Gamers that fight - Martial Arts catch-all

I totally dig that people are giving recommendations for kids to do things other than martial arts for athletics, those activities are great. But he did ask about martial arts. I think it's worth pointing out that martial arts training has many benefits for kids as well. Particularly with a school that has kids classes and a teacher who is great with kids, and maybe a style that works for a child's abilities. I know I wish I had started martial arts training much earlier than I did.

Paleocon wrote:

I think his judgement may be a bit colored by the Texas sharpshooter phenom. And by that I mean that his sample size for testing is exactly one -- himself.

I think you missed the nature of the study. He's not basing it on himself. He's looking objectively at outcomes of thousands of videos of policemen and -women in real world encounters, and noting the differences in outcomes when the officer attempts to subdue with grappling as opposed to other approaches.

He's not saying "Oh, I could handle this *this* way", he's saying "In this batch of 100 violent encounters, 30% of injuries to officers occurred when avoiding grappling, and 70% occurred when grappling". Stuff like that. That's why I trust his assessment.

I think also the professionalism of his department counts for something...

I'm a little confused about what's being argued here with that appeal to authority.

Is the argument that police officers shouldn't take violent confrontations to the ground because they may lose their weapon? I totally agree. Not a single jiujitsu fighter with any sense will suggest that.

Is the argument that police officers ought to box their perps? That's just absurd and I'll assume that's not something you're suggest.

Is the argument that boxing is a better style to study than jiujitsu to learn how to maintain distance against a closing opponent intent to grabbing you and be able to create distance if necessary? That is factually incorrect based on well understood training methods of both styles.

If there's anything that those videos are telling me is that police officers need MORE training in grappling, not less, based on their success rate in immobilizing a perp.

ranalin wrote:

I had Ishinryu training as a kid, and also took 3 years in Inayan Eskrima.

The whole point of the Filipino style was to teach villagers quickly with what was able to work with whatever was at hand even if it was just your hand. So the core of it is based on reacting to angles. You learn counters to incoming attacks based on the angle of attack. So regardless of whats coming at you, knife, sword, hand it only takes small adjustments to counter. There's 3 primary styles within Inayan which are Serrada, Largo Mano, Kadena de Mano.

They tend help translate or cover the distances of a fight. Largo Mano which translates to Long Hand tends to focus on long distances and the use of Kampilan. Kadena de Mano translates to Chain of Hands and tends to be very up close with empty hands or knife. Serrada, which is most likely what you're seeing as *interrupting* translates to 'To Close'. Generally used with espada y daga (sword/knife).

Actually there's a lot of joint locks, pressure points, and nerve strikes involved across the board in the Inayan system, but Dumog the grappling side of things is based off manipulating control points like the hips and neck to be able to do joint locks. Obviously because of MMA's popularity becoming highlighted more and more.

Lot of the more grittier styles of fighting these days shown in the movies is a form of Filipino fighting styles. The typical two stick/sword back and forth you see in movies are just sinawalis which are pattern exercises. The edgier stuff like what you see in the Bourne Identity and that type is a form of Serrada, and the knife drill and work done with the knife in True Detective 2 is similar to a Kadena de Mano drill.

Granted there's tons of variations split across Arnis, Kali, and Eskrima. Still at their core is their ability to work off of angles.

I like the reliance on angles and joint locks. Wing Chun also uses angles, but has no grapples or jointlocks, so it seems like Filipino styles would complement my skillset very nicely. Thanks for explaining this, it's made me very interested in Kadena de Mano.

Maverickz wrote:

Is the argument that police officers shouldn't take violent confrontations to the ground because they may lose their weapon? I totally agree. Not a single jiujitsu fighter with any sense will suggest that.

Primarily this, combined with the insight that with more people training MMA, attempting a takedown or lock has a better chance of putting the officer into an extended struggle, rather than a quick submission.

I kind of thought it was interesting that police departments actually do assess their training methods each year, and modify them accordingly. I also thought it was interesting that while the MMA stuff came into police vogue in the 90's, now it's going out again.

