domestic terrorism/tragedy: florida nightclub shooting

Warning... incoming wall of text. If it's too much, please let me know and I will spoiler tag it.

As is all too often the case, a community in our nation is reeling as the result of mass murder. Yet again we have to deal with horrible headlines and a body count that is unimaginable. It seems like this "just happens" on the regular these days.

The thing is, this one hits all too close to home, both literally and figuratively. I grew up in Orlando (Oviedo, but it's all the same). Sure, I left and have no desire to return (permanently), but it's still the place I call my hometown. Secondly, the attack was perpetrated by someone who has a name that sounds like my name. Ever since 9/11 (honestly, even before) the first thought that goes through my head when some heinous act happens is "please don't let it be "Muslims". Unfortunately, it almost always does turn out to be assholes killing in some twisted service to Islam, even if it's only in their minds. Finally, this particular attack appears to have targeted the LGBTQ community directly. I have far too many friends who are a part of that community to stand idly by and let things like this go unmentioned. This was a hate crime, regardless of how the media/politicians will try to spin the narrative. It's also something that I fear has been brewing for some time now, and we as a people need to stand up and support our friends and family.

Sadly, as is also the case in these situations, the tragedy has been politicized. I have seen so many Facebook arguments already regarding Islam, gun rights, and homophobia, and it makes me sick.
Yes, there are discussions to be had on all levels. I have a lot of thoughts going through my head, and maybe I will commit them to a post or three, but not now.

Right now we need to have empathy. We need to feel for our fellow humans. Not only for the 50 people who senselessly lost their lives last night, not only for their families and loved ones, not only for the victims still fighting for their lives. We also need to compassionately consider the people of Orlando who now join that sad fraternity of names such as Sandy Hook, Aurora, Columbine and Virginia Tech. We need to reach out to those who may have different views or lifestyles than we do and try to understand them.
And most of all, we need to love each other.

Also, a pretty spot-on (IMO) quote from one of my dearest friends, who is gay.

This killer will most likely turn out to be a wannabe. All these idiots on tv and radio want to use the term "radical Islam", pounding their chests with masculinity.

Newsflash! This sick homophobic killer drove specifically to this LGBT establishment to inflict this horror. He could have easily gone down the street or the beach in Port St Lucie and inflicted this much pain.

Politicians in the US are not fooling the LGBT community right now. For years, especially since Republicans took over congress and many state legislatures, they have been passing homophobic laws to push people back into closets, make lives miserable, and criminalize the lives of people who simply want to live in peace and love with the person of their choosing.

It is shameful and embarrassing to watch these homophobic bigots stand in front of cameras and microphones talking abt this tragedy as if they have ever given two cents about gays, lesbians, and especially transgender people.

The LGBT community is watching you and will not forget your very transparent hypocrisy and opportunism.

My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the victims.

When a clearly disturbed individual walks into a nightclub and murders over 50 people it is depressing when so many people turn an incredible atrocity into a chance to grind their personal axes.

It seems our society can't wait to turn the latest catastrophic event to their morbid political gain. Meanwhile, the news cycle churns out more content than they have facts to support, all in search of more ad revenue.

Robear wrote:

Bfgp, it's a bit more than that, as he'd had some contacts with ISIS types in the past, but not enough to declare him a threat. I doubt he had any more than public resources, but I bet he used their propaganda to get himself ready to go, and as a rationalization for preparing to kill people.

This is my read on it too, and I think this is exactly the kind of behavior that ISIS is looking for. Social media allows ISIS to radicalize home-grown terrorists across the world who identify with the cause, and "ISIS" the organization only has to make a minimal investment and assume minimal risk in encouraging these kinds of fringe operatives.

Nomad wrote:

My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the victims.

When a clearly disturbed individual walks into a nightclub and murders over 50 people it is depressing when so many people turn an incredible atrocity into a chance to grind their personal axes.

It seems our society can't wait to turn the latest catastrophic event to their morbid political gain. Meanwhile, the news cycle churns out more content than they have facts to support, all in search of more ad revenue.

True in part, but I'd guess that the instinct to just mourn masks the wishes of the friends, family, and probably the victims to address the root causes of the murders, immediately. Instead we'll get a lot of 'thoughts and prayers', and no movement in politicized homophobia or gun fetishism.

