[Discussion] Medical Quackery

This is a follow up to the thread "Medical quackery in the US upsets me very, very much". The aim of this current thread is to take up the discussion on medical quackery (widening the scope since the US isn't the only country concerned), discuss news item pertaining to it and the potential responses to address it.
The definition of medical quackery is not up for debate and includes, among others, homeopathy, vaccine skepticism, naturopathy, crystal healing, psychic healing.

SillyRabbit wrote:

One of the departments I oversee for my state is notary commissions. I had a message the other day from an epidemiologist with our state health dept. She's working on guidelines for parents who claim religious reasons for not vaxxing their kids and she wants some guidance from me on how to help these parents find notaries in the state. She's an epidemiologist. Trying to help people not vax their children. I have yet to actually speak to her, and I'm not looking forward to it. I'ma be like "I dunno, tell them to pray for one?"

Tell her that part of the guidelines will be that anytime there's an outbreak of a disease on the vaccination list her name and contact information will be given to the press who will be informed that she, despite her medical training, is responsible for the outbreak.

Demosthenes wrote:
Mixolyde wrote:
LarryC wrote:

I still think it would just be better to herd all the unvaccinated kids together and let the Old Sick reap through them like a buzz saw. They're not going to get vaccinated anyway, and this way preserves herd immunity for the vulnerable.

*Can't tell if serious.gif*

Quite a modest proposal, I'll bet Jonathan Swift would like to shake your hand.

Pretty sure Larry's serious, he's talked about this before. At the same time, I can't think of any other way to stop unvaccinated kids from harming (unintentionally) kids who can't be vaccinated for health reasons.

It's a practical solution based on the premise that herd immunity will definitely be broken because some people choose to be stupid. Once you just assume that this will happen (and it already has), one of the most practical ways to deal with it is to quarantine the unvaccinated together.

You won't necessarily have to relocate the families or anything. Most of that exposure comes from school and that's the critical part. Just getting herd immunity working there would already be a win.

One of my friends at work was "lucky enough to be in the test group for these immunotherapy stickers!". She showed some of them to me, they were just round stickers with little holograms on them stuck to the side of her neck, wrists, ankle and abdomen. She said "they've been tuned to resonate at the frequency of my immune system to spur increased activity!". Now, I've known this woman for over a decade and she's into everything that's not "Western Medicine" and has gone through stages of using essential oils, raw cooking, manifesting thought, some sort of meditation that causes your body to "vibrate"... all sorts of stuff. When she told me this one I just said "You know none of what you just said is real, right?" That didn't go over so well but we've been friends long enough that she still talks to me.

SillyRabbit wrote:

Unfortunately, the only input they want from me is the answer to: Where can I find a notary so that I can submit the forms that allow me to not vaccinate my child?

Need I mention I live in one of the yellow states in the John Oliver video?

If pharmacists claim they can decline to give out birth control because of their beliefs then you should be able to decline to help because of yours.

Interesting point, Flintheart.

Kehama wrote:

One of my friends at work was "lucky enough to be in the test group for these immunotherapy stickers!". She showed some of them to me, they were just round stickers with little holograms on them stuck to the side of her neck, wrists, ankle and abdomen. She said "they've been tuned to resonate at the frequency of my immune system to spur increased activity!". Now, I've known this woman for over a decade and she's into everything that's not "Western Medicine" and has gone through stages of using essential oils, raw cooking, manifesting thought, some sort of meditation that causes your body to "vibrate"... all sorts of stuff. When she told me this one I just said "You know none of what you just said is real, right?" That didn't go over so well but we've been friends long enough that she still talks to me.

This reminds me of a coworker from last year. Many many times I debated going the route you ended with. Must say I laughed pretty hard you actually were able to!

Did you let her know that increased immune activity without an actual viral/bacterial invasion results in the immune system attacking the body, or over-reacting to potential allergens? Welcome to asthma, inflammation, and connective tissue problems...

Robear wrote:

Did you let her know that increased immune activity without an actual viral/bacterial invasion results in the immune system attacking the body, or over-reacting to potential allergens? Welcome to asthma, inflammation, and connective tissue problems...

Nuh-uh, a resonating immune system begins to dance, which charms all the toxins so they fall in love and stop causing autism.

Duh.

DUH... Duh duh duh DUH... duh duh duh DUH... duh duh duh DUH.

