Parenting Catch-all

Farscry wrote:

Rough week this week. Leila (6 years old for reference) was very sassy, pouty, crying and fussing a lot, and just generally a little monster. I'm working on that book recommended earlier in the thread, but none of the approaches I've read in it yet were making a dent. First week that I've actually fully run out of patience with her and "angry/disgruntled dad" voice has been in heavy use since Thursday.

Its just tough figuring out how to help her grow out of unreasonable drama into more rational responses and behavior. I don't want her to grow up into an entitled whiner. :)

Hm. I don't use any "patience" with kids. At least not with mine. As outlined in "Gentle Measures... ", I only have a very few non-negotiable rules. No need to spend patience. If the kid breaks the rule, she gets the consequence. Every time. No exceptions. Even when it's really inconvenient for everyone. I make sure the kid understands what's going on. It's purely a mechanistic thing. I'm following policy as much as they are. It's just How Things Are. So I don't use up any patience at all.

Conversely, super liberal on everything else. If they want ice cream for breakfast? Sure. Go ahead.
Pancakes for dinner? Why not?
Wear mismatched socks? Whatever floats your boat, kid.

If I had to redo everything at an older age, I think I'd start off with one or two really important foundational Rules; then build out the relationship from there.

The thing I liked a lot about "How to Talk..." is its emphasis on building a parent-child relationship based on mutual respect. You gotta respect your kid. They'll pick it up real fast if you don't.

Larry, I think that you must be more patient than most of us!

Just the sound of whining and crying will eventually push me to a limit, even if I do my best to ignore it. That can happen when we can't make the impossible (like going every day to the zoo, which is 2 hours away) possible.

Then there are the requests for help that can come at 10 minute or so intervals on a not-so-good day. I find it can be very wearing, despite the efforts I make to stay calm, and that's when I am most likely to get angry.

concentric wrote:

Larry, I think that you must be more patient than most of us!

Just the sound of whining and crying will eventually push me to a limit, even if I do my best to ignore it. That can happen when we can't make the impossible (like going every day to the zoo, which is 2 hours away) possible.

Then there are the requests for help that can come at 10 minute or so intervals on a not-so-good day. I find it can be very wearing, despite the efforts I make to stay calm, and that's when I am most likely to get angry.

I can't discount the possibility that I may just have been blessed with naturally well-balanced kids. At least, they're very much like me when I was growing up, so I have a great deal of insight into what they want and how they think.

One of the first things I established was that crying was for being sad. Any crying that wasn't sad-crying or frustration-crying gets you sent to the corner until you're done. Take as long as you like, but keep everyone else out of it. Sad-crying is fine. Hurt-crying is fine. Frustration-crying is fine. You get hugs and Mom and Dad will seriously listen to your troubles.

Everything else? So not. Whining? Yeah. Ignore. Mom and Dad are only going to listen to what you have to say when you say it right. Everything else is rightly and totally ignored. Whine to your bedpost. Whine to your notebook. Whine to your stuffed toy. When you have something important to say, you know how to say it - because we explicitly taught them how and model the behavior constantly.

I also make it a point not to do things for them. I tell them how to do it. I help them when they obviously can't, and only in very assistive ways. If they can get it themselves, I tell them straight off that they can expect nothing from me but the utmost support and belief in their ability to do it themselves.

I think it helps to make it so the house is "kid-friendly." This involves not just rounding off the edges but also making it so the kids can do the stuff they want without my having to help them in obvious ways. For kids below 6, this involved a LOT of shelves at knee-height, peanut butter in plastic containers, unbreakable water bottles, and so on. So, if they want a snack or a drink, they can very well get it themselves!

It's the picking up after themselves that's really hard to nail down. I still have problems with that (but it's getting better). My wife (pedia) tells me this is strictly a matter of biology. In all fairness, I AM kind of a slob, so it's not like I'm setting a good example.

