Trouble at the Koolaid Point

bekkilyn wrote:

I don't get it. Why would The Escapist do this? Have they always been supportive of GG or is this something completely out of the blue?

They were one of a couple of sites that announced ethics policies in one of the earlier phases of this. And they haven't banned GG discussion from their forums, putting them in a rather exclusive group. I get the feeling that internally they think they're being fair and balanced and showing all sides of the issues.

Of course, if we go by the recent Operation Thunderclap thing, the entire activist GG movement is 3716 people. With, I'd guess, about 30K or so lurkers and less active people. (There's been counterpropaganda to the effect of other GG twitter follower numbers being bigger, but even at the outside it's a fairly small group of people.)

We've got a tiny, amorphous group of people who are attacking the most vulnerable game developers and critics right now, and a lot of people trying to wait it out and hope it goes away. I'm not sure, at this point, that it's going to dissipate. It's what Kathy Sierra said: ignoring them doesn't work anymore.

This is one reason why I think Katherine Cross's article is one of the most important things I've read this year. I think its one of the best descriptions for why the internet is increasingly witnessing this new kind of outrage activism. And I think this kind of amorphous "consumer revolt" thing is going to keep happening. (There have been earlier precedents, like when Valve skipping a halloween event prompted DOTA players to attack a completely unrelated car company.)

It is sad that something like this had to be written

What To Expect When You’re Expecting (the internet to ruin your life)

It is a guide on how to lock down your various accounts.

Ignoring a problem never works. There was a period of time in elementary school where I was brutally teased by other kids and my parents would always suggest that I just ignore them and they would then get bored and stop. Like that ever worked! Better advice would have been for me to beat the snot out of those brats and then they really would think twice about messing with me.

Now schoolyard brawls don't exactly work the same way for adults as they might for little kids, so beating the snot out of each other isn't a real solution, but we should never just ignore a problem in hopes it will go away!

Thanks for the explanations on The Escapist. It's a real shame. Mr. Tito can talk all he wants about not supporting harassment and such, but it's actions that really matter, not empty words.

I went over to The Escapist and started reading some of the comments on the "Male Developers" articles and finally had to stop reading when someone posted this:

And frankly, in terms of the sexual harassment... I'm not saying it's right, but guys say much and more to each other... if anything, a girl being harassed isn't sexism... it's equality.

You can't want equality, then demand special treatment.

Whether you like it or not, many guys enjoy sh*t talking.

Men and woman are different people mentally and biologically. Generally speaking, we enjoy different things.

Lastly, I'd like to point out the target demographic of games. Some, I wouldn't say all, of course, but some don't interact with woman on an every day basis, and they might be confused as to how to approach a girl they've met.

How do they impress her? Bravado, of course.

But what they see as Bravado... she sees as sexual harassment.

Someone else posted a comment earlier about how his girlfriend was harassed in a mud a while back and sent d**k pictures from about 30 people and how she has refused to go online since that time, and just got brushed off with comments like she should have come up with a witty comeback to send back to them. The guy complained about how he got not one drop of empathy from anyone concerning the situation and got brushed off again.

It's just too depressing to continue reading, so I am done with The Escapist for now.

I just can't fathom what The Escapist is doing? Apart from getting a bunch of traffic and new users by feeding the trolls.

No matter, if The Escapist wants to be a haven for sexism, mysogony, and those who would criminally harass, then I do not want to go there.

As of now, a Twitter search for @chatterwhiteman (the account that tweeted rape and death threats to Brianna Wu) shows a lot of #GamerGate folks reporting him and urging others to do the same. The account has been suspended. Good on them!

"I didn't leave The Escapist; The Escapist left me."

And so begins the "He's a plant/shill/false flag" bullsh*t.

SixteenBlue wrote:

And so begins the "He's a plant/shill/false flag" bullsh*t.

That happened about 5 minutes after she posted that she got death threats.

BadKen wrote:

As of now, a Twitter search for @chatterwhiteman (the account that tweeted rape and death threats to Brianna Wu) shows a lot of #GamerGate folks reporting him and urging others to do the same. The account has been suspended. Good on them!

Yeah, unfortunately, for as many of them as are going on about how #GG stopped the threats (literally, only they're worth mentioning, apparently)... there's just as many going on about how this is a false flag. Hell, a few of the people bragging about how they helped get this account suspended are speculating that it's crap, are trying to investigate if the victim really called the cops, etc... And they still refuse to see that their "revolt" has turned into something very, very ugly.

Demosthenes wrote:

And they still refuse to see that their "revolt" has turned into something very, very ugly.

It always was ugly and they know it. They're liars.

Right, exactly... the whinging in public is for show. Many of the exact same people are cheering in private.

The person who did the doxxing is probably leading the charge on the denunciations.

