Home Theater catch-all

So you'll take advantage of the service they spend so much extra to provide, but aren't willing to spend any more for that service?

Rent is expensive. The reason Amazon is cheaper is because they don't have to build a listening room. If you want Amazon prices, you should stick strictly to Amazon-level service. Buy it blind, and if you don't like it, send it back. If you want an audition, you should buy it locally.

It's not like the local vendor has infinite money, either.

I appreciate the basics of what you're saying and why you're saying it.

You'll just have to forgive me for not feeling bad about saving $40.

There was more here, but it doesn't matter. We don't agree and won't.

I would definitely check out the online sellers as well, several offer no hassle free returns within 30 or 45 days if you don't like em. I've been very happy with my svs satellites.

If you recall, I did follow that exact path. My Sub is an SVS. PB-1000, I think. Kind of bottom tier for them but still leagues better than anything you get from the usual speaker brands.

It's been absolutely great.

Ohh sorry I meant for Chaz. They are pricier than pioneer but no harm in trying!

Thin_J wrote:

I appreciate the basics of what you're saying and why you're saying it.

You'll just have to forgive me for not feeling bad about saving $40.

There was more here, but it doesn't matter. We don't agree and won't.

When I worked retail, we had a specific word for non-customers like this. It was not complimentary. I spent many hours helping people for free.

That store, shockingly, went out of business. Gosh, I wonder how that happened?

Malor wrote:

When I worked retail, we had a specific word for non-customers like this. It was not complimentary. I spent many hours helping people for free.

That store, shockingly, went out of business. Gosh, I wonder how that happened?

I bought my rear channels there and ordered my front towers and center on Amazon.

I bought things in the store. I was not a non customer. They did not help me for free.

But hey ignore details all you like.

To get back to the actual point of the thread, I think if I were shopping right now I'd lean heavily toward the ELAC Debut 5 series speakers. Link is to the center, all the related models are easy to find.

They sound amazing for the money. The BIC PL-89II towers and their associated matched speakers used to be the ones I kind of wanted but could never justify buying, but at this point they've been replaced by all the ELAC gear. Andrew Jones just knows speakers.

Any thoughts on those Dolby Atmos sound bars? Thinking about getting a new sound bar for the great room. Problem is, wife won't approve a system with tons of wires. I was thinking about Sonos Playbar + Sub, but for that price, I might as well get the Sony HT-ST5000 sound bar with Dolby Atmos.

Here is a picture of the room with vaulted ceilings, 10 feet high I believe. I already have a 75" Sony X940D mounted above the fireplace. Sound bar would either sit on the fire place mantel or mounted there. The thing is, most of my media is on Plex and Netflix. I only own a few 4K Blurays.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/eqSQSqj.jpg)

If you're shopping for a sound bar I'd ignore Atmos compatibility and just look for the best sound quality you can find within your budget.

Atmos is pretty pointless without all the extra speakers.

Are you putting the TV above the fireplace there?

If so, are you prone to neck pain?

T-Prime wrote:

Are you putting the TV above the fireplace there?

If so, are you prone to neck pain?

Actually, the TV has been mounted there since last September. I couldn't find a recent picture of the room. No neck pain! But my TV is 75" and is slightly slanted. I was actually planning on putting the TV on the right wall when we purchased the house because I did not want to be looking up while watching TV. But when I tried it there, the glare was so bad from all the windows. I'm thankful that neck pain has not been an issue at all.

Nice! Personally, every time I've been to a friend's house with a fireplace-mounted TV I've had trouble watching it for extended periods of time. I have resolved this issue by having fewer friends.

I always put the TV as high as possible so that when am sitting in my reclined media seating I don't have to bend my head forward. Right now, the TV is down on a stand and after a couple hours in front of it, the neck pain is very real ><

So. I've kinda wanted to get a projector for a long time but have never been able to convince the rest of the house that it was the right move. Everyone always had a little list of mini excuses about why we shouldn't do it and they all boiled down to "Aaaaah change bad".