EDIT:

Imaging the scenario and roleplaying it in my head, here's how I would handle requests every 10 minutes:

"You've been asking me for a lot of help today. It must be frustrating to have to wait on me so you can do the stuff you want. Is there something else you really need or want to say, or do we need to fix things differently so you can get to the good stuff faster?"

I expect that kids who keep pestering you for help they don't really need want to talk, need a hug, or just really want to play with you. It's kinda hard to turn those things down, even for me.

Zoo scenario:

Kid: "I want to go to the zoo tomorrow! I want to go to the zoo everyday!"
Me (incredulous look): "You know that's not possible."
Kid: "But I want to!"
Me: "I can see why. I had a lot of fun, too. Zoo's awesome. I'd want to go everyday."
Kid: "So we're going everyday?!?"
Me: (look at kid meaningfully) "You know why that's not possible, right?"
Kid: "It's too far. I wish it were closer."
Me: "Me, too, buddy. I wish they'd make neighborhood zoos or something. That'd be awesome. As it is now, if we went everyday, you wouldn't be able to play anything else. Bye bye LEGOs. Bye bye dollies. Bye bye crayons. Might as well sell 'em off."

My wife has this thing where she just likes vocalizing what she's thinking. I think the kids have it, too. They aren't necessarily asking for the thing they want. They're just expressing the want and would appreciate some sympathy and maybe a little fantasy talk.

LarryC, I agree with and am helped by your advice in this post. The emphasis on empathy, listening, and respect is something I really like.

What is happening specifically in my household means that the scenarios you construct don't necessarily apply completely, for example my 4 year old isn't capable of the kind of reasoning you mention in the zoo, and the interruptions are not just from one child, but two, both 4 and under, as well as dogs, the phone, etc. In my case, it's also just me getting tired and frustrated, and that really can't be discounted either.

I was worried about overstepping, concentric. I'm glad to be of any help. I can't imagine having to handle both kids under 4 on top of a dog. That's a very challenging workload! The book I'm reading now, "It's OK Not To Share," is specifically about raising kids from ages 2-6. It's good. Previously recommended above by another GWJer.

I wish you all the luck, all the support you need!

No worries at all, LarryC. I always value what you have to say.

I have two under three and it's also impossible to have that kind of reasoning with our eldest, not to mention that he speaks very little. I love the idea and principle of it though. But no way we're at that stage yet.

Eleima wrote:

I have two under three and it's also impossible to have that kind of reasoning with our eldest, not to mention that he speaks very little. I love the idea and principle of it though. But no way we're at that stage yet. :(

We had two under three, and stupidly, that's when I took over the SAHP role... Hindsight

It sounds weird, but do it anyway. Answer for them too. It will save your sanity, just hearing yourself talk it out, and you're modeling their responses, without them realising it.

I'm pretty sure now that my eldest (6) 'gets it' because when doing the responses I wanted from her younger sister, I would stand behind her and move her arms and body in little gestures, like a little meat puppet, as I talked back my responses.

As 'creepy' as it sounds, they both loved me doing it, and I think that is why now they come to me with problems, and why Mummy is the go to when they are trying to operate outside of the parameters.

YMMV, but talking to yourself when surrounded by little ones (usually in array of accents and silly voices) became the norm for me.

Solid stuff, m0nk3yboy. I'm almost always acutely aware of the recording software inside my kids' heads. Everything I do and how I do it is being recorded for playback later on. There have been many times where I forgot that and promptly regretted it as the kids started acting in ways I disapproved of - by mimicking me!

Even how I manage obvious frustration and annoyance is being totally recorded. So when I'm faced with that challenge, I see it as a teaching moment. Even when I'm not saying anything overt, I'm still a teacher.

One of the hardest things we had to deal with below 4 was the the sibling rivalry. It was fairly vicious, too. Laura regressed in several milestones and your head wants to think of it as her being spiteful and needy. Constant battle on that front for at least 5 years of 7. I don't know how my wife handled it. Between modeling, nonverbal cues, instruction, practice, and repetition it's like you're in a constant covert information war at home. We use to "joke" that the only rest we got was when we went out to work!

