domestic terrorism/tragedy: florida nightclub shooting

Nomad wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

Ted Cruz is one of the singly most prominent members of the Republican party, and happily spoke at a conference organized by somehow who advocates death for homosexuals. Could you please tell me how I am supposed to think these two pastors who in the last few days said Orlando was a great thing are on the fringe in some way?

The fact people like Nomad can dismiss people like Cruz as fringe elements is actually kind of how they got into their positions of control.

Or the fact that I'm not a republican and have no say in the party matters could be it as well. I'm not here to defend the GOP.

I didn't say you were and I didn't say you were. I'm not attacking you, I was using you as an example of an average American.

edit: oh, wrong place--thought I was in The Big Gun Control Thread.

Nomad wrote:

Meanwhile Chick-fil-a responds to the massacre by opening on a Sunday and providing free food to anyone who shows up to donate blood.

Chick-fil-a, the corporation owned by homophobes that donated millions and millions of dollars fight marriage equality and demonize the LGBT community, didn't do jack sh*t. Hell, Chick-fil-a corporate HQ didn't even know how many of their Orlando stores were open.

What happened was that two (out of the approximately 17) Orlando-based Chick-fil-a franchises opened their doors and some store employees volunteered their time to help their neighbors.

OG_slinger wrote:
Nomad wrote:

Meanwhile Chick-fil-a responds to the massacre by opening on a Sunday and providing free food to anyone who shows up to donate blood.

Chick-fil-a, the corporation owned by homophobes that donated millions and millions of dollars fight marriage equality and demonize the LGBT community, didn't do jack sh*t. Hell, Chick-fil-a corporate HQ didn't even know how many of their Orlando stores were open.

What happened was that two (out of the approximately 17) Orlando-based Chick-fil-a franchises opened their doors and some store employees volunteered their time to help their neighbors.

But according to your own link they knew very well that some Orlando locations were supporting the blood drive and seemed to have no problem with it. Interesting.

Nomad wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
Nomad wrote:

Meanwhile Chick-fil-a responds to the massacre by opening on a Sunday and providing free food to anyone who shows up to donate blood.

Chick-fil-a, the corporation owned by homophobes that donated millions and millions of dollars fight marriage equality and demonize the LGBT community, didn't do jack sh*t. Hell, Chick-fil-a corporate HQ didn't even know how many of their Orlando stores were open.

What happened was that two (out of the approximately 17) Orlando-based Chick-fil-a franchises opened their doors and some store employees volunteered their time to help their neighbors.

But according to your own link they knew very well that some Orlando locations were supporting the blood drive and seemed to have no problem with it. Interesting.

Call me when they donate a couple dozen million dollars to LGBT rights and support for the lives they helped to deform and attack with "pray the gay away" "therapy" programs.

I didn't see anything about McDonalds or Starbucks out there, but I guess no good deed goes un-criticized.

I like how you are gleefully ignoring all of the homophobic stuff they have done. As if one good deed overrides all of the bad.

If someone killed me and sent my family flowers, that must mean they're alright, huh?

Nomad wrote:

I didn't see anything about McDonalds or Starbucks out there, but I guess no good deed goes un-criticized.

No, every good deed is considered in context, and the number of horrible things Chik-Fil-A has done to homosexuals is far outweighed by the fact a few franchises gave out a few sandwiches for a day. It's a band-aid on a bleeding wound of general crappiness.

I never got the impression in overrides all the bad from what has been said. Just that it is a good thing.

I'll praise the good deeds of the apparently 2 (of 17) franchise owners who did the good deeds, if you can find their names. Being so intent on praising them, I'm sure you can produce them right away. I'm unwilling to attribute their good deeds to the large corporation who clearly needs to do more to make up for their bad deeds than...have two functionaries within their vast organization give away some free sandwiches.

farley3k wrote:

I never got the impression in overrides all the bad from what has been said. Just that it is a good thing.