Robear wrote:
Maverickz wrote:

Is the argument that police officers shouldn't take violent confrontations to the ground because they may lose their weapon? I totally agree. Not a single jiujitsu fighter with any sense will suggest that.

Primarily this, combined with the insight that with more people training MMA, attempting a takedown or lock has a better chance of putting the officer into an extended struggle, rather than a quick submission.

I kind of thought it was interesting that police departments actually do assess their training methods each year, and modify them accordingly. I also thought it was interesting that while the MMA stuff came into police vogue in the 90's, now it's going out again.

The cops in my city usually learn Wing Chun and Jiu-Jitsu. My sifu is one of the guy who trains them in Wing Chun, and another guy teaches them japanese Jiu-jitsu. The Jiu-Jitsu is definitely losing ground to Wing Chun, though, which seems to reinforce your statement on MMA. This is, of course, an anecdotal account, and I'm not around for even 0.5% of police confrontations, so I have no actual data to back it up. I just find it interesting.

Rise, thread, and walk again!

I just completed my first full week of BJJ and still feel like I am drowning in 4" of water. I am, however, enjoying being a rank beginner in ground fighting as everything is still cool and exciting.

At what point does it start making sense?

Paleocon wrote:

...feel like I am drowning in 4" of water.... At what point does it start making sense?

When they stop making you train in the kiddie pool...

Seriously, probably somewhere around 100-150 classes in, some of the stuff will become automatic. You'll *think* it's happening earlier, but it's not.

Paleocon wrote:

Rise, thread, and walk again!

I just completed my first full week of BJJ and still feel like I am drowning in 4" of water. I am, however, enjoying being a rank beginner in ground fighting as everything is still cool and exciting.

At what point does it start making sense?

I've been at it for 13 years and it's still confounding at times. But around the year mark is when pieces start coming together. What parts don't make sense right now?

I am a rank beginner with a good deal of standup experience, so I am pretty good at recognizing stuff when I see it, but am having a hard time translating it in my head to how it should "feel". Not used to having my limbs be my eyes.

Paleocon wrote:

Rise, thread, and walk again!

I just completed my first full week of BJJ and still feel like I am drowning in 4" of water. I am, however, enjoying being a rank beginner in ground fighting as everything is still cool and exciting.

At what point does it start making sense?

If you haven't already, You may be interested in looking into the Triangle Kung-Fu Arnis Academy. During the Kung-Fu classes, the Head Sifu Dave Ng, teaches Si-Lum Kung Fu, Modern Arnis (which I really enjoyed) and Chin Na (sp? wrestling). Had it not been the school my ex-fiance got me involved in, I would have stayed. Sifu has direct ties to the some of the most respected Arnis masters in the Philippines and seeing them in person will blow your mind. It should come as no surprise that with this school you'll also be learning a bit of history along with your forms.

While not really for fighting, I also studied Kyudo (Japanese Archery) at Meishin Kyudojo for a while. The highest non-japanese sensi lives outside the Raleigh area. He and his wife hold the highest Black Belt Dons outside of Japan. I got to the point where I could test for my first belt, but never went further. There is some serious cash to be invested in those bows. Very traditional and zen. I did manage to match my will to the flight of the arrow a few times, hitting the target. It was a very beautiful, in the moment, meditative experience for me. I still do some of the breathing exercises from time to time.

At the beginning of the year, we agreed to allow our daughter to start taking Tae Kwon Do. We we're expecting to get pulled into it ourselves, but it happened, so we're doing adult and family classes. The thing I learned rather early on is that Tae Kwon Do translates more to a sport to me, as opposed to being a hard martial art. I'm hoping that changes some as we go forward. For right now, I get a great workout, we spend time with our daughter, the school participates in tournaments, and they do teach sparing, but it is of the Olympic Style. Our goal was to get our daughter moving and that's happening, so we're good on that for now. Besides, I need to get into better shape before I start worrying too much about the deeper meaning of sparing.

Paleocon wrote:

I am a rank beginner with a good deal of standup experience, so I am pretty good at recognizing stuff when I see it, but am having a hard time translating it in my head to how it should "feel". Not used to having my limbs be my eyes.

