crying out for, a target man who actually has good hold up play. We have a bizarre section of fans who seem to cry out for Mitrovic every opportunity, despite the fact his target man play is, at many times, non-existent, so I'm hoping that sees the end of him. I know he scored today, which will probably add fuel to the fire for those people, but he also missed a simple one on one with the goal keeper and elbowed a player in the face for absolutely no reason.

I'm still hopeful we can get Jovetic in as well, but I'm guessing we probably need to sell some players first. Christian Atsu has been the biggest surprise for me this season, he messes up a bit in the final moments, but he's been great so far, especially considering he struggled to get regular playing time last season in the Championship.

I like Mitrovic a lot, he gets chances at goal and scores at a pretty good rate, but the stupid moments of violence make playing him such a risk. Joselu does seem like a nice upgrade on Gayle and I think we'll be fine at striker between him, Mitrovic, and Gayle as third-choice. Now if only a starting leftback could be found to bump Dummett down to 2nd-choice and have some depth in there. That was also the best game I've seen from Ayoze Perez in a while - I love him to bits but it's a shame he doesn't much in terms of end product because if he did he'd be dynamite.

Barcelona have taken 38 shot attempts in their first two games this season. Messi has 20 of them. That's bonkers. I agree with pretty much everything Godzilla Blitz said about the state of the club on the last page.

I hope Messi continues to hold out. I don't want to see him finish his career at a club that isn't even in the fight for the league, to say nothing of Champions League.

Maybe someone should inform Mike Dean that he's supposed to be a Premiership referee, not the lead character in 'You Are The Star'. A performance of such staggering incompetence that even Alan Shearer could make a valid point - why single out Sterling for a booking when there were 6 or 7 other City players there after his last minute goal ?

And let's not forget Ake fouling Jesus when clear through, or Cook's two footed challenge. "A 1950's challenge" according to the commentator. Both feet off the ground, it's a foul whether he gets the ball or not, given that he then goes through Jesus.

Feels vaguely blasphemous to say this, but would anyone be surprised if Wenger is the first manager through the moon door this season ?

I don't rate this Liverpool side.

Wenger has actually just lost his mind completely + the locker room.

Not sure how you line up with 3 at the back which plays exactly into how Liverpool play. Welbeck and Holding?

If we flip managers this game would of been 10-0 Arsenal.

What a drubbing! Arsenal = 0 shots on target.

And right before the transfer window closes no less. Can't imagine Sanchez sticks around after that.

When was the last time an Arsenal side was greater than the sum of the individual player talent. I don't think they have been in my time following club football (since 2005/06).

Wenger looks to me like a case of a guy who was ahead of his time in many areas when he got the Premier League (fitness and nutrition, international recruitment) but hasn't been able to adapt all that well once other clubs caught up to him. He also wasn't able (or willing) to keep up with the spending of rivals once Chelsea and Manchester City became powered by oligarchs or petrodollars. A few years ago I saw a piece or chart that showed spending of the top teams in the EPL - Arsenal were up at the top with Manchester United until Chelsea arrived, at which Man Utd increased spending to keep up and Arsenal stood still.

Good Twitter thread on the state of Arsenal's administration:
https://twitter.com/mixedknuts/statu...

"Chelsea and Manchester City powered by oligarchs or petrodollars."

That would as opposed to being powered by selling overpriced hipster apartments and being owned by one of the richest men in America (although he does display Trump-like levels of class and sensitivity - this was the clown whose cable TV channel was going to show live animal hunts.) and an East European oligarch, then.

Arsenal still have one of the top 4 wage bills in the Premiership, so let's take that into consideration when we talk about them not spending what other teams spend. The faults with Arsenal are the same as the last few years - an unbalanced squad, with no strong leaders but a plethora of self-seeking individuals (and yes, I am definitely including Sanchez in that category - I'm certainly not in the category of City fans who think that we'll be odds on for the league with him on board).

"Wenger looks to me like a case of a guy who was ahead of his time in many areas when he got the Premier League (fitness and nutrition, international recruitment) but hasn't been able to adapt all that well once other clubs caught up to him." I think that's spot on, and most managers and players would agree that fitness and preparation around the league is light years from where it was 20 years ago (catch one of Sky's season review programs of the 90's to see exactly what the difference is...).