Kehama wrote:

She said "they've been tuned to resonate at the frequency of my immune system to spur increased activity!". Now, I've known this woman for over a decade and she's into everything that's not "Western Medicine" and has gone through stages of using essential oils, raw cooking, manifesting thought, some sort of meditation that causes your body to "vibrate"... all sorts of stuff. When she told me this one I just said "You know none of what you just said is real, right?".

The Placebo Effect is a hell of a drug.

WebMD wrote:

For instance, in one study, people were given a placebo and told it was a stimulant. After taking the pill, their pulse rate sped up, their blood pressure increased, and their reaction speeds improved. When people were given the same pill and told it was to help them get to sleep, they experienced the opposite effects.

Even if I don't believe in things working due to a lack of reasoning, I tend to not voice the opinion. This is unless it causes harm to the person (including substantial financial burden). Otherwise it might actually be helping them out in a proven method. I would even dare to say manifest thought can function as a placebo in guided intent, since placebo is all mental anyhow.

Vibration meditation is a huge misconception. Basically when you meditate you put the body to sleep and leave consciousness aware. During this process the body starts to tingle. A lot of people call this vibrations and assign it some holy anomaly as it's seen as a gateway between separating the physical input to pure awareness. It's bench-marked to the gateway of floating or out-of-body experiences. In reality it's the nerves saying good night.

A unique experience though for people who are normally asleep before this happens. Also means you got a good meditation going of ignoring outside stimuli. Although as you meditate more and more these vibrations get ignored along with the rest of the input from the body and you can reach theta (brainwave) before it happens and not notice it.

Either way any novice at meditating gets hung-up on the vibration/tingle of their nerves. I did for months. My thoughts on the matter are my own and are expressed as such through experience. Each person is living their own lives and has to learn lessons in their own regards to make them their truths. So I smile and nod because it isn't nice (nor mean without mean intent) to try and take away what makes them happy.

GoldenDog,

As long as a person is not in a life threatening situation, then that type of passive response is fine. I would argue though, that it might be your duty as a rational thinker to, at the very least, make an attempt to gently steer this misguided person toward the light of truth.

I'm talking about factual truth. The type that has mountains of evidence behind it. And though you claim that the placebo affect is a hell of a drug, (I realize you were probably joking), it won't cure cancer or any other deadly affliction.

There is a misunderstanding with what I wrote.

RawkGWJ wrote:

GoldenDog,
As long as a person is not in a life threatening situation, then that type of passive response is fine. I would argue though, that it might be your duty as a rational thinker to, at the very least, make an attempt to gently steer this misguided person toward the light of truth.

GoldenDog wrote:

Even if I don't believe in things working due to a lack of reasoning, I tend to not voice the opinion. This is unless it causes harm to the person...

My intent felt like that was part of my opinion. It wasn't clear enough though, sorry for any misunderstanding. I have gone through 5 cancer cases with family members. Four resulted in death directly and indirectly through weakening as a result of chemo. In two instances acupuncture was tried along with non-traditional remedies, but only with the combination of chemo and the supervision of a cancer specialist. I agree that any major illness should be treated with the highest medical services available. I consider not doing that as causing harm to the person.

The people running around with the "power bands" and "immune stickers" though is what I was referencing. The ones with potentially perceived issues benefiting (mentally and perhaps physically) in holistic self-medicating.

Trying to convince people that magic herbs are not effective treatment is exhausting and at least in my experience a waste of time.

Early in my practice as an oncologist I felt it was my duty to do everything I could to convince my patients that using unproven treatments was a waste of time and money. I gradually changed to the philosophy that as long as they also pursued proven therapies, I wouldn't try to fight them on their herbs (although there is much data raising concerns that this may negatively impact efficacy of some cancer treatments).

I eventually got so beaten down and tired of being attacked (we doctors know there are natural cures for cancer but hold out on telling people because it would affect our income you know) that I decided hell with it. These are adults and they are free to make decisions I don't agree with. So the 21 year old who wants to treat his highly curable lymphoma with chiropractic care and vitamins? Not the way I would go but your call. The 36 year old who wants to treat her localized but highly aggressive breast cancer with prayer? Well here are your standard options and the cure rate but it's your decision. I just carefully document my recommendations, their decision to choose alternative therapy and promise I'm here if and when you change your mind.