Tanglebones wrote:

Instead we'll get a lot of 'thoughts and prayers', and no movement in politicized homophobia or gun fetishism.

Unfortunately, I feel that you are completely correct. We will, however, deepen the systematic hatred and distrust of all things Muslim here in the US.

krev82 wrote:

The news this morning has tales of the lbgtq struggle to donate blood to their kin in need...apparently blood donatation is still banned for members of these communities.. Still, now, twenty f*cking sixteen.

I can probably provide some insight on this; I worked for the American Red Cross for 14 years, doing development and management of the various systems they used to track and control the collection, distribution, and testing of blood products. The gay community was once one of the bedrocks of the ARC's collection system, and they were heavily relied on. As such, they became a big part of the Red Cross' business in the 70s and 80s, and then this thing called "AIDS" came along. Nobody knew exactly what it was at first, just that it seemed to be focused heavily on the gay community. There wasn't a test for it for quite a while, and, rather than alienate their donor base, the Red Cross kept collecting from their traditional donor base. Who, at that time, had a very high incidence of HIV, which couldn't be detected by any tests at that time.

So you basically collect blood, and turn it into red cells, platelets, and plasma. The latter of those is generally sent off to a big manufacturing facility, where plasma from many donors is pooled together into big batches, and those are then used to manufacture a variety of medical things, such as clotting factors for hemophiliacs. One HIV-positive donor in that giant pool would likely mean every single product that came out of it would be tainted with HIV, and every single person who receive that product would be exposed.

Long story short, the American Red Cross (and other blood banks) killed thousands and thousands of people in the 80s, because they chose to ignore the warning signs of the AIDS crisis, and effectively made a business decision that resulted in the deaths of untold numbers of people. I read at one point an uncorroborated statistic that 90% of the hemophiliacs in the U.S. wound up infected with HIV, and, as antiretroviral drug therapy didn't exist at that point to manage the disease, it was a death sentence.

When this all came out, there was a panic and the decision-making process slammed to the other side, and blood banks became hyper-sensitive about anything that might expose people to HIV. The thing is, right around when I started on that project in 2000 they came up with a second test for HIV (which was incredibly reliable), so every donation was double-tested, and the odds of a false negative slipping through are almost zero. The FDA lifted the lifetime ban on sexually active gay men donating blood at the end of last year, replacing it with a ban based on whether or not there'd been sexual activity within the last year. . . which doesn't seem to help. It's likely the same kind of anti-LGBTQ bigotry that drives so much of the disgusting crap coming out of the political right these days is still behind that decision. The Red Cross and other blood banks have been asking for more than a decade for the ban to be lifted because it makes utterly zero scientific sense for sexually active gay males to be banned, while heterosexuals can have all the unprotected sex they want and donate just fine, but the FDA still has the ban in place. Hopefully one positive thing that can come out of this horrible tragedy is this gets changed.

Anyways, not directly related to the shooting, but thought I'd provide a little context. There were entirely logical reasons why sexually active gay males were originally banned from donating blood, but those stopped being relevant 10+ years ago with better testing.

Tanglebones wrote:
Nomad wrote:

My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the victims.

When a clearly disturbed individual walks into a nightclub and murders over 50 people it is depressing when so many people turn an incredible atrocity into a chance to grind their personal axes.

It seems our society can't wait to turn the latest catastrophic event to their morbid political gain. Meanwhile, the news cycle churns out more content than they have facts to support, all in search of more ad revenue.

True in part, but I'd guess that the instinct to just mourn masks the wishes of the friends, family, and probably the victims to address the root causes of the murders, immediately. Instead we'll get a lot of 'thoughts and prayers', and no movement in politicized homophobia or gun fetishism.

IMAGE(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgabw3-ZKrWa2-A-WpYhERRZwfuDnYypprpoW8ZtSSeKkNS5DY)

RoughneckGeek wrote:
Nomad wrote:

My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the victims.

When a clearly disturbed individual walks into a nightclub and murders over 50 people it is depressing when so many people turn an incredible atrocity into a chance to grind their personal axes.

It seems our society can't wait to turn the latest catastrophic event to their morbid political gain. Meanwhile, the news cycle churns out more content than they have facts to support, all in search of more ad revenue.