Unfortunately, at the moment the manager Arsene Wenger reminds me most of is Brian Clough. Well ahead of his time, but then tailed off dramatically, won nothing of note for years and almost had to be dragged off the stage with a shepherd's crook. Don't go that way, Arsene - you should have walked away with dignity after the Cup Final, and maybe stepped up into the club hierarchy. If you go now, you are leaving your successor with this squad until January at the least - and players will see out their deals and go.

Mustafi has apparently agreed terms with Inter. I've seen some Arsenal fans suggest that he had a less than stellar end to last season, but why he is being considered for a sale and not in the team over the likes of Holding and Monreal (who I don't blame considering he is a left back playing at centre-back) is beyond bizarre. Arsenal got routed today, all over; with that it's hard to see Wenger ending the season.

Clusks wrote:

Mustafi has apparently agreed terms with Inter. I've seen some Arsenal fans suggest that he had a less than stellar end to last season, but why he is being considered for a sale and not in the team over the likes of Holding and Monreal (who I don't blame considering he is a left back playing at centre-back) is beyond bizarre. Arsenal got routed today, all over; with that it's hard to see Wenger ending the season.

He also subbed Ox + Sanchez at the same time which the commentators immediately wondered if that's it for them.

It's actually somewhat crazy.

Wenger helped the club transition from a club with a great domestic history to one that might be able to financially go toe to toe with the rest of the continental super powers.

Fast forward to today and they are at best a CL bubble team with Spurs soon to catch them on the financial side of things.

For all he did he then stuck around too long and over involved himself with to many aspects of the club. Liverpool have a sleeve sponsor with Western Union for 5m a year which seems on the cheap side considering how prevalent it was while watching the game. Arsenal have been extremely slow compared to a teams like Chelsea/United/Liverpool when it comes to commercial sponsorship that it's pretty much nullified the advantage of moving to the new stadium.

I honestly can't care until he's gone. Kronke can go also but I think that's even less unlikely. Which also makes you wonder how useless he is. You would figure he would at least make the revenue side of the equation more efficient but I'm 90% sure he's fine just owning the team and watching the value appreciate because the league as a whole does. He's an absentee owner whos also sh*t at running a business.

Wow. Asensio is a sniper. Every time I see him he impresses me more.

Kroenke is...

...like, I'd like to sit here and say something positive, but NFL owners, by and large, don't seem give a sh*t about anything other than whether or not their investment makes them richer, and Kroenke is kind of emblematic of that. I doubt Kroenke even knows Arsenal got trashed.

davet010 wrote:

Unfortunately, at the moment the manager Arsene Wenger reminds me most of is Brian Clough. Well ahead of his time, but then tailed off dramatically, won nothing of note for years and almost had to be dragged off the stage with a shepherd's crook. Don't go that way, Arsene - you should have walked away with dignity after the Cup Final, and maybe stepped up into the club hierarchy. If you go now, you are leaving your successor with this squad until January at the least - and players will see out their deals and go.

Dead-on. "Arsenal in Crisis!" makes its annual appearance in August this season. I caught this watching Match of the Day online. Arsenal, vs. last year's Top 6 (Chelsea, Tottenham, Manchester City, Liverpool, Manchester United) since 2013/14:

Played - 21
Won - 2
Drawn - 6
Lost - 13
Scored - 24
Condeded - 52

o_O

Meanwhile, my love of Jurgen Klopp is making me consider being, at least neutral towards Liverpool (I'm not entirely sure HOW I ended up not particularly liking them, but I don't).

Also, down in the Championship, Fulham got a desperately-needed win. We're 1-3-1 now, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this is one of those seasons where, after missing out on promotion last year, we end up finishing 10th or something and there's murmurs of firing the manager.

Then again, there's literally another 41 games and 123 points to play for, so being 6 points off promotion doesn't seem so bad.

Lastly, hello again soccer thread! I've missed you!

Prederick wrote:

Arsenal, vs. last year's Top 6 (Chelsea, Tottenham, Manchester City, Liverpool, Manchester United) since 2013/14:

Played - 21
Won - 2
Drawn - 6
Lost - 13
Scored - 24
Condeded - 52

o_O

This would get a normal manager sacked. But add Wengers tenure to a situation where the owner doesn't give a f*ck as long as things are somewhat 'stable' and hes pretty much bullet proof. I'm honestly kinda shocked that attendance hasn't slipped to the point where ticket prices are suffering. I'm pretty sure prices have stagnated in response of them being called out for being relatively expensive compared to the rest of the league but I'm surprised people have flat out stopped going,

I can't be bothered to watch sometimes. I can't imagine living in London and actually taking the time to commute to the stadium and fork over a chunk of cash to actually watch them. One theory is maybe the travelling tourist fans are propping up attendance. Last time I was in London was the Monaco CL tie and I had the option to go. I didn't and caught that disaster at a pub instead. It was on purpose also because I felt like I was just feeding into that economy.