The 21 year old changed his mind when his lymphoma invaded his duodenum caused a perforation and he present in multisystem organ failure. His entire family showed up at the ICU and said they were ready to try traditional medicine. He died 12 hours later. The 36 year old came back when her breast auto-amputated with widespread mets to liver, lungs and bones. She decided to pursue standard therapy (and never misses an appointment or a treatment) and last I saw still had her cancer under control over 5 years out. But any chance for cure was long gone.

One of the things that drove me out of practice.

Docjoe wrote:

Trying to convince people that magic herbs are not effective treatment is exhausting and at least in my experience a waste of time.

Life would be so much easier if modern health care was half as effective as an old lady in the woods in a fantasy movie.

Docjoe, that's just the nature of the human beast. As a lawyer I see the contrarian side of humanity all the time, usually played out along these lines:

Me: in my view, you should do X because Y. If you do A then B. Therefore I recommend X.

Client: but C D and E. I want to do A.

Me:C D and E are irrelevant. I cannot recommend option A. Please consider the risks. I repeat my advice that X is what you should do.

(Client continues to complain they want A for 15 minutes and the conversation loops)

Me: look, you came to me for my professional advice. Do X. If you do A you are not acting towards your best interest.

Client: grumble grumble okay X it is but I really want A...

The trick is not to get discouraged simply because your advice is ignored; it's usually a sign the client needs your advice even more than the average person.

Delbin wrote:
Docjoe wrote:

Trying to convince people that magic herbs are not effective treatment is exhausting and at least in my experience a waste of time.

Life would be so much easier if modern health care was half as effective as an old lady in the woods in a fantasy movie.

In our defense, we're generally more than half as effective. We're just not absolutely as effective.

LarryC wrote:
Delbin wrote:
Docjoe wrote:

Trying to convince people that magic herbs are not effective treatment is exhausting and at least in my experience a waste of time.

Life would be so much easier if modern health care was half as effective as an old lady in the woods in a fantasy movie.

In our defense, we're generally more than half as effective. We're just not absolutely as effective. ;)

I think that Deblin meant effective at convincing people, rather than effective at curing. Unproven medical therapies are, at best, the same as placebo. The placebo effect is very low. (4.7% ? I'm not sure about that number).

Approved, evidence based medical therapies have a much higher effectiveness than that.

RawkGWJ wrote:
LarryC wrote:
Delbin wrote:
Docjoe wrote:

Trying to convince people that magic herbs are not effective treatment is exhausting and at least in my experience a waste of time.

Life would be so much easier if modern health care was half as effective as an old lady in the woods in a fantasy movie.

In our defense, we're generally more than half as effective. We're just not absolutely as effective. ;)

I think that Deblin meant effective at convincing people, rather than effective at curing. Unproven medical therapies are, at best, the same as placebo. The placebo effect is very low. (4.7% ? I'm not sure about that number).

Approved, evidence based medical therapies have a much higher effectiveness than that.

I mean more like people grow up watching movies where someone has some affliction or injury, and the old lady in the woods give them a mix of herbal tea and they're completely cured in the next scene. Maybe if the disease is particularly bad, you have to climb a mountain and fight off a harpy, but it's still just a flower that has a 100% cure rate. Modern medicine just can't compete with that fantasy. It's sad when people think there's a cure for everything.

Delbin wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:
LarryC wrote:
Delbin wrote:
Docjoe wrote:

Trying to convince people that magic herbs are not effective treatment is exhausting and at least in my experience a waste of time.

Life would be so much easier if modern health care was half as effective as an old lady in the woods in a fantasy movie.

In our defense, we're generally more than half as effective. We're just not absolutely as effective. ;)

I think that Deblin meant effective at convincing people, rather than effective at curing. Unproven medical therapies are, at best, the same as placebo. The placebo effect is very low. (4.7% ? I'm not sure about that number).

Approved, evidence based medical therapies have a much higher effectiveness than that.

I mean more like people grow up watching movies where someone has some affliction or injury, and the old lady in the woods give them a mix of herbal tea and they're completely cured in the next scene. Maybe if the disease is particularly bad, you have to climb a mountain and fight off a harpy, but it's still just a flower that has a 100% cure rate. Modern medicine just can't compete with that fantasy. It's sad when people think there's a cure for everything.

