DSGamer Down Under (Australia) and back

Starting a new job can have a bit of a windup like that, hopefully it settles out in a way that you'd like.

When I was still there, more and more straight up dev jobs were getting offshored. If that trend has continued, then it's not surprising that there is more work on the business analyst side.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

When I was still there, more and more straight up dev jobs were getting offshored. If that trend has continued, then it's not surprising that there is more work on the business analyst side.

Actually I think there are a lot of developing jobs out there. So much so that one sympathetic coworker whom I asked about confusion over my role suggested I could just go find a new job easily as a developer. Not in a sarcastic way or anything. Just being genuine about the state of the job market. Last night at a tech meetup I went to there were oodles of jobs discussed. I even got approached by someone recruiting.

At this point I'm mostly frustrated about the fact that I even have to make the decision to wait months to see if this is a coding job or I have to leave a job a couple weeks in and move on. I hate even being in this spot. It ramps up my anxiety which is already piqued by all the change.

DSGamer wrote:
Mr GT Chris wrote:

When I was still there, more and more straight up dev jobs were getting offshored. If that trend has continued, then it's not surprising that there is more work on the business analyst side.

Actually I think there are a lot of developing jobs out there. So much so that one sympathetic coworker whom I asked about confusion over my role suggested I could just go find a new job easily as a developer. Not in a sarcastic way or anything. Just being genuine about the state of the job market. Last night at a tech meetup I went to there were oodles of jobs discussed. I even got approached by someone recruiting.

At this point I'm mostly frustrated about the fact that I even have to make the decision to wait months to see if this is a coding job or I have to leave a job a couple weeks in and move on. I hate even being in this spot. It ramps up my anxiety which is already piqued by all the change.

Depending on what creates more anxiety, maybe sit down and plan out a timeline for how long you want to budget for figuring out if this job is for you. That way you will both have made a real plan to address the problem but also given yourself enough time to do your due diligence - as well as more time to acclimate to Australia in general. It might be easier to deal with changing jobs after the culture shock has worn off somewhat.

Yeah I would give it 90 days and then see what you think. Especially if you go look for another job it is much easier to explain you gave it an honest effort but it ended up not being the type of position you are looking for.

LeapingGnome wrote:

Yeah I would give it 90 days and then see what you think. Especially if you go look for another job it is much easier to explain you gave it an honest effort but it ended up not being the type of position you are looking for.

The flip side is that I have no idea how long we'll be here with my wife's company. How long she'll have a job here, I mean. It could be a year. It could be 2 years. It could be indefinitely. I think part of what I'm feeling is anxiety to "sort it out" while it's still early. Given that I came from another country this could easily be chalked up to a mistake and I still have the rest of the year (assuming we only have a year) to work somewhere where my skills aren't atrophying.

Not disagreeing with you, LeapingGnome. Just tossing out ideas since it's on my mind.

I also wouldn't rush it. When I was still in the industry, it was easier to get a job offer when you were already in a position than when you were unemployed. So, if you could plan out your job hunting around your existing position, I think you should be in good shape to find something more attractive.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

I also wouldn't rush it. When I was still in the industry, it was easier to get a job offer when you were already in a position than when you were unemployed. So, if you could plan out your job hunting around your existing position, I think you should be in good shape to find something more attractive.

This is something that's hard to explain, but basically I have trouble doing work if it's not work I already know how to do. It's because I'm on a medication (since my other medication taper went sideways in Nov. 2014) that impairs memory. I have trouble at work unless I'm able to just grind out code. So it's simply a bad fit for what I'm capable of doing. I can tell I'm going to struggle to do this work. It might be better for me to not be working and to work on my health instead. I don't know. 8 hours a day is a lot of time to exercise, eat healthful food, do all the chores, read and otherwise take care of my brain as I attempt to figure out which medication I should get off of first.