Well life did the thing life tends to do and things changed and I now have the house back to myself. After an initial period of squaring away the Kitchen and getting some basic things that languished over the years out of the way I started in on several projects. I did prioritize a little and get all the materials and things I needed to redo a bathroom first, and picked up paint for one of the bedrooms, but after that I went for a quick couple day detour to something more immediately rewarding.

I got a pretty nice deal on an Epson 5040ub projector through a local guy, caught an SVS PC-2000 subwoofer for $100 off on one of their outlet sales, and ordered a 120 inch screen to go with the projector. I paired the PC-2000 with the PB-1000 I already had because the room is fairly huge and has 12 foot arched ceilings.

After two weeks, man, it's hard to go back to my 55 inch TV. I keep waiting for the novelty of the giant screen to wear off and it just... hasn't.

I've always loved the kind of core physical pieces of being in a movie theater but I've always hated crowds and the distracting noises and people walking in front of me in the middle of the movie and all the other things that go with that whole thing. So far cutting out the best parts of the theater experience and putting them in my own space and just jettisoning the stressy anxiety inducing sh*t that comes along with it is *so amazing*

I got it set up, calibrated, ran all my speaker wiring, got my couch situated, and the first thing I did after noodling around for best possible settings with my projector/screen combo and getting that all tweaked and done was watch the the 4k blu ray of Guardians of the Galaxy 2. It was a nearly religious experience. I cannot describe how great it was sprawling out on my own couch and watching a giant movie and feeling the sound rumble through my seat with my own refrigerator and bathroom both a ten second shuffle away. No crowds, no one opening a crunchy loud candy wrapper during quiet dialog, no one getting up and walking in front of me to go get a soda refill during the big action scene.... just nothing. Me, and the screen and the speakers and the experience of the movie and nothing else. And when I had half an urge to hit the restroom I just hit pause.

I only have one kinda bad half-blurry picture and it doesn't at all do it justice, but I'll throw it up anyway. Also, the rug in the room is ugly AF but it's also necessary for the sound to not be boomy and plagued by echos because the floor is ceramic tile, and the rug is gigantic (14x10....) and replacing it would cost more than I paid for all the materials required to redo one of my bathrooms. So the rug's just gonna clash and be ugly for a long while yet, I think.

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/eihThZw.jpg)

I already sat someone that never wanted to do it down and we watched Kong: Skull Island and they kinda just sighed and said yeah we should've done this years ago.

I may just not go to the theater anymore.

Yup, I'm right there with you Thin_J. Picked up a mid range Optoma unit during a Black Friday sale in 2015, haven't been to a theatre since...nor have I felt the need to upgrade a 6 year old Samsung 32 inch TV. Whats the point?

That sounds pretty nice. I don't have anything fancy but love using my projector in combination with a big portable speaker for outdoor movie nights.

Outdoor movie night here would just be people slapping at mosquitoes and swearing for two hours.

Thin_J wrote:

Outdoor movie night here would just be people slapping at mosquitoes and swearing for two hours.

Hah, I guess I'm lucky in the mosquito department. I live in the suburbs away from any sitting water.

How do you deal with the seemingly washed out look projectors always seem to have? I have yet to partake of one where it doesn't feel drab or too heavy on white. Is it just a personal failing of mine? (note: this is a perfectly acceptable answer)

Tyrian wrote:

How do you deal with the seemingly washed out look projectors always seem to have? I have yet to partake of one where it doesn't feel drab or too heavy on white. Is it just a personal failing of mine? (note: this is a perfectly acceptable answer)

I'm not sure how to decently answer this to be honest?

Drab or too heavy on white sounds to me like you've only seen badly calibrated projectors or projectors in less than ideal viewing conditions, but I clearly have no way of being sure that's the case.

Do you feel the same way when you go to the movie theater?

Thin_J wrote:
Tyrian wrote:

How do you deal with the seemingly washed out look projectors always seem to have? I have yet to partake of one where it doesn't feel drab or too heavy on white. Is it just a personal failing of mine? (note: this is a perfectly acceptable answer)

I'm not sure how to decently answer this to be honest?