It is hypocritical and to see people praising them for it while calling them "Loving" and all this other bullsh*t really rankles me. They aren't loving. They don't deserve praise. They are part of creating people like Mateen. And it infuriates me to see them getting all this free publicity from a horrific event that saw the lives of many people in my community stamped out by hate. Hate that stems from sources like Chick-fil-A.

Nomad wrote:

I didn't see anything about McDonalds or Starbucks out there, but I guess no good deed goes un-criticized.

I get that this is a fun thought experiment for you, but their efforts directly affected family and friends (both offline and on). The company is f*cking sh*t for doing that for over a decade, and no, one day doesn't change sh*t especially when it becomes clear that the company "allowed it to happen"/"didn't object". Those franchise owners deserve some praise, the company does not.

Seriously dude, you really don't belong in this thread if you're interested in defending a homophobic company because a couple of franchise owners did something nice.

Nomad wrote:

I didn't see anything about McDonalds or Starbucks out there, but I guess no good deed goes un-criticized.

For (edit: not all!) people here, it's the proverbial-turned-partially-literal Chickensh*tSandwich. No good deed counts until there are no evil deeds--that's no better than advertising a Crap Sandwich, now with 50% Less Crap! It's still not going to get good reviews.

Always try and figure out what paradigm the people you're talking to subscribe to. It'll save you time and effort.

Nomad wrote:

But according to your own link they knew very well that some Orlando locations were supporting the blood drive and seemed to have no problem with it. Interesting.

The article was posted on Monday, Nomad.

Given the company's famous Sunday policy it's virtually certain that no one at Chick-fil-a corporate was around to formally condone or condemn the actions of one or two Orlando franchises. And that's if those franchise owners even bothered to ask corporate for permission in the first place.

When Chick-fil-a corporate was asked about it after the fact they were smart enough to not raise a stink because doing so would make them out to be complete monsters.

And by doing so they've reaped a wonderful PR coup. Chick-fil-a has convinced you--and likely many others--that the entire corporation did something good for the LGBT community when the company actually didn't do a goddamned thing (except passively take credit for the good deeds of one or two of its franchisees).

The owner(s) of the two local Chick-fil-a franchises should rightly be praised for their charity. But Chick-fil-a the company still needs to atone for what it did to the LGBT community.

Nomad wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
Nomad wrote:

Meanwhile Chick-fil-a responds to the massacre by opening on a Sunday and providing free food to anyone who shows up to donate blood.

Chick-fil-a, the corporation owned by homophobes that donated millions and millions of dollars fight marriage equality and demonize the LGBT community, didn't do jack sh*t. Hell, Chick-fil-a corporate HQ didn't even know how many of their Orlando stores were open.

What happened was that two (out of the approximately 17) Orlando-based Chick-fil-a franchises opened their doors and some store employees volunteered their time to help their neighbors.

But according to your own link they knew very well that some Orlando locations were supporting the blood drive and seemed to have no problem with it. Interesting.

Especially as a massive corporation, I find it unsurprising that one hand can fund and support bigoted culture while another hand can care for and support a community that's suffering because of that bigotry, even if both hands know what the other is doing. Even conflating all of Chick-Fil-A into one group, I don't even find it especially hypocritical—granted the standard evangelical "love the sinner" hair-splitting.

Taking this optimistically, when folks from conservative cultures show up in an act of care and love, I hope they bring their experiences back to their homes, families, and churches. I hope they tell stories about real humans caring for each other as they grieve. I hope those stories go viral across conservative cultures. I want to see my small-town Texan relatives sharing those stories on Facebook.

Nomad wrote:

Meanwhile Chick-fil-a responds to the massacre by opening on a Sunday and providing free food to anyone who shows up to donate blood.

Nice gesture. Company even posted about it on their Facebook site. Nice to see that corporate is on board with this as well.

Demosthenes wrote:
Nomad wrote:

I didn't see anything about McDonalds or Starbucks out there, but I guess no good deed goes un-criticized.

I get that this is a fun thought experiment for you, but their efforts directly affected family and friends (both offline and on). The company is f*cking sh*t for doing that for over a decade, and no, one day doesn't change sh*t especially when it becomes clear that the company "allowed it to happen"/"didn't object". Those franchise owners deserve some praise, the company does not.