SixteenBlue wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:

And they still refuse to see that their "revolt" has turned into something very, very ugly.

It always was ugly and they know it. They're liars.

I'm literally watching a conversation where a joke account that made fun of GamerGate from tonight's victim is ample proof she lied, got what she deserved, or is just doing this for attention because that's how female devs sell their games. Meanwhile, GamerGate doesn't understand why people think one of their members is responsible for tonight's attack.

Just a reminder: the people who are complaining about shills and false flags are in the minority, too. Rather than painting all of #GamerGate with the same brush, it might be more productive to encourage them to denounce those people as well. You might want to point out that complaining about shills is harassment too. It just isn't as direct.

If the goal is to stop harassment, antagonism is not helpful or productive.

I disagree. If you align yourself with the mob that includes people who write articles called "In Defense of Rape" and neo-nazis (not Godwin-ing, actual fact) then you deserve to be painted with the brush they're using. I don't believe there are reasonable #GamerGate supporters because there is NOTHING reasonable about #GamerGate.

It's not antagonizing to talk about them honestly and frankly. In my opinion, it's less productive to water it down and let them pull the #NotAllGG card on us.

SixteenBlue wrote:

I disagree. If you align yourself with the mob that includes people who write articles called "In Defense of Rape" and neo-nazis (not Godwin-ing, actual fact) then you deserve to be painted with the brush they're using. I don't believe there are reasonable #GamerGate supporters because there is NOTHING reasonable about #GamerGate.

Yeeeep.

If you (for whatever reason, since I tend to think the entire *concept* of GG is BS, but I digress...) agree with GG... you should probably just distance yourself from GG and start up your own not-sh*tty group around that.

If the goal is to improve the condition of female game developers, writers and scholars, that goal is not advanced by fostering conflict. Help the people who claim their only #gamergate goal is to fight corruption by encouraging them to actively fight harassment as well. The rhetoric needs to pull back from grand ideological warfare to deal with the specific actions that are harming people. Until that harassment is at least reduced, the conflict will continue, and no forward progress can be made.

People opposed to the whole concept of GamerGate need to forcefully condemn harassment of GamerGate as well. It doesn't matter if that harassment is believed to be completely manufactured. Condemning *all* harassment takes the wind out of the sails of those who are claiming "well, both sides do it".

I think the most important thing right now is to turn this back into a debate of ideas and pull away from the "warfare" memes being tossed around, before people are physically harmed or even killed.

BadKen wrote:

Help the people who claim their only #gamergate goal is to fight corruption by encouraging them to actively fight harassment as well.

If these people existed, I would consider this. But they don't. #GamerGate is not about corruption, it is about harassment.

This has NEVER been a debate of ideas. We can't go back to it because it didn't start that way and get ugly, it started ugly and got uglier. Any actual attempt to talk (See Leigh Alexander's recent list of actual issues in the game industry) is ignored in favor continuing harassment.

If there's one thing we should all be doing, it's dispelling the myth that #GamerGate has ever been about anything except targeted attacks on women in the game industry.

SixteenBlue wrote:

If there's one thing we should all be doing, it's dispelling the myth that #GamerGate has ever been about anything except targeted attacks on women in the game industry.

That's only pouring kerosene on the fire, and it will not stop women getting attacked. Speaking out against the group only angers the group. Speaking out against the actions gives you allies within the group who are also speaking out against those actions. It doesn't matter whether they are being disingenuous. By getting some of the group to publicly agree with you, you destabilize the group to the detriment of those who are only in it to cause trouble.

I am well aware of the origins of #GamerGate. I'm also aware that every day I see complaints on the #GamerGate tag complaining about real generalizations that are really made against #GamerGate. It doesn't hurt anyone to stop generalizing. Not generalizing makes anti-harassment statements more focused, and it gives #GamerGate less ammunition.

I was pretty disappointed to see the EIC of The Escapist on this week's Conference Call. I know the CC isn't a hard news thing, and I don't want to put too much pressure on our dear leaders, but it would be great if the asked Greg about his motivations for his stance. I haven't got very far yet, but it's not in the show notes so I doubt it.

I'm also aware that every day I see complaints on the #GamerGate tag complaining about real generalizations that are really made against #GamerGate.

From my perspective: too damn bad. They're in bed with virtual terrorists. If they don't want to be considered terrorists too, they need to start a new group.

If they continue to associate themselves with the #gamergate hashtag, it is both safe and entirely just to paint them with the same brush.

I honestly don't see an endgame for this that isn't depressing. The options are:

  • Stay quiet and hope they'll go away (we already know this doesn't work with trolls)
  • Try to reason with them (doesn't work... every reasonable/nuanced anti-GG post I see gets obviously wrong & entrenched/defensive responses)
  • Shout them down (they just shout back)

Where's the option that doesn't end in more jerks doxxing and harassing people?