That sounds like muscle memory is still not there, and the only real fix as I'm sure you know, is just mat time. What I tell brand new beginners in grappling is to work on getting comfortable in the guard (i.e. on your back), regaining guard from bad positions, as well as working for the mount (i.e. passing guard). Trying to get any submissions at this point is an exercise in frustration. Focusing on getting and maintaining guard or mount is the most productive thing to work on. Everything else come with mat time and osmosis.

RedJen wrote:

At the beginning of the year, we agreed to allow our daughter to start taking Tae Kwon Do. We we're expecting to get pulled into it ourselves, but it happened, so we're doing adult and family classes. The thing I learned rather early on is that Tae Kwon Do translates more to a sport to me, as opposed to being a hard martial art. I'm hoping that changes some as we go forward. For right now, I get a great workout, we spend time with our daughter, the school participates in tournaments, and they do teach sparing, but it is of the Olympic Style. Our goal was to get our daughter moving and that's happening, so we're good on that for now. Besides, I need to get into better shape before I start worrying too much about the deeper meaning of sparing.

Olympic TKD is all sport at this point. You're going to have a hard time finding any TKD school that isn't either Olympic TKD or forms heavy "contemporary dance"/reenactment schools. I was heavy into TKD when the big shift happened, all the schools that were into real fighting died off because there was no money to be had in it. But for what you're looking for it's ideal. Most of the super athletic TKD guys I've met have come from Olympic style.

EDIT: As for Sil-lum kung fu, Sil-lum is Chinese for Shaolin. Which these days is mostly modern wushu dressed up in monk outfits. You can thank the Communist Party for that sleight of hand.

I have studied traditional Kung Fu in the past and though I appreciate it for what it is, I find it too limiting for me.

I actually prefer to stay away from traditional schools because they tend to get "siloed" into particular ways of thinking. Part of that has to do with the default mentality of protecting their arcane knowledge and/or expressing their uniqueness as a "traditional" style. And as far as I am concerned, any martial skill that doesn't adjust and evolve might as well be frozen in amber.

One of the things I love most about BJJ and my background in MT and Kali/Silat is that they all emphasize play and competition as laboratories for experimentation. If you manage a submission in BJJ competition, it really doesn't matter if it followed a traditional form or not. And the introduction of wrestling and other arts into BJJ competition has continued to allow it to evolve.

That sounds like muscle memory is still not there, and the only real fix as I'm sure you know, is just mat time. What I tell brand new beginners in grappling is to work on getting comfortable in the guard (i.e. on your back), regaining guard from bad positions, as well as working for the mount (i.e. passing guard). Trying to get any submissions at this point is an exercise in frustration. Focusing on getting and maintaining guard or mount is the most productive thing to work on. Everything else come with mat time and osmosis.

Yeah. I am aware that there are simply no shortcuts to the reps. The only thing I can do is to make sure that I pay enough attention to make sure that the reps I put in are correct reps. Practice only makes habit. Perfect practice makes perfect.

10,000 hours of directed practice.

And don't fall for that berimbolo silliness!

This looks like an interesting thread to lurk! I've practiced one form or another of aikido on and off for the past...geeze, almost 20 years now. The place I'm training now (in Dallas) is throwing (ha) some judo in there as well, since it's essentially the same principles at work on at a different distance. Thanks to the off portions I still consider myself a beginner. Sounds like this thread is pretty far outside my experience but now I can follow along!

Paleocon wrote:

I am a rank beginner with a good deal of standup experience, so I am pretty good at recognizing stuff when I see it, but am having a hard time translating it in my head to how it should "feel". Not used to having my limbs be my eyes.

I've not done a lot of ground-work (and I can't speak to BJJ specifically) but a lot of what we work on is reading an opponent through points of connection (typically hands) and using that information to defeat their intent. With ground-work you mostly have more points of connection and more information to process, not to mention a very different set of options for moving. That all sounds pretty obvious as I type it...call me over-excited about being back on the mat for the first time in several years (just this past week, actually).

