Discussion of Russian influence and propaganda, and their effects on the US and the world today and tomorrow.
Discussion of evidence about the influence of Russian propaganda efforts in the recent US election. This issue will be around for a while, so I figured we should have a place for the occasional article and discussion.
Putin is pursuing large strategic goals: recognition of the annexation of Crimea and international acceptance of foreign aggression to change state borders; Russian control of Ukraine; weakening or even dissolution of the European Union and NATO; restoration of Russia as a great power; and restored dominance over the former Soviet bloc and its environs. In pursuing these aims, Putin is engaged in a disciplined effort to influence democratic politics in the West, including financial and propaganda support for the narrow Brexit victory and for a network of far-right (and pro-Russian) nationalist political parties and groups throughout Europe. Now he has achieved what had to have been his most improbable goal: helping elect a sympathetic U.S. president who wants to form an alliance against terrorism. What will Trump give in exchange? He has already reaffirmed his intention to end support for pro-Western rebels in Syria, which effectively gives Russia a free hand to make President Bashar al-Assad its satrap. The greater danger is Trump’s attitude toward NATO as a “soft” alliance that, like the Western powers in 1939, won’t “die for Danzig.” It would mean the alliance’s end.In his book “Putinism,” Soviet and Russian historian Walter Laqueur describes the varied ideological strains that animate the former KGB agent. The “Russian national idea” that has emerged is to defend Russia, Eurasia and the world from the anti-civilizational corruption of Western liberal democracy. Frighteningly, Putin’s worldview has resonance in the populist and nationalist fixations of Stephen K. Bannon, the president-elect’s senior counselor, whose stated mission is to “destroy” the “establishment” and end the domination of the “donor class.” Bannon’s “closing argument” ad for Trump, redolent of Russian propaganda, described the United States as a corrupt and failing state because of nefarious “global special interests.” It all points to grave danger for democracy and a world order that has kept the peace for 70 years. Is this what America voted for?
A couple of problematic points:
There is no evidence at all of Russian financial support for the Brexit vote - only normal propaganda operations. And this is hardly news - virtually every country operates organizations like this in pursuit of their own agendas, and the American government was certainly not quiet about their preference. Was the American government financially intervening in the Brexit vote?
This argument has two umm ... minor problems: there are no pro-Western rebels left in Syria, and the government in Syria has been a staunch Soviet / Russian ally since 1944.
Let's see, 70 years ago was ... 1946. Even ignoring the Cold War, MAD, and living on the brink of nuclear annihilation, the world has hardly been peaceful since then and much of the violence has been perpetrated by the United States and its allies (and yes, the Russians have certainly committed their fair share of atrocities as well).
I can't help but think that this author would welcome the return of the Commies (sorry, Russians) as the Enemy - we've always been at war with Eastasia. While that might represent an intellectually comfortable niche, it doesn't line up with the modern world reality.
The True Remedy for the Fugitive Slave Bill is a good revolver, a steady hand, and a determination to shoot down any man attempting to kidnap. - Frederick Douglass
You suspect the leader of an organization called "The Institute for Democracy in Eastern Europe" of wishing for the return of the Soviet Union?
He said "has kept the peace", not "totally eradicated conflict". And yes, the rise of democracies has indeed improved the world since it's pre-WWII state. We've had the longest run without a major European or World war in pretty much ever. Changing that balance is almost by definition injecting risk into the system.
There is definitely evidence that Russia is funding far right and separatist parties in Europe. But this goes way beyond propaganda radio broadcasts into, for example, providing a large loan to the National Front in 2014, and keeping UKIP afloat financially during the run-up to Brexit. Unless you've got evidence of the US government loaning millions to UK and European parties, it's not at all the same thing.
Whether there are still FSA affiliates in play has been hotly debated for the last year, and it's not at all clear that they are gone. Reports come in with statements from the FSA periodically. And while Syria was a Russian client, this brings it closer into the fold at a time when the Russians really want to become the regional power sponsor. The Soviets lost Egypt, Lebanon, Iran and other states as clients there since 1944. Their ability to use Assad as a power-projection base to directly affect Middle Eastern affairs was greatly curtailed, until they were invited to put boots on the ground and planes in the air. This represents a large change in the status quo. (Just name the last active Russian ground/air operation in the Middle East...).
I honestly suspect that you've been beating the drum against American interests ("government/business as usual", let's say) that you've lost track of the fact that there are countries out there that would love to make things worse for us, and have largely succeeded. Yes, America needs to improve. But that does not mean that other countries are not capable of being worse than us, on the world stage.
The two sides to every story are true and false, not yours and theirs. Facts are not political; lies are. - Deven Green (Mrs. Betty Bowers)
It kind of falls outside the scope of the discussion but since it' s about Russia influencing, prolly something about the actual influencer country would also be of interest.
Russia's Duma decriminalizes domestic violence. ONE vote was against. One abstained. 368 were for.
I`m Artsy Partsy Gun For Hire
Ultra-conservatives are really pretty bad at this "family values" stuff sometimes.
Words... are a big deal.
Jill Lapore wrote:Editing is one of the great inventions of civilization.
Report states that Gay Men in Chechnya are being rounded up into actual concentration camps.
A follow up to recent reports that over 100 gay men had been rounded up and were essentially missing, with several turning up dead.
In case you've not seen the OFFICIAL response about the accusations from the monster in charge yet...
Also
inactive here until further notice.
Sounds like a human rights atrocity. A job for... Trumpman? Maybe he can bomb Chechnya now...
The two sides to every story are true and false, not yours and theirs. Facts are not political; lies are. - Deven Green (Mrs. Betty Bowers)
Better evacuate all the local cafeterias in advance.
I wish you guys would stop encouraging him.
EvilHomer3k wrote:You are an evil, evil person.
Baron Of Hell wrote:YOU VILLAIN!
Why would he attack over this? Half the Republican party are probably secretly cheering them on.
Yes. Several Republicans were cheering Putin on for being a "strong leader". One of Putin's "strong leader" characteristics that they apparently celebrate (just look at the anti-Judicial branch rhetoric here) is the ability round up and imprison people you don't agree with. And the Republican party certainly doesn't agree with homosexuality.
Steam
Blizzard: Yonder#11589