Israel catch all

maverickz wrote:

As far as investigative journalism, I believe PBS' Frontline is the finest source for real journalism that exists today, and their program on Netanyahu is very good.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/fi...

Thanks for the link! I like PBS and trust their journalistic content in general.

Farscry wrote:
maverickz wrote:

As far as investigative journalism, I believe PBS' Frontline is the finest source for real journalism that exists today, and their program on Netanyahu is very good.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/fi...

Thanks for the link! I like PBS and trust their journalistic content in general.

There were also some fairly harsh critiques of the documentary that included charges that the show was stuffed with establishment experts with pro-Israel credentials and that the voices of both Palestinians and Iranians weren't heard even though the film dealt with Netanyahu's and Israel's reaction to both.

Additionally, you might want to know that the documentary includes lengthy segments of Michael Oren including bits where he's praising Netanyahu, where he's used as the primary source to describe how much of a threat Iran supposedly represented to Israel, and positioning Obama's 2009 Cairo speech that called for a return to the 1967 borders as something earth-shatteringly inappropriate even though it's been the US's official position for ages.

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

If you have a particular view of Israel.

There was an interesting piece on NPR a couple says ago discussing the Israeli real estate bubble and how difficult it is to find housing in Tel Aviv. One of the bits only touched on was the fact that 90% of land in Israel is owned by the state and the Netanyahu administration has been using land permitting as a way of forcing Israeli citizens to move out to disputed land.

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

maverickz wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

If you have a particular view of Israel.

That's really funny. Thanks.

I'm sorry, did I miss the part where OG was making a massively condescending comment?

Also from the Times of Israel, an article about how and why Maysam Abu Alqian was beaten by Israeli police and border agents:

"I returned from a delivery — I help with deliveries for the supermarket — and a man asked me for my ID,” Alqian told Army Radio Monday morning.

“I said I won’t give him my ID unless he shows me his police ID. He said, ‘I’m a cop and I have an ID.’ He didn’t tell me why he stopped me, why he wants to see [the ID]. I said, ‘You have to bring me someone in uniform.'”

The officer — police later said he was an off-duty border guard — “brought someone else from his team. It wasn’t long before they started hitting me,” Alqian said.

More police came to the scene. “There were a lot of them, I didn’t count. No one showed their ID. They just started beating me. I asked them to stop, tried to defend myself, to block their blows so they wouldn’t land on my face,” he said.

Under Israeli law, plainclothes officers are required to present their full name and rank, and present a physical ID, when they carry out police activities.

Bystanders tried in vain to intervene, Alqian recalled: “There were some people who worked with me in the supermarket who tried to stop it, but they couldn’t. There’s police, and nobody can intervene between police and a civilian. Lots of people watched from the supermarket. It’s one of the biggest streets in Tel Aviv.”

...

Kobi Cohen, who runs the supermarket, said he attempted to intervene with the officers. He said Monday morning he had visited Alqian in hospital and “saw how badly they beat him.”

“This shouldn’t have happened,” he told Army Radio. “What should happen now is a new process where people in the police and security services go through a process that teaches cops how to deal with people, how to speak to them, how to handle problems, and not to keep sending thugs in plainclothes to Tel Aviv. All the commanders have to do some soul-searching for sending these kids to Tel Aviv to look for illegal Palestinians.

“I don’t have to remind Israelis of the wave of police beatings of Ethiopians last year,” Cohen continued, recalling incidents of police brutality against Ethiopian Israelis. “There’s a problem in Israel of security personnel who take liberties and act this way. Someone needs to do some soul-searching.”

On Sunday, shortly after the incident, Cohen told the Ynet news site that officers had hit Alqian “mercilessly until he was incapacitated. Everyone is shocked by what happened. And there’s only one reason for it — the guy was an Arab.”

Undercover officers beating someone for nothing in full view of the public while failing to follow procedures is *not* a hill you want to die on, Maverick. It's simply not defensible. It happened. Maybe post some positive stuff to support your viewpoint? Because we are really lacking that here...