Just started second week. Starting to get the sensitivity on the mat. Am actually able to relax and go slow with upper belts. Lower belts, however, seem to dictate a faster and stronger pace than I would prefer. I feel like I need to resist just to protect joints with lower belts I don't trust at speed.

Blue belts. The most dangerous prey.

This school apparently advances very slowly so the blues were generally pretty good about that. it was the whites that I had issues with. The general rule in this school is that it takes roughly 300 hours of instruction to get to blue and though it isn't a hard and fast rule, it generally works out about that way. It is also not a meathead gym so there is a HUGE emphasis on safe play.

I have known folks who have primarily studied at "fighter" schools where their main goal is to get folks ready for matches and they tend to go a lot harder than I, personally, think is responsible. I purposely picked this one because it is way lower key.

It really depends on the person. I'm a Black Belt in TKD and have been doing it on and off for around 10 years now. I now do weapons (Bo, Nunchaku and Arnis) but found that if we were to go against the lower belts, I'd typically hold back and give them a chance at practicing their techniques. While some will appreciate this and realize I'm not about to drop them, others seem to go super hard like they're trying to prove something.

But then the more experience you get, the more you realise that it's about practicing the form and techniques rather than trying to prove to everyone that you are stronger or faster etc. The lower belts don't have that understanding yet (typically).

To be honest, I've never really liked the sparring element as it feels kinda pointless. I'm holding back because I don't want to hurt my opponent. I have no reason to. If you're training with me then we're trying to get a feel for it, but obviously I have to hold back otherwise the consequences could be quite bad. I once side kicked a guy in the throat and felt really bad about it. I think that's just my upbringing though. But yeah, I'd rather never have to use any of my martial arts in a real world situation. I'm happy to know the form and know that I can protect my family if needed.

My son and I watched a bit of TKD training as we left a rock climbing bday party last weekend. It was a massive dojo compared to where I trained as a teenager, I think they were grading some in one room and practising front kicks in another. He watched for a couple of minutes but got bored pretty fast, might have been worn out from the party.

I'm familiar with form based kempo karate but I'd like to get my son into something closer to the dirty street fighting he is more likely to encounter outside a dojo (my sensei was progressive and also taught Thai kickboxing and BJJ). To my mind there is little point teaching how to gouge eyes or crush throats and sternums (which was no doubt useful on a battlefield), these days it's better to learn how to control space and body motion, then move to simple but effective striking and grappling. I also want him to work on flexibility and balance for his own sake and improve cardio fitness since he has asthma.

Paleocon wrote:

I feel like I need to resist just to protect joints with lower belts I don't trust at speed.

If you don't trust them at speed, tell them to slow down BEFORE you get down on the mat. And make it clear that you're concerned that sloppy motion will mess with your joints.

The problem with jamming stuff with strength is that it works with someone who doesn't have the moves ingrained. As they get better, you'll need more strength to jam a move partway through it. That creates a response by the other player to apply more strength on his side, and *he's* the one with the leverage, by definition. Leverage + strength > strength, every time.

Eventually, if no one makes them aware, they will be good enough with technique to blow through your jamming attempt using speed and muscles, and that's when your first real injury will occur. (As you get more experienced, you'll have tools to avoid this, but you don't now.) Worst case, you'll also be training yourself to stiffen up when someone comes at you, which is the opposite of what you want to do in grappling. (If you've learned to lock an arm to resist, say, a straight rush, and someone converts that into a sideways motion suddenly, without control, bye-bye rotator cuff...).

You *have* to stress trust on the mat, and not get on the ground with knuckleheads. This is not like boxing where you can disengage with a step back. Make it clear that you'll tap out early if you have to and they need to respect that. And if someone is covering for poor technique with speed or strength, call it out and bring an instructor in to instruct them.

You can't beat joint manipulations with muscles, period. All you'll do is notch things up into strength against strength, centered on a joint. That's really, really dangerous. Training beginners in "learn as you go" techniques is great for quick learning, but it trades off the safety of traditional slow-go stepwise technique training for a more dangerous style of learning that demands more attention and self-control.

