NFL 2014: Preseason

Thin_J wrote:
*Legion* wrote:

There should be a clause in the new contract that gives some of Dalton's money to Green every time he has to catch an off-target pass.

That should be a real thing that can happen.

It would be the most brilliant contract deescalator ever. Pumps up Dalton's claimed contract number and gives Green a new performance incentive!

Grantland ran this Dalton article today, intended to be a critique on Dalton and why he hadn't yet earned a big contract.

Timing is a wondrous thing! Today, hours after we published this article, Andy Dalton signed a six-year, $115 million extension with the Bengals. Consider this an argument against that deal.

Article with gifs! Now I can see what he's saying!

Andy Dalton in a sense is the worst QB in the NFL, just because he's not good enough to consistently lead his team to wins, but he isn't bad enough to find a replacement for him. He throws his passes from the Uncanny Valley of Marginal Competence.

Yeah. It's like mediocrity limbo. There's no way out until he shows himself to be genuinely awful.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

Andy Dalton in a sense is the worst QB in the NFL, just because he's not good enough to consistently lead his team to wins, but he isn't bad enough to find a replacement for him. He throws his passes from the Uncanny Valley of Marginal Competence.

And yet, thanks to the quality of his surrounding cast, they do win, making it even harder.

We're talking about the starting QB of 9-7, 10-6, 10-6, and 11-5 teams, on a team that was 4-12 the season before he took over. (Of course, they were 10-6 the year before that, don't look at that!)

The best part is that I look at that team and think, "this team needs a win-now veteran passer for now while they draft and develop their QB of the future for later. Someone like a... Carson Palmer."

Yes, they just signed up for 6 years of being happy with 8 wins. Plus Hue Jackson as their OC does not play to Dalton's 'strengths' and I am not sure if there has been a bigger downgrade this off season in coach changes than from Gruden to Jackson. I would not take a bet of 6.5 wins for the Bengals this year.

I wouldn't expect Hue Jackson to change the offense significantly. He has run different offenses in the past, but he's been on the Bengals staff for the past 2 years. I believe promoting him from within to indicate a desire to run the same general offense the team has been running. Continuity over change. Which makes sense since apparently they think Andy Dalton is so damn great, gotta pay him now.

I've read he is changing to more of a running offense, but we will see.

More running? What year is this?

I find it hard to believe a coach would say during preseason they want to establish the run more. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me they want to be more physical or need some guys to really step it up this year.

LeapingGnome wrote:

I've read he is changing to more of a running offense, but we will see.

Which is funny, because the offenses he ran before Cincinnati ran the ball fewer times on average than the 2013 Bengals.

So, I'm inclined to fall in line with Milkman on this one. I think on the whole, the offense will follow similar patterns to the past couple of years.

But this does bring up an interesting little point. Usually, when a team drops a big contract on a quarterback, it's to have him be the guy that wins games. Even with a guy like Kaepernick, the 49ers talk with the expectation of putting the ball in his hands more, both in the passing game and using him in the running game (as they did in the playoffs, but shied away from in the regular season).

But here, we have the next-big-dollar-QB's offensive coordinator saying that the plan is to take the ball out of his hands more.

For many, many reasons be thankful you don't live in Northeast Ohio. Every day there's Manziel news on the news. Every day. On tv. On the radio. Wherever you go, whatever you're doing you're gonna hear an update about him. You cannot get away from it. It's fantastic.

garion333 wrote:

For many, many reasons be thankful you don't live in Northeast Ohio. Every day there's Manziel news on the news. Every day. On tv. On the radio. Wherever you go, whatever you're doing you're gonna hear an update about him. You cannot get away from it. It's fantastic.

"What would that be like," says guy who lives in area where Favre came to town a few years ago. "Whatever would that be like?"

Don't worry, after a few losses and when basketball season gets closer, it will be 24/7 LeBron in Cleveland.

Oh, that already happened.

Need any deets on his coming back party? His house is about 15 minutes away from where I live.

Not that I'm a Dalton apologist but what was Cincy's other option?

Let him play out the year and force him into a contract more representative of what the market would bear? The assumption here is that he puts up another mediocre season (because he is Andy Dalton) and Cincy can somewhat put the screws to him?