Robear wrote:

Undercover officers beating someone for nothing in full view of the public while failing to follow procedures is *not* a hill you want to die on, Maverick. It's simply not defensible. It happened. Maybe post some positive stuff to support your viewpoint? Because we are really lacking that here...

The article I posted was the backstory for the positive article he posted.

I don't think anyone here is saying anything remotely like "all Israelis are bad." What some people are saying, however, is that Israel's government and the policies it puts in place are, at best, troubling.

That's my position too, OG, has been for decades. But Mav certainly has an audience for more positive stuff here.

My beef is that the unnatural relationship between the US and Israel means we absolutely do own a great deal of the responsibility for Israel's atrocities. And if we are going to do so, we better well be receiving benefits to our own interests commensurate with the expense in real and political capital. So far, no one has been able to identify how such a calculation exists.

If they want to commit their own atrocities, fine. But we really need to wash our hands of it and tell them they are on their own for it.

Paleocon wrote:

My beef is that the unnatural relationship between the US and Israel means we absolutely do own a great deal of the responsibility for Israel's atrocities. And if we are going to do so, we better well be receiving benefits to our own interests commensurate with the expense in real and political capital. So far, no one has been able to identify how such a calculation exists.

If they want to commit their own atrocities, fine. But we really need to wash our hands of it and tell them they are on their own for it.

To be fair, the U.S. has never taken a strong stance against any strategic or trading partner. We're convinced we need Joe Pesci to represent us out there in the desert, so we turn a blind eye to a lot of the stuff he does.

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

My beef is that the unnatural relationship between the US and Israel means we absolutely do own a great deal of the responsibility for Israel's atrocities. And if we are going to do so, we better well be receiving benefits to our own interests commensurate with the expense in real and political capital. So far, no one has been able to identify how such a calculation exists.

If they want to commit their own atrocities, fine. But we really need to wash our hands of it and tell them they are on their own for it.

To be fair, the U.S. has never taken a strong stance against any strategic or trading partner. We're convinced we need Joe Pesci to represent us out there in the desert, so we turn a blind eye to a lot of the stuff he does.

The nature of the relationship, though is significantly different enough that it puts it in a different category. Not only do we afford them military and economic support and consider them under the US strategic nuclear umbrella, but we have consistently vetoed every measure to rein in their human rights abuses.

We really do own their behavior.

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

Maverickz wrote:

Robear wrote:

Undercover officers beating someone for nothing in full view of the public while failing to follow procedures is *not* a hill you want to die on, Maverick.

I have no idea where you're getting this impression.

Okay, so you're *not* taking people to task for posting about this incident? My bad, but it sure looks that way...

Robear wrote:

That's my position too, OG, has been for decades. But Mav certainly has an audience for more positive stuff here.

You could have fooled me. All I see is the same thing I've seen on reddit for years. I mean look at the last several posts by Paleocon. I'm fairly certain they're copy and pastes of his posts from years past. Which are all just run of the mill anti Israel shtick. And him starting this thread is a source of amusement for me.

Interesting. So all the negative stuff, it's... what, fake? Made up? Even major outlets of the Israeli media is in on it? What's your stance here, because my impression is that yes, this stuff is happening. There *are* problems with the Haredi assaulting people over religious and political beliefs. There *are* problems with settlers attacking Palestinians with the military turning a blind eye in many cases. There *are* problems with abuses by the military, up to and including division commanders in the Army encouraging them in the last conflict in the Palestinian Territories. The blockade of Gaza continues, with Netanyahu refusing to consider either shutting down illegal settlements in PA areas, or lifting the blockade. Even the economy sucks these days.

This stuff, and more, is under debate in Israel, but you're taking us to task for talking about it over the last few years? As I said, if you're concerned, offer counter-examples and supporting evidence. We are really not seeing that here, so go at it.

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

maverickz wrote:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Isr...