You can't beat it, but you will absolutely get yourself injured if someone without control manipulates a joint that isn't resisting. I have had it happen and watched it far too often.

It is for that reason that every good grappling gym I have ever seen emphasizes that it is up to the person committing the technique to dictate the amount of force.

...And resistance makes it easier to manipulate an opponent; just not the way they expect... Which is where someone who is concentrating more on "the win" than on technique training will go.

Again, your best bet is not to train your joints to lock up, but to deal with the actual problem - the person you're working with does not have the control to do things in a free play environment. They need to go work simple standing techniques or something until they understand that they have to control themselves.

That, or some schools will take someone like that and turn a black belt loose on them for a workout session. Not sure whether that really works or not.

Bfgp wrote:

My son and I watched a bit of TKD training as we left a rock climbing bday party last weekend. It was a massive dojo compared to where I trained as a teenager, I think they were grading some in one room and practising front kicks in another. He watched for a couple of minutes but got bored pretty fast, might have been worn out from the party.

I'm familiar with form based kempo karate but I'd like to get my son into something closer to the dirty street fighting he is more likely to encounter outside a dojo (my sensei was progressive and also taught Thai kickboxing and BJJ). To my mind there is little point teaching how to gouge eyes or crush throats and sternums (which was no doubt useful on a battlefield), these days it's better to learn how to control space and body motion, then move to simple but effective striking and grappling. I also want him to work on flexibility and balance for his own sake and improve cardio fitness since he has asthma.

There's nothing better for a kid than judo, nothing. Except jiujitsu. Wrestling comes a lot more naturally to kids than punching and kicking anyway.

I feel for the asthma though, I've got that. It's an interesting double edged sword. Due to mine, I don't have the raw athleticism to make it in the sport, so I've had to compensate with efficiency and technique. Which is why I gravitated to jiujitsu in the first place, it's a very cerebral sport that rewards thinking and methodical play.

Paleocon wrote:

This school apparently advances very slowly so the blues were generally pretty good about that. it was the whites that I had issues with. The general rule in this school is that it takes roughly 300 hours of instruction to get to blue and though it isn't a hard and fast rule, it generally works out about that way. It is also not a meathead gym so there is a HUGE emphasis on safe play.

I have known folks who have primarily studied at "fighter" schools where their main goal is to get folks ready for matches and they tend to go a lot harder than I, personally, think is responsible. I purposely picked this one because it is way lower key.

From my experience, there are knuckleheads at every school, even in the most chill ones. You either learn to tap early, not roll with them, or out-technique them. The most dangerous are new blue belts and white belts with wrestling experience. They know enough to hurt themselves or someone else, but not enough to plan for it.

Judo is perfect for kids. I am too old to take those falls anymore.

Robear wrote:

That, or some schools will take someone like that and turn a black belt loose on them for a workout session. Not sure whether that really works or not.

Works on some, not on others. Depends on how much of a knucklehead they are. I was my old instructor's enforcer when I was younger, it really depended on what the new person is there for. If they are there to collect taps, they'll leave soon enough. If they are there to learn, they'll eventually learn. Once we had one stick around and not change his attitude, no one wanted to work with him.

How do you, gently, tell an upper belt that it is time to wash his gi?

Paleocon wrote:

How do you, gently, tell an upper belt that it is time to wash his gi?

Man, that is a weekly topic at the /r/bjj subreddit. I have yet to come up with a good answer.

Here's a better question, has anyone in side control sweated into your eye or mouth yet?

maverickz wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

How do you, gently, tell an upper belt that it is time to wash his gi?

Man, that is a weekly topic at the /r/bjj subreddit. I have yet to come up with a good answer.

Here's a better question, has anyone in side control sweated into your eye or mouth yet? :)

OOHHH yeah. It isn't BJJ until someone has put their hairy, sweaty chest in your mouth.

I used to train with a weird guy who would keep a... let's call it a competition gi, that he never washed. He would wear it for competition to screw with opponents. It was really gross.