Drab or too heavy on white sounds to me like you've only seen badly calibrated projectors or projectors in less than ideal viewing conditions, but I clearly have no way of being sure that's the case.

Do you feel the same way when you go to the movie theater?

Not usually.

But even when visiting a couple of the local AV mecca stores, I've yet to see a projector setup where the colors didn't feel washed out somewhat. You'd think they had things properly calibrated. Maybe the lighting has to be better... Ambient light from the rest of the store might be messing with it (since theaters are typically quite dark).

The more I think about it, I the more I think that is likely the culprit. I have an association between in-house projectors and washed out picture that's tough to shake. Seems like you need to invest a fair amount of time (and/or money) in getting more ideal conditions, and I am waaaaay too lazy for that (and stubborn enough to find fault in less than ideal solutions).

Light control is pretty critical, though you can counter that to some degree if you want to throw a lot of dollars at the screen material. Even then though, you can't truly maximize the performance of any projector without complete light control.

Screen Innovations and some others have some *incredible* screen options that do all kinds of crazy ambient light rejection and look absolutely amazing even in a fairly well lit room. The best example I've seen good video of is Screen Innovations' Black Diamond. As a quick example...

I looked into as many of those ALR screens as I could find info on but from what I can tell you can't get a decent one in the same 120 inch size I was shopping without actually spending almost ten times as much money on the screen.

On that same Screen Innovations youtube channel there's a video of that same guy showing his in-home setup which uses the exact same projector I bought, but on one of their Black Diamond screens. Total cost for the two things together in his setup according to him in the video is over $7000. My projector/screen combo was $2300 with another $180 or so tacked on for blackout shades.

In a light controlled dark room all that ALR screen tech tends to be wasted money. If I were going to spend any more money on the screen itself I would have gone for an acoustical weave screen that allows you to place the center channel speaker directly behind the screen just like a movie theater does, and bought an in-wall center channel to go with it. The equivalent to my screen with the acoustical weave material is $400.

So... blackout shades (or a basement setup, if you have one with the space) for the win.

Man, you really can go down the rabbit hole with AV gear (and accessory) expenditures, can't you? Friend of mine is definitely in that crowd. He has spent hundreds (or thousands) on "transparent cable" type stuff. That's way out of my budget (and always will be!). I can't hear the difference.

To be frank though, while It's not in the cards for me at the moment, perhaps I'll revist the age-old argument after we move to the beach. The hope is I'll have a nice long basement-style room to use for this kind of thing, and maybe it'll be more viable. As it stands, I'm pretty happy with the 65" 2016 Samsung LCD I picked up for $1000.

[edit]

I can see how the material does help eliminate that washed out effect, which is very cool.

I can't hear the difference.

That's because there is no difference. You can use lamp cord to hook up speakers, and nobody will be able to tell, unless it's a long run where the bass gets attenuated. With speakers, all you need is a cable that's thick enough for the run you're doing, and you're good. With RCA cables, you just need something reasonable; gold ends can reduce the cable's resistance a little bit, but you don't really *need* that. Nobody on the planet can tell the difference between $5 RCAs and $5K RCAs, assuming the rest of your gear is reasonably competent. (I've seen one example of people being able to tell the difference between cables, but that was because the decoder device was horribly broken and out of spec, so the two cables did sound slightly different. Naturally, the audiophiles convinced themselves the expensive cable was better, but the actual sound quality coming out of the system was objectively bad with both cables.)

In properly working systems, digital cables will either work or they won't. If they fail, they will generally do so in an extremely obvious way.

Mainstream audio products from quality manufacturers (Denon is my go-to) are incredibly good. You really don't need to spend a ton of money, and you don't need a ton of power. A 10-watt amplifier is only half as loud as a 100-watter, and you have to go to a thousand watts per channel to double the volume again. Spending way up on a big amplifier is a poor use of money, especially if you're going to be using a powered subwoofer, which will be pumping out about 90% of the total energy in the system.

Malor wrote:
I can't hear the difference.