It pays back, though. We got a lot of conflict resolution skills down pat by now.

We were particularly lucky on the communication front. We started in on that sign language thing from 3 or 4 months. Of course, you never knew if it was taking, but we did it anyway. Both kids were communicative from about 5 or 6 months. I figure we got in an extra year or so of instruction because of that and it really cut down on their toddler year frustrations. Can't recommend it enough.

EDIT:

From the benefit of both hindsight and handling other kids (god kids, nieces, cousins), please let me reassure you, Eleima and concentric, that nothing you're doing is going unnoticed. They may speak little, but they're listening and remembering with all the might of their little brains. Sometimes it feels like you're trying to empty the ocean with a spoon, but you're getting there!

In an emergency, pass off the kids to your partner, go to your room, lock the door, and scream into your pillow. You'll need a comfy, good smelling pillow.

Solid stuff, the both of you, for sure. I do keep talking to my eldest, no doubt about it, I explain everything, I tell him why some things are off limit (dangerous). It's just not paying off. Yet. I hope. He'll get it. Eventually. Right?

Prozac wrote:

Really? My wife is vegetarian and has been trying to minimise soy protein based intake because, based on her research into it, the phyto-estrogens can increase her levels over and above those normally produced which would cause an imbalance with the progesterone. Have you got any links that debunk this as a myth? If so I'll point her towards them.

m0nk3yboy wrote:

It cropped up a few times in the searches I did when looking into vegetarian alternatives for my kids, so any info would be appreciated, either way.

I somewhat stand corrected on this. The myth is the effect on men (infertility, breast growth, general feminization, etc). I'm not sure one way or the other on the effect on women, as there does seem to be more evidence there.

Hey dads.

Spoiler:

Happy Father's day!

Chairman_Mao wrote:

Hey dads.

Spoiler:

Happy Father's day!

Not until September for me and Monkeyboy.

Prozac wrote:
Chairman_Mao wrote:

Hey dads.

Spoiler:

Happy Father's day!

Not until September for me and Monkeyboy.

Eh, you guys get two Father's Days, then!

I do think my son is absorbing a lot about politeness. The people he sees for his various therapies all say he is unusually polite, and while part must be due to the therapy, quite a lot comes from how his father and I talk - we always emphasize it. So even when he's really upset about something, he will say, "No thank you!" while crying, etc.

sometimesdee wrote:
Prozac wrote:
Chairman_Mao wrote:

Hey dads.

Spoiler:

Happy Father's day!

Not until September for me and Monkeyboy.

Eh, you guys get two Father's Days, then! :)

Not until the blood work proves it!

Oh, wait...

Thanks Dee!

Got a call from the geneticist today to tell us that they had information regarding the results of the genetic testing on Mrs P. and Dave from about 8 months ago. the call was to tell us they had information but couldn't tell us and that the geneticist would call us "soon". sometime before July the 1st. Mrs P. is incredibly frustrated by this.

Prozac wrote:

Got a call from the geneticist today to tell us that they had information regarding the results of the genetic testing on Mrs P. and Dave from about 8 months ago. the call was to tell us they had information but couldn't tell us and that the geneticist would call us "soon". sometime before July the 1st. Mrs P. is incredibly frustrated by this.

I'd post the Spaceball clip, but the delay is sucky enough to make any attempt at levity seem trite.

On the plus side, July the 1st is less than three weeks away. The only downside I can see is with Australian Medical bureaucracy, did they stipulate a 'year' in that date estimation?

Appreciate the feedback from my complaint post, folks.

Unfortunately most of it is stuff I'm already doing (to various degrees of success), and I think a lot of the difficulty last week was more due to conflict between Leila and her mom than between Leila and me. When I've got her on my own, she tends to be better behaved, and I attribute a lot of that to the way that I relate to her. Her mom loses patience more easily (understandably; she's been a single mom until the last year when I came into their lives and started helping out more over time; since we moved in together, she's finally been able to start getting more of a balance to her life rather than always being the sole caregiver), and hasn't had the education I have in working with children (I was an English/Education double-major in college, and my Ed Psych classes in particular are coming in handy now).

