So... Warriors. Do they suck?

"Thegameguru" wrote:

A good well played warrior will not have problems holding aggro in a smart group..In fact they''ll be the best at doing it.

If your playing with idiots then I have no idea...but dont blame Blizzard.

When my hunter pet is holding aggro better than a warrior at the same or higher level (my experience in both groups I played with a warrior), I''d say there''s something wrong with the warrior class. Even a poorly played warrior should be better at holding it than a pet. I accidentally steal aggro from my pet all the time, but a warrior can''t manage that trick deliberately?

I mean... that''s the whole point of that class - their dps is gimped and apparently their armor/health isn''t all that great for many, many levels. If something else at their level is holding aggro better, then the warrior class has ceased to have a reason for existence, at least until they level up to stronger tanking abilities. Just my opinion based on a couple of instance gruops, though. Maybe I just have had bad luck grouping with warriors?

"KillerTomato" wrote:
"Thegameguru" wrote:

A good well played warrior will not have problems holding aggro in a smart group..In fact they''ll be the best at doing it.

If your playing with idiots then I have no idea...but dont blame Blizzard.

When my hunter pet is holding aggro better than a warrior at the same or higher level (my experience in both groups I played with a warrior), I''d say there''s something wrong with the warrior class. Even a poorly played warrior should be better at holding it than a pet. I accidentally steal aggro from my pet all the time, but a warrior can''t manage that trick deliberately?

I mean... that''s the whole point of that class - their dps is gimped and apparently their armor/health isn''t all that great for many, many levels. If something else at their level is holding aggro better, then the warrior class has ceased to have a reason for existence, at least until they level up to stronger tanking abilities. Just my opinion based on a couple of instance gruops, though. Maybe I just have had bad luck grouping with warriors?

No...thats my point...its easy to steal aggro away from a Warrior..

From what your saying you expect a warrior to keep aggro away from a Taunting pet and a nuke happy Mage..

Why? I wouldnt expect Blizzard to break those kind of mechanics.

Everyone has to understand their own class and play well together.. you can''t expect to have every class function properly if people dont know what they are doing.

I repeat.. in a well played group with a well played warrior there shouldnt be any reason that the Warrior cannot keep multiple mobs aggro''d to him.

Now like allways sh*t hits the fan more times than not...but that life and thats part of the game.. if it was easy all the time then it wouldnt be fun and simply be like pushing buttons.

But no...at the core Warriors are not a broken design.

Do they need tweaks? Yeah sure... like all classes in the game..

Its month 2 I''m sure its going to take Blizzard some time to balance everything out right.

Yeah, I also admit that I don''t ""get"" this thread. As a priest having done about 6 instances now and getting close to countless other groupings, the one guy I love to have in the group is a warrior. Paladins, hunters, rogues are all nice, but good warriors do hold aggro. Priest/warrior in particular is very synergistic; the warrior just keeps absorbing the damage and chopping away (also keeping the priest from becoming smeered pink bits), and the priest keeps that health bar from draining out. And I''m learning slowly (trying to get better at the game) that when warrior''s don''t hold aggro, it''s often (of course not always) because the priests or mages aren''t pacing their spells properly.

You can really tell the difference in my opinion; Paladins just don''t hold the aggro (and have a tendency to play around to damn much with self-heals and their other goofy spells :)). Rogues are nice, but don''t have the staying power you need when you draw 5 guys by accident. I''ve seen bad warriors and good warriors (or at least what I think are bad and good in my limited experience), and what suprised me most is that for what is viewed as a ""stupid tank"" class, there''s a big difference between how they are played and how well the group does.

By saying this, I''m not saying that in general the other classes all suck, just trying to put the warrior into what I believe is better perspective.

"SlyFrog" wrote:

Yeah, I also admit that I don''t ""get"" this thread.

I asked a question. Do Warriors suck or is it just me?

Your illuminating tale of warrior efficacy indicates which end of the spectrum your opinion lies.

This gives me hope however, as you are describing higher level content which gamely leads me to hope that if I tough it out things will finally start to kick into gear. (And i think they have to some small degree.)

I gotta agree with Sly in regards to the paladin comment. For me, the role of a tank is to be able to grab and maintain aggro. Warriors have a vast array of tools at their disposal for this task, only a few of which I''m familiar with. For paladins, the best we can do is run retribution, do a judgement of a seal of fury followed up by something else (probably righteousness from what I hear). Every 60 sec (which is once in a fight), we can stun... otherwise we''re SOL in regards to getting aggro off the puller (since we can''t pull worth squat unless we invest 31 points in our holy talent).

Warriors may need tweaking, but they don''t suck. They''re the tank that has been giving the greatest capacity to fulfill it''s primary duty to hold aggro. They can be easily out-aggroed by other casters but when compared to a paladin in a group setting, they are not broken (neither are paladins for that matter).

And when people scream nerf on the warcraft boards based on their dealings w/ duels, don''t believe that crap. While paladins are designed to be self-reliant, warriors are designed for groups and to be my damn meat shield

"Spleen" wrote:
"SlyFrog" wrote:

Yeah, I also admit that I don''t ""get"" this thread.

I asked a question. Do Warriors suck or is it just me?

By thread, I did not mean ""strictly limited to your original question, without context to any responses or context thereof."" Just for sake of clarity. By ""get"" I did not mean literally ""understand on a basic cognitive level.""

