[Discussion] Feminism and social justice, plus FAQ!

This thread is for discussing feminist issues--from the narrow meaning (a movement for social justice in terms of gender equality) to the broader meaning (a movement for social justice, period), and from the scope of issues in gaming and geek culture to kyriarchy in general.

Basic questions are allowed here for now, we will split out a Q&A thread should it become necessary.

LarryC wrote:

MGTOW and other pundits like to compare themselves to herbivore men from Japan. It'd be interesting to see what you folks have to say about that. I think the comparison doesn't fly but it would be interesting to hear other opinions.

Herbivore men are a movement that also rejects male norms, which is fairly radical in a strongly ordered and patriarchal society like Japan.

To what purpose and how do they reject those norms?

MGTOW generally are trying to be the manliest men ever. Usually mixed in with some super "libertarian" off the grid type sh*t, trying to be Bear Grylls, but doing so for realsies (at least in their head while they're online talking about it).

MGTOW wrote:

Feminists hate us because we won’t fight them. And women hate us because we won’t give them what they want.

Their self-centeredness really is amazing. Pretty much every feminist or woman I've ever seen talk about them has been like "*tosses popcorn in the air and catches it in their mouth* No, you go right ahead with... whatever the hell that is. We're fine over here."

Hypatian wrote:
MGTOW wrote:

Feminists hate us because we won’t fight them. And women hate us because we won’t give them what they want.

Their self-centeredness really is amazing. Pretty much every feminist or woman I've ever seen talk about them has been like "*tosses popcorn in the air and catches it in their mouth* No, you go right ahead with... whatever the hell that is. We're fine over here."

Right? They wear this supposed hatred as a badge of honor, but turns out the badge fell off the Emporer's new outfit.

pyxistyx wrote:

They all look in the mirror and think they see Batman staring back at them? Right?

They don't. I wouldn't go in their homes if you paid me.

Demosthenes wrote:

MGTOW, somehow topping even MRAs in stupidity and arrogance when it comes to gender relations.

Yeah but the theme song is pretty dope.

Damn women, shackin up's all they wanna do.

Demosthenes wrote:
LarryC wrote:

MGTOW and other pundits like to compare themselves to herbivore men from Japan. It'd be interesting to see what you folks have to say about that. I think the comparison doesn't fly but it would be interesting to hear other opinions.

Herbivore men are a movement that also rejects male norms, which is fairly radical in a strongly ordered and patriarchal society like Japan.

To what purpose and how do they reject those norms?

MGTOW generally are trying to be the manliest men ever. Usually mixed in with some super "libertarian" off the grid type sh*t, trying to be Bear Grylls, but doing so for realsies (at least in their head while they're online talking about it).

Very basically, MGTOWs appear to blame their troubles on feminism. Herbivore men take square aim at their male forbears and the toxic patriarchal norms being thrust upon them. They don't hate women. They just don't want romantic and sexual involvements because it entails a bunch of toxic expectations they would rather not inherit.

Yeah, from what I've heard the apparent similarities between MGTOWs and Herbivore men is a case of the exact opposite motivation leading to a superficial similarity. They aren't really comparable.

This seems like the best thread for this...

N.Y. Giants Keep Josh Brown Out Of Next Game After New Abuse Revelations

New York Giants kicker Josh Brown won’t be traveling with the team for Sunday’s game against the Los Angeles Rams in London, a decision related to the NFL’s move to re-open an investigation into a domestic violence incident in May 2015.

Giants president and co-owner John Mara said Thursday in a radio interview with WFAN that the Giants are considering placing Brown on the commissioner’s exempt list. Mara also said the Giants won’t wait for the NFL to make a decision.

Mara said the Giants were aware of the abusive relationship, including the need for security to protect Brown’s ex-wife from the kicker at the Pro Bowl.

“He certainly admitted to us that he abused his wife in the past,” Mara said. “What’s a little unclear is the extent of that.”

My thoughts are what should happen to him? Should he lose his job? Part of me thinks yes, but that makes me wonder what job should he be allowed to keep then? Are we saying some jobs are ok for abusers to work at but others are not? Should punishment for crimes extend to the workplace?

I am torn.

farley3k wrote:

This seems like the best thread for this...

N.Y. Giants Keep Josh Brown Out Of Next Game After New Abuse Revelations

New York Giants kicker Josh Brown won’t be traveling with the team for Sunday’s game against the Los Angeles Rams in London, a decision related to the NFL’s move to re-open an investigation into a domestic violence incident in May 2015.

Giants president and co-owner John Mara said Thursday in a radio interview with WFAN that the Giants are considering placing Brown on the commissioner’s exempt list. Mara also said the Giants won’t wait for the NFL to make a decision.

Mara said the Giants were aware of the abusive relationship, including the need for security to protect Brown’s ex-wife from the kicker at the Pro Bowl.

“He certainly admitted to us that he abused his wife in the past,” Mara said. “What’s a little unclear is the extent of that.”

My thoughts are what should happen to him? Should he lose his job? Part of me thinks yes, but that makes me wonder what job should he be allowed to keep then? Are we saying some jobs are ok for abusers to work at but others are not? Should punishment for crimes extend to the workplace?

I am torn.

Closest ethical conclusion I can come to tells me there's a difference from employing a person who has been an abuser in the past and employing a person who abused while under your employ.

If your workplace is known for being a fetid swamp that breeds abusers of women like mosquitoes then turns a blind eye to their actions – and if you're serious about changing that – then yes punishment should extend to the workplace.

Men Going Their Own Way is a misnomer, of course. A lot of them are angry teenagers, not quite men, and they never actually go anywhere. They're far too busy writing angry screeds against women on internet forums.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Men Going Their Own Way is a misnomer, of course. A lot of them are angry teenagers, not quite men, and they never actually go anywhere. They're far too busy writing angry screeds against women on internet forums.

