[Discussion] Post-Election Safety Concerns

A place to discuss any changes you've had to make due to the changing political climate in the US. Also a place to post news articles backing up your concerns.

Paleocon's statement was predicated on the fact that Trump's election has emboldened bigots to engage in violent acts towards marginalized groups (which has been happening, as cited upthread).

Obviously the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I know a number of black and queer folks who have never owned guns before but are choosing to do so now in an attempt to remain safe - so Paleo's experience here jibes with mine.

So far, there appears to be no corresponding uptick in violence against Caucasians or Trump supporters. (Though again, I'd reiterate my willingness to read any cited evidence of that happening).

I don't think it is racist to point out that the upswing in violence against marginalized groups is leading some members of those groups to purchase firearms.

I would think that if there is any reason for a black male to feel unsafe in Random Negative Racial Stereotype's America it is because his antics, supporters, and rhetoric have created distrust and fear based on violent black activity. There are more than a few white folks I know that carry legal guns now because of it.

Both statements are racist. I feel like I have made a clear strong case. Others are welcome to their own opinions. I don't have much more to add so in an attempt to avoid derailing the thread, I'll stop posting for a bit.

Nomad wrote:
I would think that if there is any reason for a black male to feel unsafe in Random Negative Racial Stereotype's America it is because his antics, supporters, and rhetoric have created distrust and fear based on violent black activity. There are more than a few white folks I know that carry legal guns now because of it.

Both statements are racist. I feel like I have made a clear strong case. Others are welcome to their own opinions. I don't have much more to add so in an attempt to avoid derailing the thread, I'll stop posting for a bit.

You might want to go learn about what racism actually is.

The discussion of "racism toward white people" has been had in other threads. I personally disagree with the notion.

Start a new one if anyone want to pursue it. It's off-topic here.

This Republican politician allegedly told a woman 'I no longer have to be PC' before grabbing her crotch

The Sydney Morning Herald wrote:

In an incident that echoes Donald Trump's "p*ssy-grabbing" controversy, a Republican politician has been arrested and charged with sexual assault after an altercation with a woman ended with him grabbing her crotch.

Christopher von Keyserling, a 71-year-old member of the Representative Town Meeting in Connecticut (a form of local government), is accused of insulting and then assaulting a staffer during a disagreement over none other than Donald Trump himself.

According to local media, the arrest warrant alleged von Keyserling responded to the woman's comment that it's "a new world politically" by telling her "I love this new world, I no longer have to be politically correct."

Apparently, there's video evidence, so it's not a he-said/she-said thing.

He's not wrong. All the norms crumbled with Trump's election. This behavior is what his followers validated and what we have to push back against.

Manners and basic etiquette are unfortunately not part of the cherry-picked components of making America great again.

To those going to the women's march, please stay safe, I'm hopeful it goes without incident but with the state of tribalism in America right now it's not hard to imagine it ending very badly. That said to let fear prevent it from happening is also, in some sense, to let the other side win, ick.

The Congressional and political norms crumbled in 2009 when Rep. Joe Wilson shouted "You lie!" at Pres. Obama during his State of the Union speech. That's really an important turning point. It reflects the moment when Congress when from a norm of coming together in spite of differences to hash out important policies, to a norm of complete refusal to cooperate, and an atmosphere where personal dislikes (of Republicans for Obama) began to actually drive policy and politics in the US.

krev82 wrote:

To those going to the women's march, please stay safe, I'm hopeful it goes without incident but with the state of tribalism in America right now it's not hard to imagine it ending very badly. That said to let fear prevent it from happening is also, in some sense, to let the other side win, ick.

As RNG pointed out to me when I told him the same thing a few months back... it's not up to them to stay safe.

It's up to others NOT using violence as a "counterargument" to the women's marchers belief in and exercise of their right to assemble and protest and speak freely.

Robear wrote:

The Congressional and political norms crumbled in 2009 when Rep. Joe Wilson shouted "You lie!" at Pres. Obama during his State of the Union speech. That's really an important turning point. It reflects the moment when Congress when from a norm of coming together in spite of differences to hash out important policies, to a norm of complete refusal to cooperate, and an atmosphere where personal dislikes (of Republicans for Obama) began to actually drive policy and politics in the US.

I don't know. When our congressional history includes things like assault and battery on the floor of the senate, its hard to argue that shouting during a speech is a turning point. I agree that things seem on a decidedly downward trend in the civility department, and not just in government.