The first ever “Miss Trans Israel Pageant” packed an auditorium at the Bima National Theater in Tel Aviv on Friday, to mark the beginning of the 2016 Pride Events in Tel Aviv. The winner of the event – 21-year-old Ta’alin Abu Hanna, a Christian Arab from Nazareth, will represent Israel at the Miss TransStar International pageant in Barcelona in September.

Hooray for boosting trans women up onto the stage that the patriarchy has built for women. Woo. At last they too can be judged according to sh*tty unrealistic societal standards of beauty. /sarcasm

I mean yeah, maybe it's actually a boost from a certain point of view. Especially for people who are fine with beauty contests. As for me, subjecting them to the same bullsh*t other women face isn't my kind of equality.

LouZiffer wrote:
maverickz wrote:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Isr...

The first ever “Miss Trans Israel Pageant” packed an auditorium at the Bima National Theater in Tel Aviv on Friday, to mark the beginning of the 2016 Pride Events in Tel Aviv. The winner of the event – 21-year-old Ta’alin Abu Hanna, a Christian Arab from Nazareth, will represent Israel at the Miss TransStar International pageant in Barcelona in September.

Hooray for boosting trans women up onto the stage that the patriarchy has built for women. Woo. At last they too can be judged according to sh*tty unrealistic societal standards of beauty. /sarcasm

I mean yeah, maybe it's actually a boost from a certain point of view. Especially for people who are fine with beauty contests. As for me, subjecting them to the same bullsh*t other women face isn't my kind of equality.

This is the Israel thread, so I'm gonna say good for them.

Perhaps a beauty pagent isn't my favorite vehicle for trans signal boosting, but I'll call it a win for sure in the Middle East.

The Sudetanland is part of the Fatherland!

Paleocon wrote:

The Sudetanland is part of the Fatherland!

Anschluss

Edit: This thread is shameful. I forgot why I didn't bother participating.

Dimmerswitch wrote:

For what it's worth, I'd definitely be interested in reading (cited) contrary arguments.

I definitely have some opinions about the Israeli / Palestinian morass, but am always open to learning and having those beliefs challenged. :)

I honestly tried to explain my views several times as an Israeli but got sh*t on by Paleocon and other anti-Israelis on this forum so I pretty much stopped.
I can try and explain again, if people here are willing to listen.

maverickz wrote:

I mean look at the last several posts by Paleocon. I'm fairly certain they're copy and pastes of his posts from years past. Which are all just run of the mill anti Israel shtick. And him starting this thread is a source of amusement for me.

But I'm happy to give the benefit of doubt and post positive stories about Israel. This is a catchall thread after all.

Pretty much.

There was some illusion that the wave of Palestinian terror died down in recent months but I guess the Ramadan is always a time in which terrorists are more encouraged to do these type of things.
Two cousins, likely from Hebron, wore suits and sat in a cafe full of civilians in Tel Aviv. They acted like normal customers and after a while just started shooting everywhere. 3 dead as a result and at the moment 4 gravely wounded.
Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh praised the murder on his twitter account.
Palestinians are celebrating and handing away candies on the streets.
Tul Karem
Same thing in Istanbul

sonny615 wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:

For what it's worth, I'd definitely be interested in reading (cited) contrary arguments.

I definitely have some opinions about the Israeli / Palestinian morass, but am always open to learning and having those beliefs challenged. :)

I honestly tried to explain my views several times as an Israeli but got sh*t on by Paleocon and other anti-Israelis on this forum so I pretty much stopped.
I can try and explain again, if people here are willing to listen.

To be blunt, the problem is that -- only going off of what you post, because I can't read your mind -- your idea of what constitutes an "anti-Israeli" attitude comes across as the equivalent of those in the US who designate support for civil rights as racism against white people.

Footage of the terror act (warning: graphic):
link

The victim and the attacker are treated in the same hospital. That's pretty amazing as in most countries these savages would be long dead.
link