Ranger Rick wrote:

I honestly don't see an endgame for this that isn't depressing. The options are:

  • Stay quiet and hope they'll go away (we already know this doesn't work with trolls)
  • Try to reason with them (doesn't work... every reasonable/nuanced anti-GG post I see gets obviously wrong & entrenched/defensive responses)
  • Shout them down (they just shout back)

Where's the option that doesn't end in more jerks doxxing and harassing people?

FBI intervention and/or a shunning by/of industry outlets that support them.

Find GamerGate allies. Convince them to help shut down trolls. There are GamerGate supporters who are more than willing to do what it takes to prove that GamerGate is not about harassment. Be prepared, though, because any discussion that uses the hashtag is going to get invaded by unruly troublemakers. Find common ground. Talk about games - for some GamerGate folks it's all about the games. Don't get dragged into arguments about journalists insulting gamers. If they start talking about that, change the subject, because discussing that is a losing proposition.

If enough GamerGate supporters start shouting down trolls, the trolls won't have any cover.

A lot of GamerGate's "ideology" is problematic, but the real problem is the trolls who will post anything to get a rise out of someone. I honestly don't know if having their cohorts shaming them is going to slow them down, but it couldn't hurt. I'm not even sure that getting law enforcement involved will work, because look at weev.

What we really need is the equivalent of a digital restraining order, and that just doesn't exist right now.

My fear is that it will all just get swept under the virtual carpet in the name of making peace, and everything will just go on as it did before, if not worse for some groups of people, with nothing actually resolved and people too afraid to bring up the subjects again.

F*ck The Escapist and the horse it rode in on.

Here the gators are discussing how Brianna Wu wrote the threats herself because she is the only person who uses the word "asshat".

http://8chan.co/gg/res/85429+50.html

Saw this 8chan image telling people who get threats not to give out details. But of course, if you say you've been threatened, you'll be dogpiled by #gamergators demanding proof.

IMAGE(http://8chan.co/gg/src/1413016072862.png)

BadKen wrote:

As of now, a Twitter search for @chatterwhiteman (the account that tweeted rape and death threats to Brianna Wu) shows a lot of #GamerGate folks reporting him and urging others to do the same. The account has been suspended. Good on them!

Reportedly, Twitter does not let you report threats against someone else. This has actually been a huge complaint from a lot of people who have been trying to help those overwhelmed by death threats and the like only to be ignored by Twitter's system. Still, good that they're publicly condemning the threats.

BadKen wrote:

What we really need is the equivalent of a digital restraining order, and that just doesn't exist right now.

This is, perhaps, the whole problem with the internet right now: absent the social cues of being in the same place some people apparently can't control themselves. Or maybe they can't control themselves ever and the internet just lets them find victims they wouldn't otherwise. And we have no way to make them do it, short of banning the abusers from every site one by one.

It probably is helpful to emphasise that not every GG-affiliated person is actively harassing people. I think passively standing by is just as bad, but I recognize that telling them that won't necessarily win them over. Although, telling them that might end up being all we can do, and maybe we should do it anyway, but it won't help as much as it probably should.

There have been people on the "SJW" side harassing people; not in anywhere near the same numbers, but there. That's another reason why Katherine Cross's article is so significant: she explicitly discusses the intra-feminism harassment that has occurred over the past couple of years. That so many of the same people being harassed then are being harassed again is part of the tragedy.

But saying that both sides have been harassed is an ad hominem. And it mistakes this as being about two sides. There really is just GamerGate (itself with multiple factions) and everyone else running for cover. Every opposing organized group has been the vapors of their paranoid fears or has banded together after being harassed. Mostly paranoid fears, though.

Part of that is because the GG movement as a whole doesn't really have much behind it. So far they've completely failed to bring up any issue of substance, which is quite a trick given the minefield of issues they've managed to dance through unscathed. I think some of them are at least talking about the Shadows of Mordor video contract, once people outside the movement pointed it out to them. But that's about it as far as I've seen.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Saw this 8chan image telling people who get threats not to give out details. But of course, if you say you've been threatened, you'll be dogpiled by #gamergators demanding proof.

This reminds me of that CSI episode where some arsonist was starting fires in order to set up scenarios for him to act heroic and get public recognition for his acts of bravery.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Saw this 8chan image telling people who get threats not to give out details. But of course, if you say you've been threatened, you'll be dogpiled by #gamergators demanding proof.

It boils down, effectively, to - "If you are threatened in a public space, don't make a fuss. Then you're the one who is wrong!" This, of course, has been gg's M.O. the whole time. Push people, be offensive and invasive until you get a response and then pick that response apart as "proof" they're the real problem.