[Discussion] Trans Issues and Rights

This thread is for the discussion of current events relating to trans rights, for discussion of the lives of trans people and difficulties they face, and for basic questions about the lives and experiences of trans people. (If basic questions become dominant we'll look at making a Q&A thread at that time.)

It's been a while since I've seen it; probably about 7 years. Given that it aired in 2010, and from going over some reviews of it to get an idea of what happened I'm not super optimistic.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/d6DWGTY.png)

So he lied. What a surprise...

Yup, it went down tonight.

Trump administration withdraws protections for transgender students
(Mark Hensch, The Hill, 2017-02-22)

As a friend pointed out, regarding this bit:

Attorney General Sessions wrote:

Congress, state legislatures and local governments are in a position to adopt appropriate policies or laws addressing this issue

This, of course, makes things a complete nightmare as soon as you start talking about school trips. Sports? Field trips? Academic competitions? Band? Freaking museum or zoo trips? Going to the next county over? Going to all-state? Nationals?

Where you pee depends on where you are. Whether you can use the locker room with your team depends on where you are.

Fun times.

There is still hope. As it notes at the end of the story:

“While it’s disappointed to see the Trump administration revoke the guidance, the administration cannot change what Title IX means,” Joshua Block, ACLU senior staff attorney, said in a statement.

“When it decided to hear Gavin Grimm’s case, the Supreme Court said it would decide what interpretation of Title IX is correct, without taking any administration’s guidance into consideration,” he added. “We’re confident the law is on Gavin’s side and he will prevail just as he did in the Fourth Circuit.”

The courts have repeatedly determined, including at the Supreme Court level, that discrimination on the basis of sexual stereotypes is covered by these laws. That's really the foundation of the guidance provided by Obama's administration: it was about explaining how the law works, and not some novel interpretation. It could be that SCOTUS decides that bathroom access is special and not covered by the law, but I would not have been surprised to see SCOTUS go 5-4 in favor of Grimm before Scalia died, which would be 5-3 now or 5-4 after Scalia-lite joins the bench. So... we will see.

(Also: I'm pretty sure I threw up in my mouth a little as the thought of Sessions being Attorney General of the United States rammed home.)

Transgender teen wins the Texas state girls wrestling championship. Much handwringing and pearl clutching ensues:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...

The victory was seen as equal parts unavoidable — quick and noticeably strong, he entered the tournament unbeaten in 52 matches against girls — and contentious. The University Interscholastic League, which oversees sports in Texas public schools, ordered Beggs to continue competing in the girls’ division despite heavy uproar and a lawsuit earlier this month in a Travis County district court.

Warning: regular misgendering of the young man by interviewees.

I'm kind of feeling that this is a good thing because it's really forcing people to deal with these issues personally, professionally and legislatively.

I suspect the same hand-wringing and pearl clutching would have occurred if they let him compete in the male division, guess trans* people are only allowed to compete against other trans* people who are transitioning in the same direction and to the same degree *eyeroll*.

If someone isn't done transitioning, how would they determine where it would be most fair for that person to compete? Would it be an unfair advantage to have a nearly-transitioned male competing in the female division, or would that male be unfairly disadvantaged if he were put into the men's division "too early"? Politics aside, how would these things be determined to make sure the competitions are physically fair to everyone? Is dividing divisions into male/female the real problem rather than putting people into groups based on physical features such as weight and muscle density? Not just for wrestling, but for any sport that has male/female categories.

bekkilyn wrote:

If someone isn't done transitioning, how would they determine where it would be most fair for that person to compete? Would it be an unfair advantage to have a nearly-transitioned male competing in the female division, or would that male be unfairly disadvantaged if he were put into the men's division "too early"? Politics aside, how would these things be determined to make sure the competitions are physically fair to everyone? Is dividing divisions into male/female the real problem rather than putting people into groups based on physical features such as weight and muscle density? Not just for wrestling, but for any sport that has male/female categories.

These are really good questions, asked with much more tact than I may have achieved.

As has been pointed out before - 'fully transitioned' and 'done transitioning' aren't really things that exist. Someone on hormones is going to be on them their entire life, and genital surgery is one step on a long path, not an end point. And if someone is satisfied with where they are on that path, and doesn't want to move farther down it, they're 'done transitioning'.

Tanglebones wrote:

As has been pointed out before - 'fully transitioned' and 'done transitioning' aren't really things that exist. Someone on hormones is going to be on them their entire life, and genital surgery is one step on a long path, not an end point. And if someone is satisfied with where they are on that path, and doesn't want to move farther down it, they're 'done transitioning'.

Which makes me all the more curious about my questions above since all of these things would factor in somewhere.

The NCAA and IOC have policies for trans athletes. In general, trans men can compete in the men's division with no medical intervention.

At a high level, the rule is '1 year of hormone therapy and get under x ng/dl serum testosterone' for trans women.

This is a subject I saw discussed on television some time ago and forgot to look into further, in relation to trans individuals in athletics. Lots of hand-wringing was taking place.