Seriously dude, you really don't belong in this thread if you're interested in defending a homophobic company because a couple of franchise owners did something nice.

Maybe I don't belong in this thread because my views are different than yours and you don't want to hear it? According to the mob think, there are only two sides. You either accept a person's actions as morally right and affirm them, or you hate them and are working toward their murder.

Many don't fit in either category. We mourn the tragedy in Orlando. We reject violence in any form against the LBGTQ community. Most importantly, there is no one morally right. Everyone is guilty according to the gospel, no matter what your skin color, bank account size, Facebook friend count, or sexuality, but God in his mercy and at great personal expense has provided a way out, the greatest rescue plan in all of history.

MattDaddy wrote:
Nomad wrote:

Meanwhile Chick-fil-a responds to the massacre by opening on a Sunday and providing free food to anyone who shows up to donate blood.

Nice gesture. Company even posted about it on their Facebook site. Nice to see that corporate is on board with this as well.

Would be great if this leads to their company not funding hateful and bigoted legislation targeting LGBTQ Americans.

Not holding my breath on that front, but agree that this is at least a baby step in the right direction.

wordsmythe wrote:

Taking this optimistically, when folks from conservative cultures show up in an act of care and love, I hope they bring their experiences back to their homes, families, and churches. I hope they tell stories about real humans caring for each other as they grieve.

They do.

Nomad wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Nomad wrote:

I didn't see anything about McDonalds or Starbucks out there, but I guess no good deed goes un-criticized.

I get that this is a fun thought experiment for you, but their efforts directly affected family and friends (both offline and on). The company is f*cking sh*t for doing that for over a decade, and no, one day doesn't change sh*t especially when it becomes clear that the company "allowed it to happen"/"didn't object". Those franchise owners deserve some praise, the company does not.

Seriously dude, you really don't belong in this thread if you're interested in defending a homophobic company because a couple of franchise owners did something nice.

Maybe I don't belong in this thread because my views are different than yours and you don't want to hear it? According to the mob think, there are only two sides. You either accept a person's actions as morally right and affirm them, or you hate them and are working toward their murder.

Many don't fit in either category. We mourn the tragedy in Orlando. We reject violence in any firm against the LBGTQ community. Most importantly, there is no one morally right. Everyone is guilty according to the gospel, no matter what your skin color, bank account size, Facebook friend count, or sexuality, but God in his mercy and at great personal expense has provided a way out, the greatest rescue plan in all of history.

Ok, that's lovely, but where in the gospel does it say to abandon responsibility as stewards of the earth to make the place better? Or does the great rescue plan mean that the world turning into a pile of sh*t is fine, as long as you get yours in heaven?

Tanglebones wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Nomad wrote:

I didn't see anything about McDonalds or Starbucks out there, but I guess no good deed goes un-criticized.

I get that this is a fun thought experiment for you, but their efforts directly affected family and friends (both offline and on). The company is f*cking sh*t for doing that for over a decade, and no, one day doesn't change sh*t especially when it becomes clear that the company "allowed it to happen"/"didn't object". Those franchise owners deserve some praise, the company does not.

Seriously dude, you really don't belong in this thread if you're interested in defending a homophobic company because a couple of franchise owners did something nice.

Maybe I don't belong in this thread because my views are different than yours and you don't want to hear it? According to the mob think, there are only two sides. You either accept a person's actions as morally right and affirm them, or you hate them and are working toward their murder.

Many don't fit in either category. We mourn the tragedy in Orlando. We reject violence in any firm against the LBGTQ community. Most importantly, there is no one morally right. Everyone is guilty according to the gospel, no matter what your skin color, bank account size, Facebook friend count, or sexuality, but God in his mercy and at great personal expense has provided a way out, the greatest rescue plan in all of history.

Ok, that's lovely, but where in the gospel does it say to abandon responsibility as stewards of the earth to make the place better? Or does the great rescue plan mean that the world turning into a pile of sh*t is fine, as long as you get yours in heaven?