Something that might be worth considering DS - have a look at the government work pools. There's usually 6 - 12 month contracts and ongoing casual pools for development (among just about everything else) that might fit your bill a bit better. My finger's more on the Brisbane pulse, but these roles are generally very code-centric, with most or all of the analysis work done and thrown over the wall for the devs to put together. Dunno if it will help you at all but I thought it was worth mentioning

Sure. I am definitely willing to move down and work at jobs I'm theoretically overqualified for while I work this all out. It's a terrible situation to be in. But I'm honest about who I am. I just need to figure out what to do.

Oh got it. Well seems like being up front with your employer and seeing if anything can come of it would be the way to go. If your budget allows for it then taking care of the household and yourself for a spell could be good too.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

Oh got it. Well seems like being up front with your employer and seeing if anything can come of it would be the way to go. If your budget allows for it then taking care of the household and yourself for a spell could be good too.

Just to be clear, I thought this was a dev job. I never would have taken it if I knew it was mostly consulting with a dash of dev somewhere down the road. Hopefully you don't think I've misled them. The job isn't what it was advertised to be and the thing that I didn't disclose, that I don't know if I could ever explain, is how I can do the job I thought I was hired to do, but not this one.

This is one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It's stressful enough to deal with so much change and such big change. But to know that I'm not as sharp as I was a couple of years ago and I have to plan my life around that? That's torture.

Yeah, sorry, I was clear about that. Just, when you said it was a consultancy, I wasn't surprised to hear that there would be a mix of positions/tasks. That was my experience back in the day, even though I was also in a dev position.

However, it seems like they did a poor job of outlining their expectations, so that's on them not you.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

it seems like they did a poor job of outlining their expectations, so that's on them not you.

Just want to highlight this part.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

Yeah, sorry, I was clear about that. Just, when you said it was a consultancy, I wasn't surprised to hear that there would be a mix of positions/tasks. That was my experience back in the day, even though I was also in a dev position.

However, it seems like they did a poor job of outlining their expectations, so that's on them not you.

No worries, I wasn't being defensive. Just trying to be clear because I feel like I'm not always clear right now, which I hate. I want to do a job I know I can do, but also I don't want to stay out of development. Or if I leave development temporarily for some reason I want it to be because I spent time getting healthier, etc. Sitting in an office spinning wheels because I don't have anything clear to do is not a good way to spend my time here and I think I'm going to leave and try to find something better or exercise, etc.

Usually in Australia most employees have a 3 or 6 month 'probation period' where you - or your employer - can part ways for any reason at all. After that period the rules change somewhat.

If they think you have stinky garlic breath, thats a good enough reason. If you think the job was misrepresented, then thats good enough too. I have seen people that simply leave at lunchtime on the first day and never come back.

You can use that to your advantage just as much as they can. Although obviously you wouldn't want to make a habit of it as it would make any future prospective employer wonder why you cant seem to keep a job.

Goo wrote:

Usually in Australia most employees have a 3 or 6 month 'probation period' where you - or your employer - can part ways for any reason at all. After that period the rules change somewhat.

If they think you have stinky garlic breath, thats a good enough reason. If you think the job was misrepresented, then thats good enough too. I have seen people that simply leave at lunchtime on the first day and never come back.

You can use that to your advantage just as much as they can. Although obviously you wouldn't want to make a habit of it as it would make any future prospective employer wonder why you cant seem to keep a job.

That's good to know. And of course I wouldn't. If anything I *still* feel badly. Like I didn't do enough to due diligence to make sure what the nature of my work would be. It says development. Everything mentioned in the job description is development. But sitting here knowing that I'll mostly be on site consulting for 2 - 4 months before development ramps up is no good. I could be out swimming daily and working on my health. Losing weight, seeing doctors, getting my meds in order, etc. I keep repeating this stuff almost like self-affirmation that this is okay because I do feel bad about even having to do this. It's how I'm wired.