I spent yesterday wondering if one of my friends was alive with no way to reach out and confirm if they were included among the number killed or not. I finally got a text this morning that he survive and is home safe. Had it been me in his shoes (and I'm sure he'd agree), if I'm ever one of the victims in an attack like the one that happened in Orlando, I want my death/injury politicized. Every f*cking moment of my life is politicized by folks that are perfectly happy to take away my rights. Every bit of progress towards being a full citizen of this country has had to be fought for politically. If my death can be leveraged politically to make things better for the surviving members of my community, leverage away. What's sick is seeing the same folks that strip my community of protections, fight against our rights try to turn this into a cudgel to beat another minority with. What's depressing is seeing folks that were perfectly happy to go on the campaign trail and support the message that we deserve to be rounded and killed now turn around and try to benefit from our deaths.

We were targeted for who we love. We have been for decades in this country. Sunday morning we were just also targeted with a deadly weapon.

You are welcome to respond as you see fit, but guys like Donald Trump that milk the pain of thousands for potential votes turn my stomach.

Nomad wrote:

You are welcome to respond as you see fit, but guys like Donald Trump that milk the pain of thousands for potential votes turn my stomach.

I don't think anyone hear would argue that Trump's antics have been disgusting, but arguable saying "bt-dubs, the US is the only developed Nation that experiences anywhere near this level of gun violence" is also using the last catastrophic event for political gain.

It's actually pretty hard to draw the line between "earnestly trying to stop these catastrophes" and "maneuvering for political gain". Other than by personal opinion of whether shipping all Muslims into camps is an actual solution that will dramatically lessen gun violence or doing a variety of changes to gun control to limit the kinds of guns available and the types of people that can get them will dramatically lessen gun violence.

Personally I think that the latter makes more sense and is a better fit with the kind of country I want the US to be, others disagree.

Each side thinks their own political gains are for the better, so of course events like this are politicized, in the hopes of moving the US in the right direction.

Yonder wrote:
Nomad wrote:

You are welcome to respond as you see fit, but guys like Donald Trump that milk the pain of thousands for potential votes turn my stomach.

I don't think anyone hear would argue that Trump's antics have been disgusting, but arguable saying "bt-dubs, the US is the only developed Nation that experiences anywhere near this level of gun violence" is also using the last catastrophic event for political gain.

It's actually pretty hard to draw the line between "earnestly trying to stop these catastrophes" and "maneuvering for political gain". Other than by personal opinion of whether shipping all Muslims into camps is an actual solution that will dramatically lessen gun violence or doing a variety of changes to gun control to limit the kinds of guns available and the types of people that can get them will dramatically lessen gun violence.

Personally I think that the latter makes more sense and is a better fit with the kind of country I want the US to be, others disagree.

Yonder wrote:
Nomad wrote:

You are welcome to respond as you see fit, but guys like Donald Trump that milk the pain of thousands for potential votes turn my stomach.

I don't think anyone hear would argue that Trump's antics have been disgusting, but arguable saying "bt-dubs, the US is the only developed Nation that experiences anywhere near this level of gun violence" is also using the last catastrophic event for political gain.

It's actually pretty hard to draw the line between "earnestly trying to stop these catastrophes" and "maneuvering for political gain". Other than by personal opinion of whether shipping all Muslims into camps is an actual solution that will dramatically lessen gun violence or doing a variety of changes to gun control to limit the kinds of guns available and the types of people that can get them will dramatically lessen gun violence.

Personally I think that the latter makes more sense and is a better fit with the kind of country I want the US to be, others disagree.

Well said (the whole thing, but I especially liked the bolded part). Thanks.

Abu5217 wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Instead we'll get a lot of 'thoughts and prayers', and no movement in politicized homophobia or gun fetishism.

Unfortunately, I feel that you are completely correct. We will, however, deepen the systematic hatred and distrust of all things Muslim here in the US.

IMAGE(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w440/sethpmason/thoughtsand_zpslrj2fh2q.jpg)

This whole chain of tweets aligns pretty well with my thinking:
https://twitter.com/JuliusGoat/statu...

I saw Pride stand against prejudice in the Castro
(Elizabeth Lopatto, The Verge, 2016-06-13)

Piece wrote:

The rally began even before I arrived in the Castro. On the Muni car, you could see them: rainbow flags and the flamboyant, bright style. One rider told another he didn’t know the Pride parade was today; she explained she was going to the rally for the queer people who were shot the night before in the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. There was a moment of awkward silence.