Usually coinciding with when they're a few Good Boy Points short of some tendies.

Jolly Bill wrote:
farley3k wrote:

This seems like the best thread for this...

N.Y. Giants Keep Josh Brown Out Of Next Game After New Abuse Revelations

New York Giants kicker Josh Brown won’t be traveling with the team for Sunday’s game against the Los Angeles Rams in London, a decision related to the NFL’s move to re-open an investigation into a domestic violence incident in May 2015.

Giants president and co-owner John Mara said Thursday in a radio interview with WFAN that the Giants are considering placing Brown on the commissioner’s exempt list. Mara also said the Giants won’t wait for the NFL to make a decision.

Mara said the Giants were aware of the abusive relationship, including the need for security to protect Brown’s ex-wife from the kicker at the Pro Bowl.

“He certainly admitted to us that he abused his wife in the past,” Mara said. “What’s a little unclear is the extent of that.”

My thoughts are what should happen to him? Should he lose his job? Part of me thinks yes, but that makes me wonder what job should he be allowed to keep then? Are we saying some jobs are ok for abusers to work at but others are not? Should punishment for crimes extend to the workplace?

I am torn.

Closest ethical conclusion I can come to tells me there's a difference from employing a person who has been an abuser in the past and employing a person who abused while under your employ.

If your company's income stream is built around people paying to watch and associate themselves with you, then being a reprobate can probably factor in.

Bonus_Eruptus wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Men Going Their Own Way is a misnomer, of course. A lot of them are angry teenagers, not quite men, and they never actually go anywhere. They're far too busy writing angry screeds against women on internet forums.

Usually coinciding with when they're a few Good Boy Points short of some tendies.

I hate that meme because I love chicken tenders.

*Legion* wrote:
Bonus_Eruptus wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Men Going Their Own Way is a misnomer, of course. A lot of them are angry teenagers, not quite men, and they never actually go anywhere. They're far too busy writing angry screeds against women on internet forums.

Usually coinciding with when they're a few Good Boy Points short of some tendies.

I hate that meme because I love chicken tenders.

We know.

kaostheory wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
Bonus_Eruptus wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Men Going Their Own Way is a misnomer, of course. A lot of them are angry teenagers, not quite men, and they never actually go anywhere. They're far too busy writing angry screeds against women on internet forums.

Usually coinciding with when they're a few Good Boy Points short of some tendies.

I hate that meme because I love chicken tenders.

We know.

Man when are they gonna bring that back?

*Legion* wrote:
kaostheory wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
Bonus_Eruptus wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Men Going Their Own Way is a misnomer, of course. A lot of them are angry teenagers, not quite men, and they never actually go anywhere. They're far too busy writing angry screeds against women on internet forums.

Usually coinciding with when they're a few Good Boy Points short of some tendies.

I hate that meme because I love chicken tenders.

We know.

Man when are they gonna bring that back?

Patience. They did bring back Wendy's taco salad recently...

Spoiler:

...after 20 years.

Rat Boy wrote:

Patience. They did bring back Wendy's taco salad recently...

Spoiler:

...after 20 years.

IMAGE(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5a/Seymourstill.JPG/200px-Seymourstill.JPG)

OK, I will stop derailing the feminist thread now. I didn't mean to, I just kinda... went my own way.

Do we have a thread for general media criticism through a feminist lens? I just came across Anime Feminist. It's got the explicit goal of starting a discussion that the fandom previously didn't have a space to allow. (Here's an interview with the site's founder.)

I think it would be fine to discuss that here, or in a new thread here or in Everything Else. There's also Tropes vs the Recently Released which has a more video game focus--but people might be okay if you asked to talk about some other kinds of geeky media in that thread.

Awesome. Loved it.

The Weird Familiary of 100 Year Old Feminism Memes

Of course the "weird" familiarity isn't weird at all. It's a reminder that the arguments trotted out against feminism today are the same old dusty corpses from the days before women had the vote.

You heard it over your childhood Thanksgiving table from your crazy uncle first!

Demosthenes wrote:

Awesome. Loved it.

Consider signing up for Tor's newsletter. I don't read every article but I tend to enjoy the ones I do.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Consider signing up for Tor's newsletter. I don't read every article but I tend to enjoy the ones I do.

Just +1ing this recommendation seemed inadequate. Subscriber since 2008.

And now McCrory, or one of the PACs supporting him, have released a horrible fear-based commercial about sexual predators in bathrooms, showing a little girl going into a stall, and a male coming from the next stall over and charging into hers. It claims that this is Roy Cooper's plan for bathrooms. Good grief.

NC GOP political ads have been godawful for these past two months. "Roy Cooper doesn't care about rape victims! Deborah Ross protects child molesters and flag burners!"

I've read some reports that women's turnout is up in a lot of places this election and they are breaking more heavily for Clinton than they have for Democrats in the past.

I feel like we've gotten a million thinkpieces about how white men in the midwest are voting for Trump because of economic circumstances yet very little about the women's vote apart from "oh obviously women don't like Trump because he's a misogynist." I'd be interested in more articles about what women want politically other than "not a misogynist" particularly since they're over half the electorate in many places. When women are over half the electorate, calling women's issues niche or special interests is ridiculous, yet here we are in the year 2016 and little has changed.

(A very similar story can be told about Latinx turnout and the media treating them all as single-issue voters on the topic of immigration instead of actually doing in-depth research on what they care about.)

Party affiliation trumps religion (and thus moral judgements). When religious authorities challenge right-wing doctrine which is part of what identifies believers, they change their opinion of the religious leaders, instead of changing their opinion on the doctrine...