DSGamer wrote:
Goo wrote:

Usually in Australia most employees have a 3 or 6 month 'probation period' where you - or your employer - can part ways for any reason at all. After that period the rules change somewhat.

If they think you have stinky garlic breath, thats a good enough reason. If you think the job was misrepresented, then thats good enough too. I have seen people that simply leave at lunchtime on the first day and never come back.

You can use that to your advantage just as much as they can. Although obviously you wouldn't want to make a habit of it as it would make any future prospective employer wonder why you cant seem to keep a job.

That's good to know. And of course I wouldn't. If anything I *still* feel badly. Like I didn't do enough to due diligence to make sure what the nature of my work would be. It says development. Everything mentioned in the job description is development. But sitting here knowing that I'll mostly be on site consulting for 2 - 4 months before development ramps up is no good. I could be out swimming daily and working on my health. Losing weight, seeing doctors, getting my meds in order, etc. I keep repeating this stuff almost like self-affirmation that this is okay because I do feel bad about even having to do this. It's how I'm wired.

Pretty hard to do when you're half a world away, and in a completely different timezone. Culturally, the perception of what a development role is also skewed, so again, don't be too hard on yourself. As long as there is no caveat in your work visa that states you must be employed at all times, then I'd say do what is best for you, as you are the one you're stuck with for the long term. If you return to the States in 12 months, these guys will be nothing more than a passing memory, a footnote on your memoirs...

And don't forget, exercise, plus sunshine, that's got be worth something.

m0nk3yboy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Goo wrote:

Usually in Australia most employees have a 3 or 6 month 'probation period' where you - or your employer - can part ways for any reason at all. After that period the rules change somewhat.

If they think you have stinky garlic breath, thats a good enough reason. If you think the job was misrepresented, then thats good enough too. I have seen people that simply leave at lunchtime on the first day and never come back.

You can use that to your advantage just as much as they can. Although obviously you wouldn't want to make a habit of it as it would make any future prospective employer wonder why you cant seem to keep a job.

That's good to know. And of course I wouldn't. If anything I *still* feel badly. Like I didn't do enough to due diligence to make sure what the nature of my work would be. It says development. Everything mentioned in the job description is development. But sitting here knowing that I'll mostly be on site consulting for 2 - 4 months before development ramps up is no good. I could be out swimming daily and working on my health. Losing weight, seeing doctors, getting my meds in order, etc. I keep repeating this stuff almost like self-affirmation that this is okay because I do feel bad about even having to do this. It's how I'm wired.

Pretty hard to do when you're half a world away, and in a completely different timezone. Culturally, the perception of what a development role is also skewed, so again, don't be too hard on yourself. As long as there is no caveat in your work visa that states you must be employed at all times, then I'd say do what is best for you, as you are the one you're stuck with for the long term. If you return to the States in 12 months, these guys will be nothing more than a passing memory, a footnote on your memoirs...

And don't forget, exercise, plus sunshine, that's got be worth something.

It's worth a ton to me. Obviously there's a way this goes where I don't work. If you told me I could trade a year's salary for getting back in shape and finishing these complicated medication changes I started in 2014, I'd take that tradeoff in a heartbeat. This is my life at stake. And life is short. Probably even shorter if I don't take better care of myself. So I absolutely value that.

DSGamer wrote:

If you told me I could trade a year's salary for getting back in shape and finishing these complicated medication changes I started in 2014, I'd take that tradeoff in a heartbeat. This is my life at stake. And life is short. Probably even shorter if I don't take better care of myself. So I absolutely value that.

If you're in a financial position to do this, without adding undue pressure to your wife or your relationship with her, then I say make that choice together to invest in yourself (because you're worth it).

m0nk3yboy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

If you told me I could trade a year's salary for getting back in shape and finishing these complicated medication changes I started in 2014, I'd take that tradeoff in a heartbeat. This is my life at stake. And life is short. Probably even shorter if I don't take better care of myself. So I absolutely value that.