Well put Demosthenes/RNG.

Nomad wrote:
Robear wrote:

The Congressional and political norms crumbled in 2009 when Rep. Joe Wilson shouted "You lie!" at Pres. Obama during his State of the Union speech. That's really an important turning point. It reflects the moment when Congress when from a norm of coming together in spite of differences to hash out important policies, to a norm of complete refusal to cooperate, and an atmosphere where personal dislikes (of Republicans for Obama) began to actually drive policy and politics in the US.

I don't know. When our congressional history includes things like assault and battery on the floor of the senate, its hard to argue that shouting during a speech is a turning point. I agree that things seem on a decidedly downward trend in the civility department, and not just in government.

I mean, you're not wrong here, but that assault and battery was a long time ago and I think most of us believed that the GOP wasn't interested in going down the road to the Civil War.

It didn't exactly go well for Rural America that so many of them represent last time, regardless of which party was which back then.

Malor wrote:

This Republican politician allegedly told a woman 'I no longer have to be PC' before grabbing her crotch

The Sydney Morning Herald wrote:

In an incident that echoes Donald Trump's "p*ssy-grabbing" controversy, a Republican politician has been arrested and charged with sexual assault after an altercation with a woman ended with him grabbing her crotch.

Christopher von Keyserling, a 71-year-old member of the Representative Town Meeting in Connecticut (a form of local government), is accused of insulting and then assaulting a staffer during a disagreement over none other than Donald Trump himself.

According to local media, the arrest warrant alleged von Keyserling responded to the woman's comment that it's "a new world politically" by telling her "I love this new world, I no longer have to be politically correct."

Apparently, there's video evidence, so it's not a he-said/she-said thing.

Saw that over the weekend and was thinking that if there was ever a use for a concealed carry self defense, that was it. Dude should have been gut shot and left to bleed until the EMS got there.

Nomad wrote:

I don't know. When our congressional history includes things like assault and battery on the floor of the senate, its hard to argue that shouting during a speech is a turning point. I agree that things seem on a decidedly downward trend in the civility department, and not just in government.

It coincided, or just preceded, the formal turn of the GOP into simply opposing everything Obama did. It showed that the relationship between the President and Congress had become one based on personal animus, rather than on policy differences which were subject to negotiation. And it created an atmosphere in politics where not just disagreement with ideas, but vilification of the person, was the norm. We literally have not seen this behavior since before the Civil War (although I suspect that Reconstruction, as it failed, might also have been similar in contention).

No one had breached decorum like that since the Presidential addresses to Congress began. And after it, with 87 new Tea Party members, it was quite acceptable to question not only whether the President was legitimate, but whether he was an American at all! The popular pundits on the Right quickly moved to racist imagery and innuendo, and that was echoed in the Tea Party and maintain and amplified by the Trumpists. It seems like a turning point to me, not of itself, but as a symptom of change on the Right. It was the conversion of political rivalry from policies (leaving a basis for negotiation) to personal hatred (which of course negates any idea of cooperation at all). Republicans on the whole literally despised Obama and everything he stood for, and acted accordingly; this is incredibly unusual for modern American politics, a sea change that portended Trump's storm sweeping in.

(This particular data point comes largely from the PBS/Frontline documentary that showed last night and concludes tonight, which used as a basis interviews with around a hundred Obama and Congressional insiders on the change in climate in politics during Obama's term. So it's pretty well informed and very detailed. I just summarized it and fit it into my usual observations on this stuff.)

Robear wrote:
Nomad wrote:

I don't know. When our congressional history includes things like assault and battery on the floor of the senate, its hard to argue that shouting during a speech is a turning point. I agree that things seem on a decidedly downward trend in the civility department, and not just in government.

It coincided, or just preceded, the formal turn of the GOP into simply opposing everything Obama did. It showed that the relationship between the President and Congress had become one based on personal animus, rather than on policy differences which were subject to negotiation. And it created an atmosphere in politics where not just disagreement with ideas, but vilification of the person, was the norm.

To tweak this, it was certainly true by this point that the disagreements were not considered to be about opinions, but about "facts." From the left, I think we arrived at a similar point, where a lot of what the GOP has said this century has been interpreted as lies (or willful misinterpretation, at best). In US politics, those who disagree with us rarely even given the excuse of stupidity anymore.