That's because there is no difference. You can use lamp cord to hook up speakers, and nobody will be able to tell, unless it's a long run where the bass gets attenuated. With speakers, all you need is a cable that's thick enough for the run you're doing, and you're good. With RCA cables, you just need something reasonable; gold ends can reduce the cable's resistance a little bit, but you don't really *need* that. Nobody on the planet can tell the difference between $5 RCAs and $5K RCAs, assuming the rest of your gear is reasonably competent. (I've seen one example of people being able to tell the difference between cables, but that was because the decoder device was horribly broken and out of spec, so the two cables did sound slightly different. Naturally, the audiophiles convinced themselves the expensive cable was better, but the actual sound quality coming out of the system was objectively bad with both cables.)

In properly working systems, digital cables will either work or they won't. If they fail, they will generally do so in an extremely obvious way.

Mainstream audio products from quality manufacturers (Denon is my go-to) are incredibly good. You really don't need to spend a ton of money, and you don't need a ton of power. A 10-watt amplifier is only half as loud as a 100-watter, and you have to go to a thousand watts per channel to double the volume again. Spending way up on a big amplifier is a poor use of money, especially if you're going to be using a powered subwoofer, which will be pumping out about 90% of the total energy in the system.

I think avsforum did a test with wires made of aluminum foil that showed minimal difference, so yeah they're mostly a scam. A couple of nuances:

1. Make sure you use in-wall rated wire if installing in wall. It probably won't matter in terms of actual risk, but if there's a fire your insurance will sure care.

2. Digital cables are mostly all or nothing, but now that digital signals are more complex, there can be some shades of gray. For example an HDMI cable connected via ARC might have no problem carrying Dolby Digital +, but then fail to carry Dolby Atmos due to length or quality. Or more commonly, carry 4k 4:2:0 60fps, just fine, but not 4k 4:4:4 60fps for the same reasons.

Malor wrote:
I can't hear the difference.

That's because there is no difference. You can use lamp cord to hook up speakers, and nobody will be able to tell, unless it's a long run where the bass gets attenuated. With speakers, all you need is a cable that's thick enough for the run you're doing, and you're good. With RCA cables, you just need something reasonable; gold ends can reduce the cable's resistance a little bit, but you don't really *need* that. Nobody on the planet can tell the difference between $5 RCAs and $5K RCAs, assuming them1n rest of your gear is reasonably competent. (I've seen one example of people being able to tell the difference between cables, but that was because the decoder device was horribly broken and out of spec, so the two cables did sound slightly different. Naturally, the audiophiles convinced themselves the expensive cable was better, but the actual sound quality coming out of the system was objectively bad with both cables.)

In properly working systems, digital cables will either work or they won't. If they fail, they will generally do so in an extremely obvious way.

Mainstream audio products from quality manufacturers (Denon is my go-to) are incredibly good. You really don't need to spend a ton of money, and you don't need a ton of power. A 10-watt amplifier is only half as loud as a 100-watter, and you have to go to a thousand watts per channel to double the volume again. Spending way up on a big amplifier is a poor use of money, especially if you're going to be using a powered subwoofer, which will be pumping out about 90% of the total energy in the sytem.

*
For the record, that's been my argument all along... but I don't tell other people how to spend their money (though I do reserve the right to mock the choices of friends when preference flies in the face of science). I buy Denon or Onyko receivers (I've had 1 of each over the past... 17 years), and cheap get-the-job-done speaker wire. I don't run a complicated 7.(1.2.3) scenario with preamps and postamps and noise-filters and special signal carrying ferrets with little coats that sparkle in response to pink noise. Too much work, and too expensive!

Also, as Chairman_Mao mentions, while digital cables should be 0 or 1, I have run into at least one instance where it was 1, but at 25% (HDMI 2.0a for 4K signal vs older HDMI 1.4 cable - PC hooked up to my TV wouldn't detect the display as 4K capable until a cable capable of passing the signal was used). I suppose it depends on how you define failure though. Technically, the 1.4 cable was working at 100%. It just wasn't capable of passing the 4K signal.

I'll ditto the weird HDMI stories.

I've had a couple instances now where cables would work excellently right up until you want this one specific high end thing to work and then... nope.