I do wonder how much of our perception of the world is shaped by the narrative constraints that mean that 99% of the injuries and illnesses shown on TV are shrugged off by the next episode. Even beyond the fantasy remedies, how many times will people get shot or knocked over the head and be perfectly fine a few scenes later? I mean, we mostly know that they're fiction but I do wonder if they're setting up unrealistic expectations about the effectiveness of modern medicine. A lot of injuries will result in lingering effects for the rest of your life, even in the best case scenario.

A significant part of that is because a surprising amount of modern medicine does actually do things that would be downright miraculous not a hundred years ago. Antibiotics cure diseases that would have been fatal. A stab to your gut is no longer a long death sentence. You could be out in days doing mostly what you'd been doing before. I've broken my arms three times. In an earlier time period, I would be seriously limited in what I could do with them. But since I live in the present, it's like nothing happened. It hurts a bit when it's cold. That's about it. Vaccines made childhood plagues rare. It's like we just banned those diseases by law.

My own specialty is anesthetics, and they're almost magical potions. I give them and the person is out in seconds - almost exactly like in TV. Not like 5 seconds, but 30-40 for sure. And they're back up and conversant in 20 minutes. Like nothing happened. I stick needles into people and they paralyzed and numb like it's a magic spell of some sort, and surgeons can rearrange our bodies like they're fantastically complicated car parts. No hideous screaming, no insanity from pain, and certain much less death and disability.

We're so close to ideal in so many ways that it's easier for people to think that it's incompetence or malice that accounts for the failures, rather than just that's the cutting edge of our tech right now.

So when someone else comes along and claims magical things, it's easier to believe them, because what competent scientists can do is already so close to it.

Do our overlords have any control over what comes up as ads for GWJ search results?

If so, as a patient, I humbly request we block anything from the two I've highlighted in red squares.
IMAGE(https://s2.postimg.org/b54whxl61/cancerads.jpg)

I can outline why these are problematic if need be but we've already covered a lot of that ground here and in other threads.

krev82 wrote:

Do our overlords have any control over what comes up as ads for GWJ search results?

If so, as a patient, I humbly request we block anything from the two I've highlighted in red squares.
IMAGE(https://s2.postimg.org/b54whxl61/cancerads.jpg)

I can outline why these are problematic if need be but we've already covered a lot of that ground here and in other threads.

LOL, wow that is almost a who's who of cancer quackery!

I suspect they don't have much say over it, given that it's via an embedded Google search. But I've never looked into it too closely, so it'd be nice if I was wrong and there was a way to filter that stuff out.

Natural cancer is so much better than the fake stuff.

Pretty much zero say, sorry. Google gonna google.

Huh... That's really insidious. Algorithms detecting 'topics of interest' and injecting snake oil promotions right back in to the conversation. Little things like this remind me we're actually living our dystopian future, just without the metallic grey skies :p

Larry, I've had only a few full anesthesia experiences, but they always feature a strong spice scent just before I go under. Something very like cardamom. Very strong, very reassuring for some reason.

I also enjoy chatting with the surgical team. Usually they just keep the back and forth going even after I get zapped, so I *know* they are hoping to catch me mid-sentence. It's pretty relaxing, to be honest, which is a great thing before surgery.

Very much related to medical quackery, the unending quest to eat healthy, GMO-free foods. The SciBabe (Yvette d'Entremont) has gone down the deep, deep rabbit hole to write a unforgiving article about David Avocado Wolfe, one of the gurus of the "superfood universe" and "alternative health."
The article is merciless. And glorious.

Eleima wrote:

Very much related to medical quackery, the unending quest to eat healthy, GMO-free foods. The SciBabe (Yvette d'Entremont) has gone down the deep, deep rabbit hole to write a unforgiving article about David Avocado Wolfe, one of the gurus of the "superfood universe" and "alternative health."
The article is merciless. And glorious.

...That, that chocolate octave of the sun thing.. That can't be real? Please? Tell me that isn't real.

Great Cthulhu that article... I think my jaw dislocated as it dropped further and further the more I read.

I used to work at a food co-op in the early 00's so I've heard some very similar things espoused in person.
The "mushrooms are from space" thing isn't his invention, either. Ethnobotanist/psychedelic guru Terence McKenna has been saying that since the 70's.