Tanglebones wrote:

This whole chain of tweets aligns pretty well with my thinking:
https://twitter.com/JuliusGoat/statu...

Top tweet:

"Can't we come together to mourn before finding a political solution" presupposes we have two sides that both want to find a solution.

This is intrinsically true to this situation. On the issue of gun control the left wants to "solve" the issue. The right doesn't want to solve the issue. The second amendment right believes that this shootings are the continual cost we pay to have the armed populace that protects us from tyranny. They believe that stopping continuance murders would necessarily (or incredibly likely) remove that protections and lead the US down the path to tyranny.

People that want increased/different gun control are at best naively trading liberty for a little temporary security, and at worst actively colluding to remove that defense so that they can bring tyranny to the US.

So we're several steps away from an actual solution here, before you can even start to come to agreement about how the problem can be solved, you need to begin by convincing the 2nd amendment right that a problem exists. For example pointing out that an armed populace doesn't protect political minorities, it becomes another tool of oppression, where a politically powerful person can shoot a politically weak person in "self-defense" etc, etc and get let off, while a politically weak person who uses or has a gun will be prosecuted far harder or just immediately killed.

Or you could convince them that the National Guard is the true militia that protects us, and that the strength of our National Guard is not affected by hobby shooting or people having a loaded weapon under their pillow in case the black helicopters/black people come kicking down their doors.

Those are all really, really hard cases to sell though, the second amendment right wing is incredibly, super entrenched on this topic, despite the majority of Americans now wanting increased background checks et al. I don't see the nation making any progress on those issues that are needed before real progress can actually be made on the actual gun control policies, because the different parties want such impossibly different things from the gun control.

I also don't see that as one of the issues that will stop being a Republican platform, even amidst all of the uncertainty about what is happening in the Republican party.

And in another dimension: one side wants the bigoted homophobic and transphobic rhetoric to stop. The "other" side doesn't want to acknowledge that this was an attack on queer people in particular. :l

You missed the irony of many of those folks that talk about guns as some kind of protection from tyranny cannot stop talking about how Obama is a traitor who is destroying America and how the government is rounding up people and putting them in FEMA concentration/re-education camps... and they're doing nothing. They proclaim "Tyranny!" at the top of their lungs, but can't be bothered to do anything... so what are those guns for again?

Yonder wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

This whole chain of tweets aligns pretty well with my thinking:
https://twitter.com/JuliusGoat/statu...

Top tweet:

"Can't we come together to mourn before finding a political solution" presupposes we have two sides that both want to find a solution.

This is intrinsically true to this situation. On the issue of gun control the left wants to "solve" the issue. The right doesn't want to solve the issue. The second amendment right believes that this shootings are the continual cost we pay to have the armed populace that protects us from tyranny. They believe that stopping continuance murders would necessarily (or incredibly likely) remove that protections and lead the US down the path to tyranny.

People that want increased/different gun control are at best naively trading liberty for a little temporary security, and at worst actively colluding to remove that defense so that they can bring tyranny to the US.

So we're several steps away from an actual solution here, before you can even start to come to agreement about how the problem can be solved, you need to begin by convincing the 2nd amendment right that a problem exists. For example pointing out that an armed populace doesn't protect political minorities, it becomes another tool of oppression, where a politically powerful person can shoot a politically weak person in "self-defense" etc, etc and get let off, while a politically weak person who uses or has a gun will be prosecuted far harder or just immediately killed.

Or you could convince them that the National Guard is the true militia that protects us, and that the strength of our National Guard is not affected by hobby shooting or people having a loaded weapon under their pillow in case the black helicopters/black people come kicking down their doors.

Those are all really, really hard cases to sell though, the second amendment right wing is incredibly, super entrenched on this topic, despite the majority of Americans now wanting increased background checks et al. I don't see the nation making any progress on those issues that are needed before real progress can actually be made on the actual gun control policies, because the different parties want such impossibly different things from the gun control.

I also don't see that as one of the issues that will stop being a Republican platform, even amidst all of the uncertainty about what is happening in the Republican party.

Gun control does not solve this issue. It's just not that simple. McVeigh did it with a rental truck full of fertilizer. 9-11 happened with box cutters and a commercial airliner. Deranged people will find a way.

Don't let the lack of a perfect solution prevent you from even looking at an imperfect one. Gun control won't fully solve the issue of people wanting to kill other people, but it will certainly make their successes far more rare.

