Doctor Who *Spoilers Abound! We've lost Containment*

Baron Of Hell wrote:
pyxistyx wrote:

Another cracking episode :O

Spoiler:

A few things that maybe don't hold up to scrutiny - like how is sim-Doctor also blind when nobody knows that's the case apart from himself and the robot dude. surely the simulation would still have his sight - but, that's generally par for the course with the series anyway

Spoiler:

They could be scanning the planet and doctor in real time or even just daily for the simulation. They never said how they are collecting data for the simulation or how often the simulation is updated with new data.

Spoiler:

I had a similar take on it. My assumption was that this particular simulation was forked off from reality right after the credits.

Do they explain why the Doctor was able to record Bill's and Nardole's excursion with his sonic glasses (I so hoped that we would never see those again, by the way)? I guess he tapped into the whole recording and downloaded them to his device, but still... I feel like I've seen the monsters in this episode somewhere before – at least the design, but I can't put my finger on it... might not be Doctor Who related, but I feel it is...

they're kinda 'feral vampire-ish' in appearance with the hollow bat-noses, so the style of them has probably shown up on some show or movie in the past.

This episode reminded me how much I do not like the current story format. The build up of the story/world and then five minutes of deus ex machina/The Doctor to end the episode. I feel like a classic Who multi-episode arc would have done this story more justice. End the first episode right at Nardole's "moment", then continue the story next week. I realize they are probably attempting to create an overarching plot for this series, but the modern Who story method feels detrimental. Or that could just be the nostalgia talking...

Oh and...

Spoiler:

The Pope speaking Italian and needing translation when standing right next to the TARDIS, raised an eyebrow. Which was reconciled in my brain when it was all determined to be simulation. Poor writing or Moffat being sneaky?

Well it's part one of a three part story, so you'll kinda get your wish

I enjoyed the latest episode but I'm not comepletly sure how I feel about it really. Have to see how they wrap up the story.

Spoiler:

The Tardis not translating bothered me. I didn't really feel it was explained away by the simulation either really?

Was expecting more and didn't really enjoy it. The new monster didn't do anything for me, really, The Silence is probably still my favourite after the angels.

Booth wrote:

Finally got around to watching the 5th episode, been busy.

I didn't mind it except for the capitalism hate, which was central to the story so kind of a bummer. I didn't mind any thing else and thought it was a cool and fairly original ending just don't care for the blame to be placed on capitalism. More like greed and corruption.

Next episode looks like one I could really like, minus the...

Spoiler:

...Missy being in it bit. Still keeping hope she is not the one in the vault.

If there's a time in the distant future where capitalism (or any other economic construct based on scarcity of resources) no longer applies to humanity, I think we should discard it. This episode showed that moment. *shrug*

If the episode makes us look at ourselves and wonder if there are aspects of society where capitalism need not apply, that's not such a bad thing either. That's not "capitalism hate". It's recognizing where capitalism may not be the right tool for the job. Hopefully we're not so stupid as to consider it a cure-all system for everything to the point where human beings only have value commensurate with their participation in it (like in the episode). Then again, we've been that stupid before.

Is it possible for a companion to

Spoiler:

save the day without almost getting killed in the process?

Been busy at work but finally watched the latest episode. It was alright, enjoyable.

I feel like this season has been a lot of just standard Who stories for me though. Not necessarily a bad thing but I'd like some 10/10 episodes thrown in there.

Rat Boy wrote:

Is it possible for a companion to

Spoiler:

save the day without almost getting killed in the process?

I missed the explanation as to why she

Spoiler:

wasn't killed.

Spoiler:

My reading was that Bill's ability to manifest a mental image of her Mum enabled her to fight off the monks' rewriting. Perhaps Bill's lynchpin position in the monks' mind control thing gave her a leg up or something. It's always been my least favourite way of the Doctor winning an episode, and I disliked it when Martha did it to The Master, and Clara's leaf did it to that planet (which was an amazingly designed and filmed episode, but whose story fizzled out), and I disliked it here. Maybe kids liked it better, and the somewhat soppy aesop works a bit better for them.

Spoiler:

I really wish they would do without the teary-eyed goodbyes when it's midseason and we know damn well neither the Doctor nor the Companion are in any real danger. Save it for the Christmas special!

Also ... Missy crying about remembering all the people she killed? It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel earned. Like the whole dramatic episode with Davros last season - it's a waste to use the character this way when we know she'll just turn around and stab the Doc in the back as soon as she gets the chance.

One of the many mistakes that Moffet makes is that he thinks Dr Who is fantasy rather than Sci Fi. I've seen too many episodes where plot points are resolved illogically or through "the power of love". It's lazy writing.

Spoiler:

What I gathered from the episode is that the "memory" that Bill made in her head about her mother
was something that the Monks couldn't observe. Therefore that memory was untainted by the Monks.
By focusing on only it, and projecting it to everyone through the pyramid room thingy, Bill was able to break the connection of all her other thoughts and memories that were tainted by the Monks and that the Monks were using to control the world.

That's why Bill didn't have to die. She found another way to break from the power of the Monks.

Alz wrote:
Spoiler:

Also ... Missy crying about remembering all the people she killed? It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel earned. Like the whole dramatic episode with Davros last season - it's a waste to use the character this way when we know she'll just turn around and stab the Doc in the back as soon as she gets the chance.

Well, maybe. I'm​ inclined to agree with you, but I'd really love to see them surprise us and go in a new direction with that character.

gore wrote:

Well, maybe. I'm​ inclined to agree with you, but I'd really love to see them surprise us and go in a new direction with that character.

