[Discussion] Talk about tonight's debate - Sunday nights alright for a fight

discussion of the town hall style debate Sunday night

*Apologies to Elton John but the title was just too good to pass up.

I appreciate the use of a football career to demarcate time.

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Thinking about it more, and observing the pundit's reactions, I realized that I missed something significant: Trump's plans to jail Hillary lost him whatever institutional support he had left. I missed it because he's implied it before and the general public doesn't care. But the people in office absolutely do care: they don't want the threat of arrest hanging over them and they (mostly) understand that setting that precedent would break the peaceful transfer of power that's the primary reason why our democracy still operates.

Gerald Ford pardoned Nixon. He said it was time for the country to put the whole thing behind us. Some people are still upset about that, but it did work.

It doesn't matter now what the polls say about Trump's support. As a survival choice, the Republicans in office have a very strong self-interest in abandoning him completely. I predict that this accelerates the bleeding of his endorsements.

The tactic of intentionally maneuvering such that your opponent is in the background (and thus every awkward moment of his recorded) while answering questions was mastered by none other than Bill Clinton. HRC no doubt had a good tutor.

Just one more reason that debate prep is not for losses.

JC wrote:

Bob Schieffer wins the debate! His commentary at the end was brilliant. Basically, "How has it come to this?" Hopefully it makes it to you tube.

Found it!

THAT's what he meant! Grab them by the giant bow around their neck! See, it's not sexual assault at all! Grabbing someone by the throat is just REGULAR assault! So much better!

Holy... I've been watching the first thirty minutes and this is so much worse than the first debate. Trump bringing Bill Clinton into the discussion? Attacking each other on such personal levels that have nothing to do with their politics? Trump threatening Hillary Clinton with jail? None of them really answering the first question, but instead rehashing the same points that were talked about in the first debate (ISIS, the emails)? Trump interrupting her all the time? This is uglier than the worst soap opera I've seen.

Brainsmith wrote:

Holy... I've been watching the first thirty minutes and this is so much worse than the first debate. Trump bringing Bill Clinton into the discussion? Attacking each other on such personal levels that have nothing to do with their politics? Trump threatening Hillary Clinton with jail? None of them really answering the first question, but instead rehashing the same points that were talked about in the first debate (ISIS, the emails)? Trump interrupting her all the time? This is uglier than the worst soap opera I've seen.

Yet the common consensus seems to be that Trump did alright in this debate. I do think he tightens up a bit in the last half, so maybe some of it is just people remember the later parts better.

One of the reasonable people at my work was saying that it did seem like the moderators were less fair to Trump. I think that a lot of people are going to miss that Trump tried to get the last word literally every time, so being shot down a lot was reasonable. Additionally, once or twice Clinton got more than 2 minutes to speak without being stopped (remember the time Trump was pointing from the clock to Clinton while glaring meaningfully at the moderators), it's typical in these sorts of things to allow people a bit more time if their opponent just went over, but if you don't know that and aren't specifically watching for that sort of thing Trump's version sounds pretty appealing.

Yup, Trump was routinely breaking the rules, but then trying to enforce the rules on his opponent and getting huffy when they didn't, speaking to either a massive lack of self-awareness or just a desire to keep the deck stacked in his own favor... both super Presidential obviously... making me wonder how anyone except someone else from a privileged position could say he won that at all.

Yonder wrote:

One of the reasonable people at my work was saying that it did seem like the moderators were less fair to Trump.

I don't buy this argument at all. Is it really "less fair" to call someone out on their complete and utter bullsh*t? We cannot lessen the bar on this or we get people like... well... Trump.

For someone who "just wins" all the time, he sure spends a lot of his time playing the victim.

JC wrote:
Yonder wrote:

One of the reasonable people at my work was saying that it did seem like the moderators were less fair to Trump.

I don't buy this argument at all. Is it really "less fair" to call someone out on their complete and utter bullsh*t? We cannot lessen the bar on this or we get people like... well... Trump.

I think it's understandable given that the moderators (also understandably, in the interest of saving time) didn't defend themselves from his accusations. Many times they did say variations of "don't interrupt her, she didn't interrupt you" but that's the only time that specifically gave him a rationale for their rules that he act like a polite human being. Apparently people don't pay enough attention to this sort of thing and the moderators have to be very literal like that. Anderson Cooper needs to actually say "Trump, we are moving on to the next question, this time Clinton gets the last word, and then next time you'll get to talk last, and then Clinton will get to talk last, you can't get the last word everytime, we have to share".

In the absence of small words and simple explanations like that I think that a lot of people assume that the person calling out the other people is right, if they weren't they'd defend themselves, right?

Yonder wrote:

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"I didn't touch that chair at all. It's a lie."

JC wrote:
Yonder wrote:

One of the reasonable people at my work was saying that it did seem like the moderators were less fair to Trump.

