Battlestar Galactica - Final Season Catch-All (SPOILERS)

It's Glen A Larson doing it though, not Ron Moore. The re-imagining was the only good thing about BSG and I say this as a child of the 70s who loved sci fi growing up. Even then I thought BSG was crap.

The whole thing of someone with vastly more talent than you taking the germ of your ideas and making it into something extraordinary, only for you to claim it back again as your own again once they're done is incredibly graceless in my opinion. If Larson grew a neck big enough to swallow his chin he could basically be George Lucas at this point.

The reboot is more Mormon's in Space than Who's a Cylon.

Maybe they'll bring back the interstellar disco parties...

Y'all saw this though, Right?

Diaspora: Shattered Armistice

edit: oh yes, you probably have.

how have I still not downloaded that?

I finished marathoning this series for the first time last night, so I'm giving this thread a bump because I need to get it out of my system.

All I'd heard about the show was that the final episode was apparently so bad that I shouldn't watch it. Now that I've seen it I don't agree with that, it wasn't something that retroactively ruined the rest of the show. It was more of a gradual decline than something that fell of a cliff at the end. I didn't care about the silly robot montage because I didn't care that much at all by the end. I've been trying to figure out where it went wrong, because the difference between how well it starts and how poorly it ends up is so great.

What I think is great about the show in the beginning is that it has such a clear focus, which is the desperate and immediate struggle for survival that the remainder of the human race is dealing with. That's what makes "33" a great episode, but part of the problem is that nothing ever feels as desperate as that first episode ever again. Around the end of season 2, when the Cylons simply let humanity survive is when they lose that feeling and never quite get it back. The evacuation of New Caprica at the beginning of season 3 was great though, it was probably the last victory that felt earned.

Then there's the spiritual stuff. It was there in force right from the start, but it was presented quite differently from how it is at the end. Using "33" as an example again, the visions Baltar is having are deliberately made to be ambiguous. There's no clear causal relationship between Baltar choosing to repent and Roslin ordering the destruction of the Olympic Carrier. That ambiguity is what made it great. Later, when Baltar resigns himself from life and that sick boy is miraculously cured it's clear that there is a literal God in the story, so the idea of faith becomes pointless. It's not a matter of belief any more, it's a fact. You can tell a story where God is involved, but it didn't feel to me like that's what they were doing until they suddenly decided that it was. A story that features religion is very different from actual religious fiction.

Some other things: they should've killed off more characters. Baltar may as well have died on New Caprica, the two season long redemption arc didn't justify itself even if I mostly enjoyed him. Roslin was a worse offender, I guess she was kept alive just for Bill. She had almost nothing to do in season 4 and in season 3 she was just spiteful and annoying. I could've done without Lee's arc as a politician, another character it seemed like they kept around because they were afraid to kill him. Hera was an annoying mcguffin, making the final battle of the entire show about saving her felt unearned. The second half of season 4 was aimless in general, it wasn't building towards anything. Most of the internal Cylon intriguing added very little. The opera house reveal /o\, terrible.

Also, a potential plot hole that I've been trying to work out:
Athena shoots a Six on Galactica and the rebel basestar jumps out. Galactica then sends a scout Raptor to where they thought the Hub was and finds evidence of a battle. However, when we get to see the basestar's perspective we see them chasing the Hub for at least a day, if not days, because it kept moving around. Did it just randomly return to the old spot, or how the hell did that Raptor find the remnants of the battle? If it was the old spot, why did it take them so long to return to the rendezvous point?

kyrieee wrote:

I've been trying to figure out where it went wrong, because the difference between how well it starts and how poorly it ends up is so great.

Somewhere around having Starbuck die and then come back as an angel or whatever she was.

Stele wrote:
kyrieee wrote:

I've been trying to figure out where it went wrong, because the difference between how well it starts and how poorly it ends up is so great.

Somewhere around having Starbuck die and then come back as an angel or whatever she was.

What I remember reading was that for around the first two seasons the writers were just making things up as they went along. This is normally not a good thing for a show of this type but in this case it actually worked because the characters themselves were also making it up as they went along. Somewhere around the end of season 2 the writers all sat down and actually mapped out where the rest of the show was going and you can clearly see this transition take place on screen. This is also when you start to notice the show slowly going down hill.

breander wrote:
Stele wrote:
kyrieee wrote:

I've been trying to figure out where it went wrong, because the difference between how well it starts and how poorly it ends up is so great.