Tyrian wrote:

Man, you really can go down the rabbit hole with AV gear (and accessory) expenditures, can't you? Friend of mine is definitely in that crowd. He has spent hundreds (or thousands) on "transparent cable" type stuff. That's way out of my budget (and always will be!). I can't hear the difference.

This way lies madness. And anyone who claims to hear a difference on regular other equipment is either lying to themselves or lying to sell you something.

I checked a guide for speaker wire for the length of my runs and it said 14 AWG was fine so I bought a couple of the most affordable 150ft spools I could find. It worked out fine. I'm going to do some custom baseboards with a kind of little pocket in them and a cover and that will hide all the wiring just fine and the materials to do it won't be expensive at all really.

I've done the almost-audiophile thing to a point. The one and only thing I will give them is that tube amps absolutely sound different than solid state amps. Whether one is better than the other or not is completely subjective.

All the other stuff though about this DAC with that amp and synergies and blah blah blah... it's mostly a lot of BS and hot air.

If you want a different sound just get different speakers or headphones. The hardware in between will never have as much an effect as the actual drivers themselves.

With again the one exception of tubes versus solid state for amps. There's something to that.

The rest of it I highly recommend ignoring happily and saving all the cash that brand of nuts will demand you lay out.

The one and only thing I will give them is that tube amps absolutely sound different than solid state amps.

You can actually get digital amps that sound like tubes. It has something to do with harmonics in the amplified signal. The tube sound can be exactly duplicated (well, except past clipping, which tubes handle better than digital), but IIRC, it takes an exceedingly expensive transistor amplifier to do it.

It's something about one doing even harmonics and the other doing odd, but I don't remember which was which, and vaguely remember it wasn't what you'd expect. (eg, transistors being even.)

If you want tube sound for anything resembling a reasonable price, use tubes. But they actually do understand the difference in the sound, and it can be duplicated in solid state.

All the other stuff though about this DAC with that amp and synergies and blah blah blah

I would make one observation there, though, that considering your speaker sound when buying an amp sound is a good idea. Onkyo amps, for instance, tend to be pretty bright, emphasizing the treble part of the signal. Denons tend to be warmer. Pairing an Onk with bright speakers can be pretty painful; I have a set of speakers that are much, much more pleasant on a Denon. (Honestly, I tend to think of Denon sound as being somewhat better, partially because of this. It's not *huge*, but if your speakers are real bright, you may find an Onkyo amplifier to be un-fun.)

I come seeking help! (Shameless cross-post from the Tech Help Thread)

TLDR: I want 1 cable from my shelf of stuff to my TV, and I want a soundbar w/ a wireless sub. Any suggestions?

TV is newer, it's a Sony XBR65X900E. I don't own a soundbar yet, so I'm open to suggestions.

Currently all the consoles and the receiver are on a set of shelves in the corner. The TV is mounted on the wall above our (stupid) fireplace. I run all the HDMI cables from the consoles and such into the receiver and then 1 HDMI cable up to the TV via a cheapish plastic wire channel.

The 2 big problems are:

1) The receiver is much older, so it doesn't recognize that the TV can send it sound too. I could run a second HDMI from the TV out to another In on the receiver, but that's still another cord.

2) I'd like to get away from having the receiver and 5:1 system and move to a simpler soundbar + sub.

We should have a thread for home audio... (turns out we do)

So most Soundbar's will accept a single input (Typically its optical). There are a few soundbars that also have HDMI inputs (essentially they are doing some HDMI switching) but you'll find most are just a simple Optical in with perhaps an analog input and bluetooth/NFC as well.

So if you want a single HDMI cable running to the TV what you want is some sort of HDMI switcher. Thankfully they are relatively cheap and do support 4K switching (but no HDR passthrough support). Most support autosense switching so unless you leave everything powered on 24X7 you won't ever have to manually switch HDMI inputs on it.

That way you can ditch your receiver and 5.1 for a Soundbar/Sub combo. Run all your consoles to the HDMI switcher inputs and a single HDMI from the Switcher Output to the TV and then from the TV run an optical cable to your new Soundbar. Done and Done.