I don't buy this argument at all. Is it really "less fair" to call someone out on their complete and utter bullsh*t? We cannot lessen the bar on this or we get people like... well... Trump.

I think there's a difference between "actually fair" and "feels fair". One reason why Trump-style debate tactics can work on the immediate audience is that humans have a lot of cognitive biases that fall prey to this. Clinton getting to run on a bit feels like she's doing the same thing he does, even as he interrupts way more frequently and blatantly. The hard part of taking the high road is that you get dinged for even minor flaws. (And that's leaving out the unconscious sexism that undoubtedly affects my perception.)

There's probably a cute intern under that desk, nbd.

Even with all the complaining about fairness, the actual numbers on the clock show that Trump spoke for an extra minute. Also turns out that he interrupted Clinton way more frequently, and spoke over the moderator more often too. But hey, the deck's definitely stacked against him.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

There's probably a cute intern under that desk, nbd.

Gods I wish we didn't have a Clinton running. Another 8 years of this bullsh*t...

Chaz wrote:

Even with all the complaining about fairness, the actual numbers on the clock show that Trump spoke for an extra minute. Also turns out that he interrupted Clinton way more frequently, and spoke over the moderator more often too. But hey, the deck's definitely stacked against him.

Anderson Cooper playing kindergarten teacher "She didn't interrupt you. please let her speak"

Finally caught up to the end of the world party.

The CNN moderator was actually trying to get an answer from Trump in the beginning :O What a crazy thing!

Hillary answers Trumps Tape defense, about respecting each other. Trump responded "it is just words", which seems to fit perfectly how he view his own words. He continuously fails to grasp that words can hurt, words can change things, words can fuel hate in others.

Trump threatening to prosecute (and jail!) his opponent if he wins... I knew he was a fascist, but he is moving faster than I had expected.

The whole email segment, wow, Trump certainly seemed close to losing his great temperament.

Health care. We will have so much competition that everything will magically fix itself. Okay... He litteraly said nothing meaningful when trying to explain his plan.

Muslims. What a classic, if one muslim does something bad, lets blame the other muslims for not reporting him/her.

Comparing GDP growth between China and US. Facepalm.

Trump rarely manage to answer a question. It takes 3 seconds before he switch to Hillary bashing. Especially on foreign policy.
Sneak attacks... is he even trying to be serious (kinda thought the whole mass murdering drone strikes were all about sneak attacks). Good to hear the moderator argue against it.

One of those potentially dangerous questions in the end, "Say something nice about your opponent". Hillary did a decent enough dodge. Likewise a fine answer from Trump.
Though I would have paid good money to see Hillary say "No", drop the mic and leave, if only it wouldn't have hurt her winning chances.

I don't know who won this. In terms of political substance, Trump might just as well have not shown up, but his aggressive style probably works for a lot of people.
Of course a debate with no clear winner or loser is not what Trump seem to need right now.

Shadout wrote:

Muslims. What a classic, if one muslim does something bad, lets blame the other muslims for not stopping him/her.

Moustafa Bayoumi wrote:

I'm a Muslim, and I would like to report a crazy man threatening a woman on a stage in Missouri. #debate

sometimesdee wrote:
Shadout wrote:

Muslims. What a classic, if one muslim does something bad, lets blame the other muslims for not stopping him/her.

Moustafa Bayoumi wrote:

I'm a Muslim, and I would like to report a crazy man threatening a woman on a stage in Missouri. #debate

I recommend everyone follow Hend Amry on twitter.

Pretty sure that Nixon got impeached and run out of Washington for playing Third World dictator with the justice department. Sounds like Trump wants to bring that back.

Is that burned cheetos I smell?

Judging by his promoted Tweet, Donald seems to be convinced he won. For any other candidate I'd suspect that he was just talking up his performance, but with him I'm pretty sure he actually means it.

For reference, it's got a video clip that ends with his "Because you'd be in jail" line.

Gremlin wrote:

Judging by his promoted Tweet, Donald seems to be convinced he won. For any other candidate I'd suspect that he was just talking up his performance, but with him I'm pretty sure he actually means it.

For reference, it's got a video clip that ends with his "Because you'd be in jail" line.

He even manages to fluff this easy line. He wants to put Clinton in prison, not jail.

I think very few Americans realize that there might be a distinction between the two, or what it is. We use "jail" and "prison" pretty interchangeably.

Gremlin wrote:

Judging by his promoted Tweet, Donald seems to be convinced he won. For any other candidate I'd suspect that he was just talking up his performance, but with him I'm pretty sure he actually means it.

I'm more than happy for him to be convinced he's won. The least dangerous fighter is the one that goes into the 12th round thinking he's way up on the scorecards and cruises to the end. The much more dangerous fighter is the one that knows he's down in the 12th and only a knockout can win.

The less in touch Donald Trump is with the reality of his situation, the better for us all.