Nomad wrote:

Gun control does not solve this issue. It's just not that simple. McVeigh did it with a rental truck full of fertilizer. 9-11 happened with box cutters and a commercial airliner. Deranged people will find a way.

Of course it doesn't but it it will lower the body count greatly.

farley3k wrote:
Nomad wrote:

Gun control does not solve this issue. It's just not that simple. McVeigh did it with a rental truck full of fertilizer. 9-11 happened with box cutters and a commercial airliner. Deranged people will find a way.

Of course it doesn't but it it will lower the body count greatly.

No, it's a universal issue, right?

Gun control works EVERY FREAKING WHERE ELSE, but somehow couldn't here. It's a complete load of bullsh*t, and everybody knows it.

I'm so... done.

I am tired. I am heartbroken. A friend of a friend died in Orlando. They met him at Pulse.

There was a vigil last night in Pittsburgh. I didn't go. I couldn't go. I just couldn't.

There is another vigil tonight. I don't know if I can go to this one, either.

The people I love are far away. If something were to happen to any of them, I don't know how I would even find out. How long it would take to find out. Whether I would find out.

I feel like I need to scream "no f*cking more" at the world. But I open my mouth and no sound comes out.

So I sit here in my office at work and wait, hoping that soon I can begin to feel again.

IMAGE(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/13442301_10153648322936179_7102005115115976891_n.jpg?oh=d2cea042bbec766747c3ae70a14ea9e4&oe=57FDFEA8)

I suggest humbly that we don't turn this into another Gun Control Strawman-all thread.

Some deranged people will find a way, but statistics tell us that most of them won't find a way, and most of the ones that do find a way will find a less bloody way.

Bloo Driver wrote:

I suggest humbly that we don't turn this into another Gun Control Strawman-all thread.

You are probably right but it is so hard since the media is kind of hammering on the theme. Still we have a thread for it so I will refrain in this thread.

RoughneckGeek wrote:
Nomad wrote:

Gun control does not solve this issue. It's just not that simple. McVeigh did it with a rental truck full of fertilizer. 9-11 happened with box cutters and a commercial airliner. Deranged people will find a way.

f*ck off. There's a thread for condescending bullsh*t like that.

I'm sorry if you are upset or disagree, but this was not posted in a condescending manner.

Nomad wrote:

Gun control does not solve this issue. It's just not that simple. McVeigh did it with a rental truck full of fertilizer. 9-11 happened with box cutters and a commercial airliner. Deranged people will find a way.

Ah, the ole' "if you can't prevent 100% of bad things from happening then you shouldn't do anything at all" argument.

Yes, McVeigh used a truck full of ANFO. And now the government tracks anyone who buys more than 25 pounds of ammonium nitrate, screens them against lists of known or suspected terrorists, and requires people to let law enforcement know if their ammonium nitrate was stolen.

Yes, the 9/11 terrorists used box cutters. And now we have the security theater that is the TSA, but we also have updated pilot protocols and reinforced cockpit doors.

So it seems you can take precautions after the fact that makes doing something again more difficult.

Everyone knows that they can't be kept 100% safe. There's always going to be someone who is angry and smart enough to kill lots of people. But that shouldn't stop us from doing things that make it more difficult for people who are angry and not-so-smart from being able to kill lots of other people.

And right now it is simply too bloody easy for virtually anyone to get ahold of a weapon that can kill dozens of people in a very short amount of time. I mean why muck around with elaborate plans when you can get kitted out for armageddon at anyone of the 50,000+ gun stores in America for around $1,000?

Nomad wrote:
RoughneckGeek wrote:
Nomad wrote:

Gun control does not solve this issue. It's just not that simple. McVeigh did it with a rental truck full of fertilizer. 9-11 happened with box cutters and a commercial airliner. Deranged people will find a way.

f*ck off. There's a thread for condescending bullsh*t like that.

I'm sorry if you are upset or disagree, but this was not posted in a condescending manner.

How many Oklahoma Government Buildings have we had since then? How many 9/11s had we had since that day?

9/11 is also a stupid example. We found problems there, we made changes, it hasn't happened again. Meanwhile, another asshole with hatred in his heart goes and buys and gun and shoots up a place and we do NOTHING. But, sure, tell us about how we can't stop random attacks so let's not try limiting the carnage at all.