Somewhere around having Starbuck die and then come back as an angel or whatever she was.

What I remember reading was that for around the first two seasons the writers were just making things up as they went along. This is normally not a good thing for a show of this type but in this case it actually worked because the characters themselves were also making it up as they went along. Somewhere around the end of season 2 the writers all sat down and actually mapped out where the rest of the show was going and you can clearly see this transition take place on screen. This is also when you start to notice the show slowly going down hill.

Yep. There was also a season where SyFy asked for a full 22 episode run and that, to me, was when the padding began. And thus when the series took a downturn.

Hey, back then shows were just written on whims and it worked (see: Lost).

But... But... They had a plan! /s

What's funny is they dropped "they have a plan" from the opening of the show once the writers actually had a plan.

I rather liked the ending. It had some awesome fighting.

NSMike wrote:

But... But... They had a plan! /s

What's funny is they dropped "they have a plan" from the opening of the show once the writers actually had a plan.

I think it went downhill when it became clear to the audience that the Cylons did not have a plan of any kind.

New Caprica? How is that a plan?

Quintin_Stone wrote:
NSMike wrote:

But... But... They had a plan! /s

What's funny is they dropped "they have a plan" from the opening of the show once the writers actually had a plan.

I think it went downhill when it became clear to the audience that the Cylons did not have a plan of any kind.

New Caprica? How is that a plan?

This used to bother me a lot. If the "plan" was to wipe out the human race then the show might have gone two seasons. Two really great seasons, but two seasons. I never saw a hint of a plan beyond the initial strike. The initial strike was a pretty good plan. Everything after that?

DSGamer wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:
NSMike wrote:

But... But... They had a plan! /s

What's funny is they dropped "they have a plan" from the opening of the show once the writers actually had a plan.

I think it went downhill when it became clear to the audience that the Cylons did not have a plan of any kind.

New Caprica? How is that a plan?

This used to bother me a lot. If the "plan" was to wipe out the human race then the show might have gone two seasons. Two really great seasons, but two seasons. I never saw a hint of a plan beyond the initial strike. The initial strike was a pretty good plan. Everything after that?

Didn't they even release a movie called the plan and they still didn't have a plan.

Maybe I should put this in the Geek Blasphemies, but I loved the entire run of BSG.

breander wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:
NSMike wrote:

But... But... They had a plan! /s

What's funny is they dropped "they have a plan" from the opening of the show once the writers actually had a plan.

I think it went downhill when it became clear to the audience that the Cylons did not have a plan of any kind.

New Caprica? How is that a plan?

This used to bother me a lot. If the "plan" was to wipe out the human race then the show might have gone two seasons. Two really great seasons, but two seasons. I never saw a hint of a plan beyond the initial strike. The initial strike was a pretty good plan. Everything after that?

Didn't they even release a movie called the plan and they still didn't have a plan.

Post-modern scifi. Love it.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
NSMike wrote:

But... But... They had a plan! /s

What's funny is they dropped "they have a plan" from the opening of the show once the writers actually had a plan.

I think it went downhill when it became clear to the audience that the Cylons did not have a plan of any kind.

New Caprica? How is that a plan?

It's even worse if you watch that Battlestar Galactica: The Plan film they made afterwards. You think that in a film called The Plan they'd make an effort to include, you know, an actual PLAN. Nooope. There's no f*ckin' plan. They just blow up the colonies and then bumble around ineptly trying to sabotage the fleet. And for no apparent reason aside from "Cavill thinks humans are dumb and inferior."

muttonchop wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:
NSMike wrote:

But... But... They had a plan! /s

What's funny is they dropped "they have a plan" from the opening of the show once the writers actually had a plan.

I think it went downhill when it became clear to the audience that the Cylons did not have a plan of any kind.

New Caprica? How is that a plan?

It's even worse if you watch that Battlestar Galactica: The Plan film they made afterwards. You think that in a film called The Plan they'd make an effort to include, you know, an actual PLAN. Nooope. There's no f*ckin' plan. They just blow up the colonies and then bumble around ineptly trying to sabotage the fleet. And for no apparent reason aside from "Cavill thinks humans are dumb and inferior."