Giroud looks to be this year's Juan Mata - a player we might have been able to sign, who definitely would have improved the team, but had a good enough start to the season that our chances of landing him are essentially zero (unless the thrashing by Liverpool convinces him the Emirates is a sinking ship).

We still need to do a lot of business this week - even more if the reports of Mirallas leaving are true. I think we need a left-sided central defender, ideally cover for Baines, and a center forward. I know Koeman is looking for a target man to hold up play and allow us to get forward, but I still kind of wish we'd taken Chicharito for 15m - in today's market, that's a good price for a rotation option.

Costa would still be a no from me - he'll definitely net some goals, but he's dressing-room poison. (Plus, the most-recent rumor I've heard is a six-month loan, which would be basically us paying to get him back to match fitness just in time for him to move to Atletico).

Expect a bunch of outbounds as well, though Niasse is the only one I've heard anything on (potentially to Brighton for 8m, which would be a loss of over 5m on a player who barely spent more time on the pitch at Goodison than I have). Plus he's on a £55,000 weekly wage - I promise to be just as ineffective for half as much.

Left sided central defender, you say ? Might I interest sir in this low mileage Eliquim Mangala ?

This model comes with two (2) legs, PL registration and work permits, and all the European exposure that you will be needing in your Thursday night campaigns.

This bargain can be yours for the low, low price of just £15m, or we'll take that Ross Barkley off you in part-exchange.

Don't delay, buy today ! Pop down to the City dealership and grab yourself a bargain !

Please note - this offer is not available to trade dealers....that's you, Redknapp H, Bruce S, Warnock N, etc.

Alternatively, we'll send him to Celtic, I'm sure he'd fancy a Player of the Season award. Hell, Jason Denayer walked away with the Young Player award up there two seasons again, and look how well he played for Sunderland last year. Here's a clue - they went down.

Transfer season bananas.

So Chamberlain is gone to Chelsea for 40m but hes not because he wants to play CM not wing/wing back. So now instead to Liverpool?

Mbappe is going on loan and next year PSG will officially sign him to skirt FFP rules.

Sanchez to City 50m rejected because we want Stirling (Walcott 2.0) in return? can we send Walcott somewhere also.

In more Arsenal blundering a 5m deal for Gibbs falls apart with Watford and now maybe hes off to WBA. Only Arsenal in the same year an English 27 year old RB goes for 45m they cant even move on a English 27 year old LB. I'm not trying to make an argument that Gibbs is good.. just that Walker is equally average. But things are so upside down Walker is 9x as expensive as Gibbs. Thats a testament on how inept Arsenal is in the market.

Transfer season genuinely is a bunch of people with 10x as much money as sense negotiating deals.

jowner wrote:

Transfer season bananas.

Sanchez to City 50m rejected because we want Stirling (Walcott 2.0) in return? can we send Walcott somewhere also.

I thought that Sanchez for Sterling + cash rumour was bananas. Sanchez turns 29 this year, runs like mad, and has basically played football for club and country for 5 straight years without a June/July break. There are a lot of minutes on those legs and I'd be worried he'll fall off a cliff soon or end up visiting Fernando Torres Island. Granted, Torres' sudden decline was more down to recurrent injuries than playing too much.

What I don't get is why Man City are chasing another attacking midfielder when they could do with another guy in central midfield. Gundogan has injury question marks, Toure shouldn't be anything more than a backup/soft opposition player, Fernandinho's great but 32, and Delph is Delph. They could really do with a starter there unless Pep's going all-out-attack with something like De Bruyne and/or David Silva in central midfield.

In more Arsenal blundering a 5m deal for Gibbs falls apart with Watford and now maybe hes off to WBA. Only Arsenal in the same year an English 27 year old RB goes for 45m they cant even move on a English 27 year old LB. I'm not trying to make an argument that Gibbs is good.. just that Walker is equally average. But things are so upside down Walker is 9x as expensive as Gibbs. Thats a testament on how inept Arsenal is in the market.