It doesn't.

Then why are you using it as an argument against trying to make the country a safer, happier place?

Think Celestially, Act Locally

a catch-all for these kinds of religion arguments if people don't think they belong in the thread where they pop up.

Tanglebones wrote:

Then why are you using it as an argument against trying to make the country a safer, happier place?

I'm not.

Nomad wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Then why are you using it as an argument against trying to make the country a safer, happier place?

I'm not.

K. Think I'm going to take a break from the thread for a while. I know it's doing bad things to my anxiety, and I'd rather not continue ramping it up fruitlessly.

Nomad wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Nomad wrote:

I didn't see anything about McDonalds or Starbucks out there, but I guess no good deed goes un-criticized.

I get that this is a fun thought experiment for you, but their efforts directly affected family and friends (both offline and on). The company is f*cking sh*t for doing that for over a decade, and no, one day doesn't change sh*t especially when it becomes clear that the company "allowed it to happen"/"didn't object". Those franchise owners deserve some praise, the company does not.

Seriously dude, you really don't belong in this thread if you're interested in defending a homophobic company because a couple of franchise owners did something nice.

Maybe I don't belong in this thread because my views are different than yours and you don't want to hear it? According to the mob think, there are only two sides. You either accept a person's actions as morally right and affirm them, or you hate them and are working toward their murder.

Many don't fit in either category. We mourn the tragedy in Orlando. We reject violence in any form against the LBGTQ community. Most importantly, there is no one morally right. Everyone is guilty according to the gospel, no matter what your skin color, bank account size, Facebook friend count, or sexuality, but God in his mercy and at great personal expense has provided a way out, the greatest rescue plan in all of history.

...what? Are you proselytizing here? Why?

My disagreement with you doesn't revolve around you saying something I don't agree with, it's trying to suggest that some chicken sandwiches somehow means much of anything in the face of years of sponsoring abuses, degradation, and systemic attempts (many of which were successful) to counter their rights as citizens. Especially when it became clear that this wasn't a corporate decision (which that funding of their anti-LGBT efforts WAS), but a decision by a few franchise owners that the corporate HQ is trying to paint itself with (ignoring the other dozen or so restaurants in the area that didn't help).

Sorry, but some chicken sandwiches don't mean crap in the face of the self-loathing, self-harm, and self-hatred on top of the loathing, hatred, and harm they fostered in others towards the LGBT community that they themselves helped foster over the last decade.

So yeah, good on those franchise owners and their employees. Chik-fil-a, however, can continue to suck a duck.

Apparently the wife knew about the attack and perhaps did nothing to warn the authorities..

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breaki...

Ugh.. wtf.

TheGameguru wrote:

Apparently the wife knew about the attack and perhaps did nothing to warn the authorities..

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breaki...

Ugh.. wtf.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge, she might have been afraid he'd turn the guns on her and the son if she went to the authorities.

Nomad wrote:

Maybe I don't belong in this thread because my views are different than yours and you don't want to hear it? According to the mob think, there are only two sides. You either accept a person's actions as morally right and affirm them, or you hate them and are working toward their murder.

Many don't fit in either category. We mourn the tragedy in Orlando. We reject violence in any form against the LBGTQ community. Most importantly, there is no one morally right. Everyone is guilty according to the gospel, no matter what your skin color, bank account size, Facebook friend count, or sexuality, but God in his mercy and at great personal expense has provided a way out, the greatest rescue plan in all of history.

Judging everyone as guilty from the start makes him sound like the biggest asshole in the universe.

If you're in this thread, my presumption is that you have a viewpoint, or are open to learning about the different ones. I don't find P&C a productive place to go declaring you're proudly in a reasonable middleground.

Stengah wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

Apparently the wife knew about the attack and perhaps did nothing to warn the authorities..

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breaki...

Ugh.. wtf.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge, she might have been afraid he'd turn the guns on her and the son if she went to the authorities.

Given the history of domestic violence, I'd say that was likely a very well founded fear if it's one she had.