So when it's just Leila and me, I am able to provide a more calm and measured response to her than her mom often does. I think she responds very well to that. I'm trying to help my girlfriend with having more patience and being less fussy with her, but it's hard to coach her without making her feel like I'm patronizing her -- which I am absolutely not! I've explained that I've got more patience partly because I'm the outsider coming in who hasn't had to handle everything solo for the last six years.

Anyway, yes, last week was extra rough, hopefully after a nice weekend we're off to a good start for this week.

Prozac wrote:

Got a call from the geneticist today to tell us that they had information regarding the results of the genetic testing on Mrs P. and Dave from about 8 months ago. the call was to tell us they had information but couldn't tell us and that the geneticist would call us "soon". sometime before July the 1st. Mrs P. is incredibly frustrated by this.

That's just sh*tty. Why would you do that to someone? "We have important news that we're not going to tell you!" ... douchecanoes.

Spoiler:

That's douche-canoes-like-the-boat, not a porte-manteau of douche and volcanoes.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Prozac wrote:

Got a call from the geneticist today to tell us that they had information regarding the results of the genetic testing on Mrs P. and Dave from about 8 months ago. the call was to tell us they had information but couldn't tell us and that the geneticist would call us "soon". sometime before July the 1st. Mrs P. is incredibly frustrated by this.

That's just sh*tty. Why would you do that to someone? "We have important news that we're not going to tell you!" ... douchecanoes.

Spoiler:

That's douche-canoes-like-the-boat, not a porte-manteau of douche and volcanoes.

Sharknado 3: Douchecanoes Erupt!

sometimesdee wrote:

Douchecanoes Erupt!

Pack an umbrella!

Kind of unrelated to parenting, but I saw a mid-30's man yesterday who had a BMW emblem tattooed to his ankle. I suspect that this is one sign of a douchecanoe. Thoughts?

m0nk3yboy wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:

Douchecanoes Erupt!

Pack an umbrella!

Got it! (NSFW for language)

concentric wrote:

Kind of unrelated to parenting, but I saw a mid-30's man yesterday who had a BMW emblem tattooed to his ankle. I suspect that this is one sign of a douchecanoe. Thoughts?

I believe that's a sign of a doucheyacht.

sometimesdee wrote:
m0nk3yboy wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:

Douchecanoes Erupt!

Pack an umbrella!

Got it! (NSFW for language)

concentric wrote:

Kind of unrelated to parenting, but I saw a mid-30's man yesterday who had a BMW emblem tattooed to his ankle. I suspect that this is one sign of a douchecanoe. Thoughts?

I believe that's a sign of a doucheyacht.

I'll go with doucheschooner, and hope he was also wearing boat shoes.

DiscoDriveby wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:
m0nk3yboy wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:

Douchecanoes Erupt!

Pack an umbrella!

Got it! (NSFW for language)

concentric wrote:

Kind of unrelated to parenting, but I saw a mid-30's man yesterday who had a BMW emblem tattooed to his ankle. I suspect that this is one sign of a douchecanoe. Thoughts?

I believe that's a sign of a doucheyacht.

I'll go with doucheschooner, and hope he was also wearing boat shoes.

Running shoes, no socks.

Back on topic: one of my biggest fears in raising a son in Massachusetts is that he will indeed become a stereotypical New England preppy douchecanoe.

Look on the bright side, he could become a crunchy "I don't wear shoes because I'm in touch with the earth, jobs are for suckers--power to the people! what do you think of the car my parents bought me when I got my license?" douchecanoe.

complexmath wrote:

Look on the bright side, he could become a crunchy "I don't wear shoes because I'm in touch with the earth, jobs are for suckers--power to the people! what do you think of the car my parents bought me when I got my license?" douchecanoe.

Which is a slightly different Massachusetts stereotype.

Here's a thought that just occurred: Having your first child involves so much mental, physical, and emotional upheaval and rewiring it's like voluntarily re-entering puberty.