An alternative btw is not draft another QB and have him succeed day 1. I think too many people are getting wrapped up in the recent Luck/RG3/Kapernick/Russell success. Geno Smith people! Geno Smith!

Hearing David Wilson's career is over after using my 5th round Dynasty pick on him.

IMAGE(http://img.pandawhale.com/39226-SjqQ1gif-BYVv.gif)

jowner wrote:

Not that I'm a Dalton apologist but what was Cincy's other option?

Draft Teddy Bridgewater.

An alternative btw is not draft another QB and have him succeed day 1. I think too many people are getting wrapped up in the recent Luck/RG3/Kapernick/Russell success. Geno Smith people! Geno Smith!

Geno Smith was garbage on draft day, no hindsight required. Open up that draft thread and you'll see me begging the Jaguars over and over to not be the team to take him.

And drafting a rookie would not require the rookie to succeed day 1. Dalton still had a year left on his deal.

Let him play out the year and force him into a contract more representative of what the market would bear? The assumption here is that he puts up another mediocre season (because he is Andy Dalton) and Cincy can somewhat put the screws to him?

Yes, let him play out his contract. Make him earn an extension. Draft a would-be QB of the future. Let Dalton either step up and become a franchise QB and hold that other guy off, or fail to do so and move on.

*Legion* wrote:
jowner wrote:

Not that I'm a Dalton apologist but what was Cincy's other option?

Draft Teddy Bridgewater.

An alternative btw is not draft another QB and have him succeed day 1. I think too many people are getting wrapped up in the recent Luck/RG3/Kapernick/Russell success. Geno Smith people! Geno Smith!

Geno Smith was garbage on draft day, no hindsight required. Open up that draft thread and you'll see me begging the Jaguars over and over to not be the team to take him.

And drafting a rookie would not require the rookie to succeed day 1. Dalton still had a year left on his deal.

Let him play out the year and force him into a contract more representative of what the market would bear? The assumption here is that he puts up another mediocre season (because he is Andy Dalton) and Cincy can somewhat put the screws to him?

Yes, let him play out his contract. Make him earn an extension. Draft a would-be QB of the future. Let Dalton either step up and become a franchise QB and hold that other guy off, or fail to do so and move on.

Right but depending on how the deal is structured they can still technically start the same process 1 year later. Just minus some $$$ and some cap flexibility. Hopefully not too much if they did the deal right.

Show confidence in Dalton this year and use the draft to improve the rest of the team.

If hes still Andy Dalton in the 2014 season you draft a QB in 2015 to start to put the pressure on him.

Its hard to like much from Dalton from what I've seen, read in the Grantland article and knowing he has a guy like Green bailing him out.

You can somewhat understand the Bengals conundrum though. If they drafted Bridgewater this year they are minus Darqueze Dennard at CB (no conception of how good he is) and it might start the chain reaction of Dalton imploding by mid season and you throwing Bridgewater in too early.

I'm not sure if they could of structured the deal that 2 years from now Dalton is cut and it doesn't destroy their cap too much but I wouldn't be surprised if hes gone halfway through this deal. Just seems the Bengals are damned no matter what they did.

FSeven wrote:

Hearing David Wilson's career is over after using my 5th round Dynasty pick on him.

The one nice thing about missing the first 7 rounds of the Dynasty Draft is that I can blame the AI for all things crappy.

jowner wrote:

Right but depending on how the deal is structured they can still technically start the same process 1 year later.

We're sitting here debating things we just don't know about yet. That's why I'm still quiet on this whole Dalton thing. It's practically guaranteed they used Kaepernick as a basis but we still don't know.

garion333 wrote:
jowner wrote:

Right but depending on how the deal is structured they can still technically start the same process 1 year later.

We're sitting here debating things we just don't know about yet. That's why I'm still quiet on this whole Dalton thing. It's practically guaranteed they used Kaepernick as a basis but we still don't know.

Its the Bengals who are we kidding!

Its probably a 6 year guaranteed contract where he has to start every game!

garion333 wrote:
jowner wrote:

Right but depending on how the deal is structured they can still technically start the same process 1 year later.

We're sitting here debating things we just don't know about yet. That's why I'm still quiet on this whole Dalton thing. It's practically guaranteed they used Kaepernick as a basis but we still don't know.