Warning: Jessica Jones spoilers within

Spoiler:

I feel like Missy's alignment shift would have more weight to it if they hadn't just thrown her in mid-episode for some morally ambivalent advice. I compare it to the mid-season story arc in Jessica Jones, when she and Kilgrave are together and he tries to prove to her how he can be "good". When he does try to help, he does so in his own monstrous way and is undone by his own pathological Narcissism.

This happens naturally and feels necessary to show how when a morally bankrupt sociopath tries to be "good" to prove a point, they're undone by their corrupt motives and lack of compassion and humanity.

Being "good" isn't just a choice, it's the motives behind the choice. At this point, it still feels like a con.

i'm thinking that...

Spoiler:

...Given that John Simm shows up in this series at some point, that there's going to be some "inner battle between the id / ego sort of a thing going on in Missy's head at some point.

pyxistyx wrote:

i'm thinking that...

Spoiler:

...Given that John Simm shows up in this series at some point, that there's going to be some "inner battle between the id / ego sort of a thing going on in Missy's head at some point.

Spoiler:

IMAGE(https://media.giphy.com/media/S9LY7lsg9Evny/giphy.gif)

Ok. well..

That's probably the most tense I think I've ever been watching an episode of New Who, given that I knew what the 'twist' was from last weeks preview anyway.

Straight up spoiler so people know what I'm ranting about...

Spoiler:

Bill is shot through the chest (like - massive, no going back, see through to the far side, all my organs are missing - shot), kept alive with a mechanical heart before finally being forced into literal conversion therapy to remove her individuality and turn her into a Cyberman just in time for the Dr to turn up and see the results.

All I can say about it is...

Spoiler:

If they've chosen to kill Bill off in the manner shown. In a fate SO, SO much worse than death. After turning out one of the BEST companions the series has had in YEARS, (not to mention the first openly lesbian one!) then I am going to be so incredibly pissed off with Moffat and the series creators as a whole..

That said, I suspect (hope!) the Doctor will be probably using his regeneration energy to magic her back into existence somehow, hence the bit at the very start of the episode.

I shall reserve my full wrath until next week.

*Actually, no. I won't. I'm really f*cking angry about what happened to Bill in this episode And I'm not sure if that's because it's really GOOD writing (in which case, well played, writing team - ya got me!) or really BAD, lazy writing, in which case...

Spoiler:

It's yet another name for the "Bring Out Your Gay's" trope list of dead lesbians in TV.

I'm 99% certain it will end up being the former, but knowing that the rumour is she's just a companion for one series...

* Welp...

Spoiler:

Apparently Moffat confirmed that that's basically 'it' for Bill. Either he's lying to cover up a 'twist' or my worst assumptions were correct.

To kill her off is one thing. To put her, as a lesbian, through, what is essentially the ultimate CONVERSION THERAPY first, to make her "normal and emotionless like everyone else" ...f*cking. hell. That's either staggeringly short sighted or sickeningly twisted from a writing standpoint.

Ugh. I can't believe I've literally given myself a headache with how goddamn angry this has made me.
Sorry for the rant everyone!

The only thing I didn't like was the doctor referring to Missy always in the masculine pronoun. Loved the interactions between Bill and rag man. I think most people will see the last scene coming a mile away unless they haven't been watching who for long.

The big hole in the plot was interesting but I was sure it was going to get plugged up. The episode reminded me of a twilight zone episode but with a few changes. I know the change will be reversed probably in the next episode just like the blindness.

@pyxistyx: If this is really meant to be an allusion for conversion therapy, then surely Bill will be turned into a human again, because conversion therapy does not work in real life... I do wonder whether any of the writers even thought about those parallels, I would not give them that much credit.

I mostly liked the episode, even though the similarities between this and Genesis of the Daleks was so much on the nose that the Master didn't need to shout out the alternative episode title.

Quick question: is the next episode Capaldi's last one or the Christmas special?

I think it's very very unlikely that Bill will stay that way.

There were a lot of laugh out loud moments for me this episode (I even checked the writing credits to see if they got a guest writer). Most were the sharply witty lines from disguised Master ("Will help with the horror to come." "What horror?" "Mainly the tea."). Missy's insistence that the Doctor's name was literally Doctor Who. The way Missy dialed up the Scottish in her accent when she talked about how she was standing in for the Doctor (so it sounded to my American ears anyway). And the cybermen looking like the original laughably ridiculous low-budget cybermen from the 60s.

Though their visual portrayal of a black hole was way off, the time dilation aspect was a clever use of a real phenomenon.

Got a pretty heavy Zathras vibe from the disguised master, which was awesome.

Thank IDRIS this was a two parter. If this really is Bill's fate, they added some (much needed?) gravitas to New Who. Which makes Pyxistyx's observations all the more poignant. However, I am not sure they can cash the rather large check/cheque they just wrote, but we shall see. DoctorDonna anyone?

Oh and..

Spoiler:

Missy/Master/BFF Timelord? What about Romana!

Spoiler:

I don't think this will be Bill's fate even if she is written off the show. Kind of expecting some redeeming heroics from Missy, killing herself to save Bill, passing the doctor's test but still leaving him without his friend.

Can't wait to get caught up on Who. Busy season at work and don't have much free time. I work at a fireworks store so the mad rush should be over soon...

Do you think that the makers of Dr Who will every tune the horror back to levels where its OK for the whole family, including children to watch again?

Of course horror and a high body count have always been a part of Who but Sleep no more and to a lesser extent World enough and time both contain scenes that are too much for the majority of very young children.

With Moffat leaving, I would suspect...possibly maybe? Most of that horror stuff generally comes from either him or Mark "League of Gentlemen" Gatiss.

Right now I'm going with the theory...

Spoiler:

The Doctor uses his energy to deus ex machina 'regenerate' Bill (I'm wondering if the kid that shows up briefly in that trailer is supposed to be her - plus, her brief voice over at the start), thus forcing his own regeneration in time for Christmas