If you're in a financial position to do this, without adding undue pressure to your wife or your relationship with her, then I say make that choice together to invest in yourself (because you're worth it).

:nicekiss:

Thanks.

My wife is leaning towards me just taking time off, to be honest. She's seen how miserable I am and I think it's been eye opening to her. She's also, rightly, scared of seeing me like I was the first time I tried to get off the medication. We'll see. At the risk of turning this into a blog post I won't go into the medication stuff, but suffice it to say I need to spend more time on myself. Whether that's taking time off or prioritising sun and exercise regularly at work.

The reason I keep making that comparison, as if it's binary, is because right now there is ample sun. For the first time in my life I live somewhere where I can walk down to a swimming pool and swim laps for fun in the middle of the day. And I'm spending my time sitting in an office not really working. It's unfulfilling on multiple levels and feels like a waste of my life.

Goo wrote:

Usually in Australia most employees have a 3 or 6 month 'probation period' where you - or your employer - can part ways for any reason at all. After that period the rules change somewhat.

As an American this sounds really weird. I'm in (and mostly know people also in) an at-will state. Which means this is the case regardless of how long you're with a company. That's not the case in Australia, I take it..

bnpederson wrote:
Goo wrote:

Usually in Australia most employees have a 3 or 6 month 'probation period' where you - or your employer - can part ways for any reason at all. After that period the rules change somewhat.

As an American this sounds really weird. I'm in (and mostly know people also in) an at-will state. Which means this is the case regardless of how long you're with a company. That's not the case in Australia, I take it..

From what I read in my employment contract, with some exceptions, once you're past 3 months you have to give each other 4 weeks notice, at least. That's my recollection. That's part of why there's some urgency on my part. If I were to literally wait 90 days I would be deep into June before I could find new work, possibly.

bnpederson wrote:
Goo wrote:

Usually in Australia most employees have a 3 or 6 month 'probation period' where you - or your employer - can part ways for any reason at all. After that period the rules change somewhat.

As an American this sounds really weird. I'm in (and mostly know people also in) an at-will state. Which means this is the case regardless of how long you're with a company. That's not the case in Australia, I take it..

So yeh, what generally happens once you pass that 'probation period' is this

As an employee, if you want to leave, you need to give a period of notice - usually equivalent to a pay cycle. 4 or 2 weeks in most cases these days

If you just up and go you are potentially forgoing any unclaimed annual leave pay, long service leave pay or other benefits. (you get 4 weeks leave/year here paid by employer).

It's messier for the employer however. While you can summarily dismiss someone on the spot, you need to be damn sure it's justifiable. Gross misconduct, criminal act, Assault etc. Anything else needs to be handle with a series of written warnings and a paper trail of performance improvement plans etc.

Theres a fairly robust system for an employee to lodge an appeal and seek compensation if he feels he has been treated badly

Usually when you are no longer required (wether for legitimate business restructure reasons or 'we cant be stuffed with the paperwork, just get rid of him' reasons) i's a bit cleaner for the employer to issue a redundancy letter and payout and give you a bit of a soft landing to move out with minimum fuss.

Having said that, individual contracts can alter the system somewhat - But in general thats the gist of the system. (BTW I'm not in HR so if I'm not 100% on the dot here, don't sue me. It's the vibe man, it's Mabo.)

We had a guy who was a real problem in my team, and managing him out 'properly' was a nightmare. Despite the fact he was clearly incompetent, Lazy, had a track record of going home early, was confrontational with other employees (and customers)..Made a direct threat to me in a performance improvement meeting.. you name it.

Took months to get him out. In the end it took him calling a customer a 'Stupid Old Bastard' before he got turfed. And then the fun REALLY started lol.

(BTW I'm not in HR so if I'm not 100% on the dot here, don't sue me. It's the vibe man, it's Mabo.)

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/XS5LK.gif)

Watched the movie right before I came.