That was the most depressing thing to me. There was a huge opportunity to speak to a lot of interesting issues. The agency or lack thereof of AI, slavery, at what point a sentient being goes from being something humans use to something humans have to treat equally (think testing we do on monkeys, etc.). Instead the whole thing boiled down to a family squabble.

muttonchop wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:
NSMike wrote:

But... But... They had a plan! /s

What's funny is they dropped "they have a plan" from the opening of the show once the writers actually had a plan.

I think it went downhill when it became clear to the audience that the Cylons did not have a plan of any kind.

New Caprica? How is that a plan?

It's even worse if you watch that Battlestar Galactica: The Plan film they made afterwards. You think that in a film called The Plan they'd make an effort to include, you know, an actual PLAN. Nooope. There's no f*ckin' plan. They just blow up the colonies and then bumble around ineptly trying to sabotage the fleet. And for no apparent reason aside from "Cavill thinks humans are dumb and inferior."

I never watched it because of the bad word of mouth.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

I never watched it because of the bad word of mouth.

There's a large penis in one scene.

Jayhawker wrote:

Maybe I should put this in the Geek Blasphemies, but I loved the entire run of BSG.

I can't say I loved it all, but I'm far less critical of the decline in the quality of the series than most. I definitely enjoyed it. It's the best sci-fi romp we've had for a very long time.

I think it started to die its long, drawn-out, horrible death around the time they had Starbuck and Apollo boxing for a full episode.

cheeba wrote:

I think it started to die its long, drawn-out, horrible death around the time they had Starbuck and Apollo boxing for a full episode.

I actually never saw that episode despite having the whole series on DVD.

Jayhawker wrote:

Maybe I should put this in the Geek Blasphemies, but I loved the entire run of BSG.

I'm with Jayhawker.

I know. It scares me, too.

Yeah, I never much understood the hate parade on the latter part of BSG - - most of what people cite as problems were kinda awesome to me, and the only sour note was the theme-hammer in the final scene.

'Course, I felt the same about Lost, so flame on, I guess...

I think the latter half is so harshly judged because the prior half is so damned good. It doesn't live up to the first half, but it's still good sci-fi.

NSMike wrote:

I think the latter half is so harshly judged because the prior half is so damned good. It doesn't live up to the first half, but it's still good sci-fi.

No, it's because it was just plain bad. It wasn't good sci-fi. It was just a bunch of writers not really knowing what the hell they're doing and not being able to write themselves out of what they thought was profound but turned out to be a pile of crap.

cheeba wrote:
NSMike wrote:

I think the latter half is so harshly judged because the prior half is so damned good. It doesn't live up to the first half, but it's still good sci-fi.

No, it's because it was just plain bad. It wasn't good sci-fi. It was just a bunch of writers not really knowing what the hell they're doing and not being able to write themselves out of what they thought was profound but turned out to be a pile of crap.

It was on the SciFi/SyFy channel. Most of what is there is objectively crap. Even the worst of BSG was head & shoulders above it.

And I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you over my opinion of the show, so I'll stop now.

NSMike wrote:

It was on the SciFi/SyFy channel. Most of what is there is objectively crap. Even the worst of BSG was head & shoulders above it.

And I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you over my opinion of the show, so I'll stop now.

I don't mean to argue over opinions on the show, but rather your assessment that people didn't like the 2nd half because of the quality of the 1st half. That had nothing to do with it for me.

I binged everything on Netflix a couple of years ago.
I couldn't stop watching and yet I kept rolling my eyes multiple times per episode.

There was a number of things that they did right and a number of things that they did SO wrong.

First of, it felt improvised throughout. This is the first time I hear that after season 2 there was some sort of mapping out.
It feels everything but.

What bothered me most was the lack of consequence; Baltar is entrusted with a Cylon/Human test. Something happens and everyone forgets about the test.

The writers never knew exactly what the fleet was supposed to be or how it should have behaved. Sometimes it felt like space refugees which felt congruent to me with the whole running away from killer robots. And THEN we have a class struggle episode where the fuel conversion ship demands better working conditions, huh?

Finally there's Baltar; scientist, political persona, religious leader, political figurehead for New Caprica.

Balter, like the show in general, felt all over the place.

Somewhere on an earlier page I made a joke about Baltar and Lee's resumes. They moved through lots of high level jobs in a short amount of time.