Gibbs being unable to get into an inferior side over the last two years probably has a lot to do with it plus he only has a year left on his contract while I believe Walker had considerably more than that. With Walker you know you're getting a very good, starting calibre right back for a Champions League level side. With Gibbs I'm not even sure what he was when he was healthy and playing regularly, but I don't think he was that.

Well, that was an interesting deadline day.

City didn't get Alexis...not too arsed, I'd rather sign a centre half anyway (but not Jonny Evans, who isn't worth £30m even in this market.) Got Bony out the door (and money too !), Denayer went off to Turkey for another year. Also sold Jadon Sancho to Dortmund...touted as a wonderkid, but there's plenty of question marks around him (although not in his mind, as he DEMANDED a slot on the first team preseason tour and some starts). He then wouldn't turn up for training or sign a new deal, so City told him they'd only sell him to a European team. £10m isn't bad money for someone who's that raw, and the absence of anyone defending his attitude probably means its for the best. City also nearly managed to sell Mangala, but Palace were only using that to try and lever Liverpool into selling Sakho to them, and as usual Italian clubs don't deal in cash.

Spurs had a bit of an odd one. Llorente doesn't really fit their style, as he's about as mobile as a telegraph pole, and Aurier is just a rather revolting human being. Also, why sign a RB when Trippier is apparently the second coming of Philip Lahm and they've got some young lad who's as good.

Liverpool - £40m for Oxo looks like the kid who's found money and is determined to blow it.

Chelsea - £12m for some OK Italian defender and £35m for Drinkwater. I presume they are going to play him and Kante in a DM 2 ?

Arsenal - got in £40m and then lost it again, as Alexis and probably Ozil's transfer values have now slumped. Oh, and £90m for Thomas Lamar ? I can't believe that was ever serious, as City paid less than half that for Bernardo Silva, who is just as good.

International break time, so let's see what happens next !

As a fan, it will be nice when Arsenal isn't embarrassing. 2020 maybe?

bigred wrote:

As a fan, it will be nice when Arsenal isn't embarrassing. 2020 maybe?

How long and how much money did it take for Manchester United to recover from the malaise following Fergie going all-in in his last couple seasons and his departure?

For Arsenal I think it's going to be around that.

Roke wrote:
bigred wrote:

As a fan, it will be nice when Arsenal isn't embarrassing. 2020 maybe?

How long and how much money did it take for Manchester United to recover from the malaise following Fergie going all-in in his last couple seasons and his departure?

For Arsenal I think it's going to be around that.

Would we say they've recovered?

bigred wrote:
Roke wrote:
bigred wrote:

As a fan, it will be nice when Arsenal isn't embarrassing. 2020 maybe?

How long and how much money did it take for Manchester United to recover from the malaise following Fergie going all-in in his last couple seasons and his departure?

For Arsenal I think it's going to be around that.

Would we say they've recovered?

Good point.

I think they're there or nearly there in terms of squad talent now. I guess we'll see where they are at the end of the season (they're going to be at the top for a while with the soft start they have to their fixture list).

I mean, it could always get worse. And the problem might not simply be Wenger.

....but if Arsenal fans are dismayed at the way the club’s majority shareholder, Stan Kroenke, runs affairs at the Emirates, a glance at his US teams offers little hope things will improve.

The metaphor that best describes Kroenke’s sports franchises is that of a dumpster fire. But, in his case, a raging trash fire isn’t a metaphor. Two years ago, before Kroenke’s NFL Rams team took on the Pittsburgh Steelers, the turf in St Louis’ Edward Jones Dome actually caught fire, delaying kickoff by nearly 30 minutes.

Not surprisingly, the blaze was as exciting as it got for the Rams that day, as they went on to lose, 12-6, and four months later left the city of St Louis forever for Los Angeles. Kroenke’s exit from St Louis was arguably the lowest act by a team owner in a league with more than its share of men who give billionaires a bad name.