Excellent homework Sir haha

I'm extremely sympathetic. Of course our situations aren't identical but I was forced from J2EE dev into Business Objects architecture/admin. For a while I got past it (being so obviously valued and future higher salary easing the pain) but eventually it pretty much drove me nuts. Fortunately, my company was somewhat sympathetic and I could move offsite for a time and they covered some therapy (kind of wish they'd listened to my earlier complaints more seriously though). I was able to do some dev for a while but eventually I decided to move onto something completely different.

Two friends of mine in the industry had similar experiences. One went into BA, but luckily ended up liking it better. Another friend went into testing and automation, kicking and screaming. In the end, he's making close to triple so he seems to have made his peace with it. Certainly not something everyone can do.

From what you say, working on you sounds like the right move. Sydney does indeed have the weather for it!

DS, sorry the job just hasn't worked out, if I was in your shoes I would be pretty stressed too and feel a little guilty because they were so understanding about the delays, but don't feel like it is a failure on your part to not vet the job, it really sounds like it was misrepresented. Also in consulting I would not count on that dev work showing up in '2-4 months', a lot of people say things or have good intentions but I wouldn't depend on the work changing.

I would quit and take some time, see how you feel in a month and each month after that. It sounds like you and your wife know what you should do, and you are just in the process of making peace with it. If you are financially able, I think taking some time off would be great.

m0nk3yboy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

If you told me I could trade a year's salary for getting back in shape and finishing these complicated medication changes I started in 2014, I'd take that tradeoff in a heartbeat. This is my life at stake. And life is short. Probably even shorter if I don't take better care of myself. So I absolutely value that.

If you're in a financial position to do this, without adding undue pressure to your wife or your relationship with her, then I say make that choice together to invest in yourself (because you're worth it).

:nicekiss:

+1. I got laid off a few months ago and instead of getting right back on the horse, I took some time off... even something as short as 2, 2.5 weeks just so you can clear your head before staring the new job.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

I'm extremely sympathetic. Of course our situations aren't identical but I was forced from J2EE dev into Business Objects architecture/admin. For a while I got past it (being so obviously valued and future higher salary easing the pain) but eventually it pretty much drove me nuts. Fortunately, my company was somewhat sympathetic and I could move offsite for a time and they covered some therapy (kind of wish they'd listened to my earlier complaints more seriously though). I was able to do some dev for a while but eventually I decided to move onto something completely different.

That's my fear in a nutshell, actually. Our situations aren't identical, but it's hard to change what you love doing. Especially if it's not your choice. Don't get me wrong, there are days when I think about exiting this business altogether, but I'm not there yet, I love doing software development and I'm good at it. And, frankly, when I sit back and ask myself what I'd prefer to do I can't come up with anything. I like the work.

LeapingGnome wrote:

DS, sorry the job just hasn't worked out, if I was in your shoes I would be pretty stressed too and feel a little guilty because they were so understanding about the delays, but don't feel like it is a failure on your part to not vet the job, it really sounds like it was misrepresented. Also in consulting I would not count on that dev work showing up in '2-4 months', a lot of people say things or have good intentions but I wouldn't depend on the work changing.

That's pretty much where my head was yesterday. I talked to the recruiter I worked with and he's trying to see if the job can be modified to be what it was supposed to be, but I don't know how into that I am. Besides, I like being around other developers. Waiting for something that might happen and doing proof of concept stuff until this all comes together sounds like a good way to watch the summer drift away from a desk.

Iridium884 wrote:

+1. I got laid off a few months ago and instead of getting right back on the horse, I took some time off... even something as short as 2, 2.5 weeks just so you can clear your head before staring the new job.

The weird thing is that I did take time off because of the move, saying goodbye to family, etc. But we've only been in Australia for a few weeks. So I haven't really had much time off where I wasn't packing, moving, saying goodbye to people or dealing with surgery.