I don't see which 'parts' an individual is packing, or their choice of gender portrayal, as a deciding factor, not in a competitive instance, not as much as how far along the journey of muscle mass changes, testosterone levels, and natural strength output, an individual is. It may be as simple as a lack of understanding on the subject, as is mostly the case. I certainly have ignorance of the subject which is embarrassing as someone who would put forth "Well, a trans male/female is a male/female..." when tasked with queries over physical advantages or disadvantages. I fumble around citing that medication brings it all into balance without actually being sure, but making sure I come across as if I know it to be true.

I'm quite a slight individual, male, and I am still blessed with more natural strength than women with a larger frame in my workplace, even some who work out. There's a fair amount of daily manual labor to get through, and what the girls struggle with gets passed over to the boys. I thought Olivia was having me on whilst claiming she couldn't shift a tray full of cutlery (which can get heavy if stacked) until she almost fell over trying to keep a grasp on it. She is a similar height to me with a moderately athletic build.

I suppose a good question would be, if I was to go on the necessary trans medication how much strength would I lose and in what sort of time frame? Does natural strength output increase in a similar fashion when transitioning from female to male?

Yup. And that's what the IOC and NCAA policies are based on. Within a year after blocking testosterone, the advantages in muscle-building are effectively gone. I haven't seen any clear numbers for how quickly adding testosterone provides a benefit in muscle-building, but I also haven't really seen trans guys clamoring to compete in women's divisions.

The situation in Texas basically comes down to poor policy written by people who waved their hands at people trying to tell them how these things work (and pointedly ignored the existence of trans guys despite people repeatedly trying to point out that they exist).

Exogenous testosterone is a disallowed substance for competitors. Disallowed substances are allowed if competitors are prescribed it for a medical condition by their doctor. Transgender people are prescribed exogenous hormone therapy by their doctors for a medical condition. Competitors are required to compete in men's or women's divisions based on the gender given on their birth certificate.

Therefore, a trans man who was assigned female at birth and who has not been able to update that marker for whatever reason (was born somewhere where it's not allowed, a judge is required to approve it but won't approve it because they're a minor, they can't afford to do it, etc.) is required to compete in the women's division, and their taking testosterone is allowed because it is treating a medical condition.

With a more sound policy (one requiring trans men and enbies receiving testosterone treatment to compete on men's teams, for example), he would be competing on the men's team. But the people making policy just put their heads in the sand when people explained this to them and said "NOPE! Lalalalalala, we're just going to do it based on birth certificate." *shrug* :l

Thanks. That's better than what Google turned up. So, transphobia, misinformation, unnecessary hurdles to clear. This is what consumed parts of the discussion I got in on.

I see no reason why upon gaining factual knowledge of the medicinal effects on muscle building, and a timescale, that it's not a simple solution to have trans men and women compete in their gender category.

Toss in the crazy trans person trope on top of it. Apparently this trans boy was definitely trying to hurt his competitors to the point that their parents felt the need to pray for their safety and how could he just do that to their daughters without a care?

Jesus, everything about that article makes me want to punch some people. -_-;;

It's as unfair for Mack as it is the girls he is facing. Mack has a physical advantage because he is a male competing in the female division. Were Mack to take the decision not to compete he would be forgotten about by the powers that be, no rules shall (hopefully) be brought into line with modern society, and wrestling would be lost to him. At least this way there's a great big spotlight on the matter.

It can't be easy for Mack. I'd feel out of place were I being left little alternative but to go in there and steamroll female competitors, or instead train never to compete.

Does anyone think there's a hint of unsettlement at a trans man perhaps going in and squashing the male division? Where it then becomes a case of too much testosterone creating another unfair advantage?

RnRClown wrote:

It's as unfair for Mack as it is the girls he is facing. Mack has a physical advantage because he is a male competing in the female division. Were Mack to take the decision not to compete he would be forgotten about by the powers that be, no rules shall (hopefully) be brought into line with modern society, and wrestling would be lost to him. At least this way there's a great big spotlight on the matter.

It can't be easy for Mack. I'd feel out of place were I being left little alternative but to go in there and steamroll female competitors, or instead train never to compete.

Does anyone think there's a hint of unsettlement at a trans man perhaps going in and squashing the male division? Where it then becomes a case of too much testosterone creating another unfair advantage?

I'm sure no matter where Mack competes there will be complaints about him.

True. Until transgender is thought of just the same as cisgender, by which I mean normal, it's almost irrelevant to dispute such details. There will always be another reason, another hoop to jump through, stemming from transphobia much more than the interest of fairness.

I have a lot of respect for those who continue to move forward through each and every quandary with grace, honesty, and knowledge. It brings those who are salvageable back from the brink and paves the way for those like themselves to have an easier time of it. Those who are so consumed by hatred will find fewer and fewer allies, and less places where they are welcome if they choose to express those views.

Go, Mack! Making the world a better place, little by little. As are those who support him, be it in person or on the internet with truth bombs.

What would be the best website to stay up to date with any progress (should there be any)? I'm sure you'll all be on top of it for us, but just to be sure.