Kroenke oversaw a Rams team that went 36-59-1 in his six years as majority owner in St Louis, only to then claim that fan apathy over the horrible product he put on the field necessitated a move to Los Angeles. Yes, to the City of Los Angeles, of all places, America’s leader in NFL apathy. When Kroenke pulled out of St Louis – following years of insisting he had no desire to ever do so – he left local taxpayers on the hook for the millions of dollars remaining on a loan the city took out in 1995 to build the Rams a stadium. And while that bill is a fortune to most, it’s pocket change to a man reportedly worth $6bn, a man who bought a ranch in Texas for $725m ... and then proceeded to evict the tenants who lived on the ranch. Kroenke’s actions make him not just a villain by NFL standards, but in the bottom tier of soulless billionaires the world over. No small feat.

At least if Kroenke stopped at nothing to put winning products on the field, it might be easier for some fans to excuse the man up top. But Kroenke’s teams are somehow as athletically inept as he is stupendously wealthy.

Doesn't he also own the Colorado Avalanche, who's record in recent times has been appalling ?

Technically, I think his wife does, but he's listed as the Owner on the team website.

And yes, since the 2004-05 lockout, the Avalanche have made the playoffs 4 times, never advancing to the Conference Finals (the Stanley Cup Semi-Finals, for our UK friends). In that time frame, they've also finished dead last or next to dead last 4 times.

I'd like to say something nice, I would, but holy sh*t are a lot of American team owners awful.

Prederick wrote:

Technically, I think his wife does, but he's listed as the Owner on the team website.

And yes, since the 2004-05 lockout, the Avalanche have made the playoffs 4 times, never advancing to the Conference Finals (the Stanley Cup Semi-Finals, for our UK friends). In that time frame, they've also finished dead last or next to dead last 4 times.

I'd like to say something nice, I would, but holy sh*t are a lot of American team owners awful.

When you advertise sports to these guys as guaranteed investments (and set them up as in North America) you attract some very special owners.

Maybe the most ridiculous thing is they can manage the team into near oblivion and then just move the team to prop up the value.

Arsenals maybe best chance of getting rid of Kronke is missing the CL 2-3 more years and attendance dipping and commercial deals also. Then it will become clear that his investment can just automatically rise with tv deals but the team actually needs to be ran also. Then some bajillion aire coming in and paying over the price and still netting him a huge profit.

It might sound a tad silly but they are more likely to slip towards Newcastles fate then returning to being a top 4 contender let alone title contender.

Honestly if Ozil and Sanchez walk next year they are hard trending towards being a 7-10 team if anything.

jowner wrote:
Prederick wrote:

Technically, I think his wife does, but he's listed as the Owner on the team website.

And yes, since the 2004-05 lockout, the Avalanche have made the playoffs 4 times, never advancing to the Conference Finals (the Stanley Cup Semi-Finals, for our UK friends). In that time frame, they've also finished dead last or next to dead last 4 times.

I'd like to say something nice, I would, but holy sh*t are a lot of American team owners awful.

When you advertise sports to these guys as guaranteed investments (and set them up as in North America) you attract some very special owners.

Maybe the most ridiculous thing is they can manage the team into near oblivion and then just move the team to prop up the value.

Arsenals maybe best chance of getting rid of Kronke is missing the CL 2-3 more years and attendance dipping and commercial deals also. Then it will become clear that his investment can just automatically rise with tv deals but the team actually needs to be ran also. Then some bajillion aire coming in and paying over the price and still netting him a huge profit.

It might sound a tad silly but they are more likely to slip towards Newcastles fate then returning to being a top 4 contender let alone title contender.

Honestly if Ozil and Sanchez walk next year they are hard trending towards being a 7-10 team if anything.

It's Ashton Villa the Sequel! Randy Lerner, the Cleveland Browns owner, owned them as a playful investment. And look how well that turned out. Because of Ashton Villa's relegation, he ended up selling the club for slightly less than he bought it, as well as incurring significant financial losses while running the club. Americans have so little clue with relegation. Sports franchises only go up in value if you stay in the same league.

I am not for one minute advocating it, but if the PL spun off from the rest of the league in England and became a no relegation league, American potential owners would not be able to get here fast enough.

Imagine buying a team, even a not very good one, in a league that has a potential TV audience estimated at about 70% of the world's population. I can pretty much guarantee that more people worldwide will be aware of Stoke City than the Seattle Seahawks.

Oh, and Kroenke does sound like a complete c*ck - wasn't he the guy who wanted his cable TV channel to show live animal hunts? It's almost worth postulating the existence of Hell, so that trash like him could spend eternity burning in it.