We do know. (Once more, let me flog OverTheCap.com's awesomeness)

To compare to the Kaepernick deal: Dalton gets more guaranteed money up front. Both got $12 mil and change in signing bonus, but Dalton gets a $5 mil roster bonus, earned upon signing the contract (structured that way to make the entire $5 mil count against 2014 cap). So Dalton gets $17 mil guaranteed on signing, while Kaepernick gets $12m (OK, closer to $13m)

Dalton also gets a $4 mil roster bonus in 2015, which we can basically treat as part of his salary for that year.

Going forward, Kaepernick's salary figures are larger; each year he's looking at $1-3 mil more in salary than Dalton. Kaepernick also has annual $2 mil roster bonuses, which we can basically treat as part of his salary. Both players can be cut anytime after this season for a net return (or at least a net $0) in cap space vs. keeping them on the roster. So the outs are there for each team.

Both contracts have escalators, or de-escalators as the case may be, which is why the reported total value of the contract in the initial media reports is larger than what OverTheCap states them to be (as OTC treats the de-escalators like escalators, excluding them by default rather than including them as the agents do.)

I think the Dalton deal is a poor one in comparison to the Kaepernick deal, for the following reasons:

(1) An extra $5 mil guaranteed up front... really?

(2) The lower base salaries in the future are a win on paper, but less so in reality. If Dalton plays like a franchise QB, those numbers are low enough that a holdout situation becomes likely. And if he is indeed only worth the salary values for those seasons, is that really who you want to keep? Kaepernick's numbers are high enough that he may outplay them but not feel like they're so low as to bring a holdout situation to the table.

The structure of the deals is similar, but the numbers treat Kaepernick like a guy the 49ers expect to be their franchise QB, while giving them outs if he fails to reach that peak. The Dalton contract numbers treats him like a guy the Bengals don't want to get rid of now, but they're not confident he's going to be a franchise QB later. So he either outplays the deal and demands a new one, or he lives up to the deal and leaves you wishing you had someone else.

I think it's just too much money up front, with insulting numbers later on if he becomes the guy you hope he is. I just don't see the scenario where he plays out the deal and both the team and the player are happy with it.

EDIT: To answer the potential question of what would I have done, if I were intent on signing Dalton to an extension: I would have pushed for something shorter term with less money up front. If I absolutely cannot be allowed to wait until after this year, I'd rather go with a shorter-term deal with the same escape options, less guaranteed money up front, but bigger salaries in the 2016, 2017 seasons. So he either becomes "the guy" and sticks around for those years, or he doesn't and we part ways after 2014 or 2015.

I feel like the Bengals got what they wanted: the ability to cut or dump him. I think this is a two year deal and then they'll figure it out after that.

I can't seem to find anything good being said about EJ Manuel.

I can't seem to find anything good being said about the line in front of him either.

garion333 wrote:

I can't seem to find anything good being said about EJ Manuel.

He hasn't looked great.

I can't seem to find anything good being said about the line in front of him either.

Well their best lineman is LT Cordy Glenn but he's out with illness, expected back by start of regular season. Seantrel Henderson was good in the HOFG in relief of Glenn. Keith Urbik is good too.

LG still a trouble spot. It was a disaster last year, and this year's "solution" appears to be Chris Williams, who has never failed to disappoint.

*Legion* wrote:

Grantland ran this Dalton article today, intended to be a critique on Dalton and why he hadn't yet earned a big contract.

I finally got around to reading this today. Great piece. Bill Barnwell is definitely among the top 10 things I miss about it not being football season.

Enix wrote:
*Legion* wrote:

Grantland ran this Dalton article today, intended to be a critique on Dalton and why he hadn't yet earned a big contract.

I finally got around to reading this today. Great piece. Bill Barnwell is definitely among the top 10 things I miss about it not being football season.

Agreed. I wish Grantland had an RSS feed for just football articles. I bookmark the NFL "tag" page on the site, but I really want RSS.

I've got Grantland on my RSS. They don't post that many daily stories, so it's easy to find the good stuff (Barnwell, Zach Lowe on NBA) and avoid Bill Simmons' navel lint.