I don't really have much input to add to the conversation other than listening, but I do want to thank Freyja and Hypatian for helping to answer my questions. I am glad there are some good rules in place. I just wish these athletes didn't have to go through so many troubles with people who choose to remain ignorant.

Does anyone think there's a hint of unsettlement at a trans man perhaps going in and squashing the male division? Where it then becomes a case of too much testosterone creating another unfair advantage?

It doesn't really work that way. Clinical guidelines for hormone therapy don't prescribe the amount of testosterone you'd have to take, let alone accounting for where you might have started on an estrogen-based puberty.

Also bear in mind testosterone is a Schedule II controlled substance in the US, any trans guy getting prescribed that much is going to get eyebrows raised at his doctor.

I'd also consider that if trans men taking T gave them an unfair advantage in male divisions, you'd expect to see trans men dominating their sports, but that really isn't happening.

Demosthenes wrote:

Toss in the crazy trans person trope on top of it. Apparently this trans boy was definitely trying to hurt his competitors to the point that their parents felt the need to pray for their safety and how could he just do that to their daughters without a care?

Jesus, everything about that article makes me want to punch some people. -_-;;

I'm struggling to see where in the article it was implied that folks thought Beggs was intentionally trying to hurt his opponents. Yes, there were concerns about injury, but what I saw it was based on the strength advantage he had gained during transition, not because of malicious intent.

Even though there was a lot of misgendering, the overall understanding by most folks quoted was that the system was failing everyone in this case.

I'm assuming that the current rules for trans athletes were created without much input from doctors or trans people. Assuming we keep two segregated leagues of sports based on sex (as we do now), what would fair rules look like?

I am curious with no gotcha moment or questions.

Seth wrote:

Assuming we keep two segregated leagues of sports based on sex (as we do now), what would fair rules look like?

I'm having an introspective moment and I'm trying my best to learn about this issue, so I want to take a stab at it from what I've gathered so far. Spoilering for possible misconceptions or misterming and I welcome any and all corrections! I'm trying.

Spoiler:

It would seem to me, after careful consideration, that there is no such thing as fair in this situation. The assumption of binary gender, while convenient for the majority, contradicts reality. The original premise of segregation into two leagues is already unfair.

I don't see a way forward without the majority leaving their comfort zones and abandoning their flawed notions about reality.

nel e nel wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:

Toss in the crazy trans person trope on top of it. Apparently this trans boy was definitely trying to hurt his competitors to the point that their parents felt the need to pray for their safety and how could he just do that to their daughters without a care?

Jesus, everything about that article makes me want to punch some people. -_-;;

I'm struggling to see where in the article it was implied that folks thought Beggs was intentionally trying to hurt his opponents. Yes, there were concerns about injury, but what I saw it was based on the strength advantage he had gained during transition, not because of malicious intent.

Even though there was a lot of misgendering, the overall understanding by most folks quoted was that the system was failing everyone in this case.

I was looking at the "Mixed Messages" section, first couple of paragraphs talking about Lisa Latham's apparent belief that her daughter was going to be injured and why wasn't the school stopping Mack from competing and injuring her daughter, going so far as to sue to stop Mack from competing against her daughter.

Like, she speaks with some sympathy towards Mack near the end of that section, but she tried to sue to stop him from competing against her daughter and keeps talking about praying for her safety. I dunno, to me, it speaks to the idea that Mack is callous and uncaring about his opponents' safety. Maybe that's just me though.

RnRClown wrote:

Does anyone think there's a hint of unsettlement at a trans man perhaps going in and squashing the male division? Where it then becomes a case of too much testosterone creating another unfair advantage?

My basic answer is that testosterone, and many other hormones, are already tested for and controlled in sports so there is no need for additional regulation. Just treat trans competitors the same as their cis counterparts (re: excess testosterone) and everyone is fine.

This unfortunately leaves places like Texas with the option to mandate competing according to birth sex AND regulating testosterone levels accordingly, which would force trans competitors to choose between sports and hormonal transition. :-/

This is a Nightmare and a Genocide: Jaquarrius Holland is the Sixth Black Trans Woman Murdered This Year

Mesha Caldwell, 41

Jamie Lee Wounded Arrow, 28

JoJo Striker, 23

Keke Collier, 24

Chyna Gibson, 31

Ciara McElveen, 21

Jaquarrius Holland, 18

Wasn't sure where else to put this, story of trans woman who - though before transitioning - was part of crew that climbed Everest and then went on all sorts of sdventure as a travel writer. She also wrote an autobiography about her experiences and faced some attacks and questions.

https://youtu.be/KbK09WxE2Go

Has anyone else watched Dave Chappelle's two Netflix comedy specials?

I'm still trying to figure out why he thought it was a good idea spending ten or fifteen minutes between the two sets punching down to the trans community.

1Dgaf wrote:

Wasn't sure where else to put this, story of trans woman who - though before transitioning - was part of crew that climbed Everest and then went on all sorts of sdventure as a travel writer. She also wrote an autobiography about her experiences and faced some attacks and questions.

https://youtu.be/KbK09WxE2Go

YouTube link down when I looked. I'm curious who it is....I read a lot about Everest