"TheGameguru" wrote:

While thats true..I''m pretty sure like Rogues and Hunters get more inherent bonuses from AGI....Warriors get more HP bonus from Stam than other classes.

Additionally I''m pretty sure the fixed HP bonuses all classes get that are exempt from Stam are higher for Warriors than other classes.

I''ll get a 60 warrior and a 60 Rogue to strip necked! and we''ll check it out.

I''d love to see the numbers. I''ll bet that the warrior has a bit more hitpoints, but far less than you would expect based on the difference between their naked stamina. I''d put some gold on it but there''s no inter-realm mail

Way to take a somewhat tongue-in-cheek question and post and spin it into asshole territory.

*EDIT*

I''ll clarify. Spleen was looking for suggestions and feedback on what he may be missing with the Warrior class. There seem to be some fairly dismissive comments here in addition to some constructive ones.

The problem is that there are tons of threads like this on all the classes in each of the official forums..

Its hilarious.

There are no Tank Mages anymore..

All classes will envy other classes in some degree.

Hakuna Matata man. No harm no foul.

Actually I''ve learned a lot in this thread, some good posts giving me a better idea on how to proceed.

"TheGameguru" wrote:

The problem is that there are tons of threads like this on all the classes in each of the official forums..

Its hilarious.

There are no Tank Mages anymore..

All classes will envy other classes in some degree.

Yeah but I''ve played all the classes but Paladin,and IMO no game mechanic is more consistently frustrating than rage generation. Period. Given that it''s a different mechanic than anything else I know of in other MMORPGs, it''s pretty unsurprising that it needs tweaking still. Nonetheless, it can be absolutely maddening.

I will say this... Warriors benefit the most (esp. in instances) from being 4-5 levels higher than the highest mob in the instance. This will allow the warrior to hold aggro much more consistantly.

I used to not think much of small bonuses to Defense or your weapon skills.. But a +5 bonus to either of them means your effectively 1 level higher than your actual level in that skill.. So give a warrior a fully spec''d out Protection talent tree and they are +10 Defense so effectively 2 levels higher than others in defense.

Add the percentages to block more with shield...recieve more defense per armor point and weapon damage.

We just did Zul''Farrak last night and had a 50 Warrior and she never had any problems holding aggro. We had zero deaths..

Though the last boss seemed bugged... we couldnt complete that quest.

It''s just you.

I love the Warrior class. The way I see it, you can spec a Warrior in one of two ways: the prototypical Defensive warrior, or a high-DPS warrior. Both of them are effective, but they require different play styles. As a Warrior, I never have a problem holding aggro, even in groups. I can also speak to the effectiveness of a Priest/Warrior combo, even as just a two person team. Matter-of-fact, while I think the Warrior is a fine solo class (I easily take on 2-3 monsters of my same level with no problem), the addition of a Priest makes a Warrior an unstoppable killing machine, allowing the warrior to go on killing monster after monster with downtime only needed when the Priest runs out of mana.

The thing about the Warrior is that they get better the longer the fighting goes on, because rages goes up, not down. With every other class, their bars start high and go down to zero. The warrior starts at zero and goes up, up, up. As long as they have something to keep their health up, the warrior can go on like the Energizer bunny.

Speaking of the whiny posts on the Blizzard forum, I posted this earlier (under the name of my Lvl 3 Rogue):

Dear Blizzard,

I just saw a Level 50 character that was able to kill a monster that I have been unable to solo in, like, one hit. This is very unfair. My class is obviously gimped, and needs to be fixed NOW.

Now, I have noticed that there are lots of other threads about how people feel other classes are better then theirs. At first, I thought those people were merely whiners that didn''t know how to play their class or didn''t realize that each class is supposed to be better at different things. But after this whole ''one-hit'' incident, I see their collective point.

I would like to suggest, no...let me take a hint from my fellow whiners (I mean concerned observers)...nay demand, that you make changes to gimp the other classes or make mine better. I suggest that you give my class the ability to kill any monster I see in one hit both melee and at range. I also think that I should be given a heal and area-effect attack (that also kills any monster in one hit).

Hmm. Once you do that though, other people will be complaining about how ''uber'' my class is compared to theirs. That''s tough. I''ve got it! Make it so everyone can kill anything with one hit, in melee or at range, can wear any armor, gets an ''uber'' AE attack, can stealth, and can heal. Oh yeah, and gets a free mount, since that is unfair too. I''d like my mount to be a cool dragon.

Thanks for listening, and I DEMAND that all of those fixes get put into the next patch, or I will take my ball and go home.

Nice. Very nice.

"Eezy_Bordone" wrote:

Well curb/flux and I are a 2 pronged force to be reckoned with.

Even if he hits first I end up with aggro and once that happens the mob is getting it from the front and back, add in curbs backstab and it''s death city.

Preach on brotha!

I agree with a bit of GG, JMJ, and Eezy''s points. It is a matter of preference and play style on how you play your warrior IMO. Eezy has never used a shield and he has held aggro well too. We have been able to duo many elite mobs. I know it will get tougher in the next few instances but for now he can use 2h weapon effectively and we get the job done. Besides, if I was a warrior I would want to hit for 12k+ in a single hit (which they can do), just makes the game fun.

Sorry I didn''t get this on last night but I played for about 90 minutes and then the wife got home. I''m trying to stick to my hour a night during the week except Tuesdays so I can lead a ''normal'' life which really means hang out with the woman.

OK, I am an aggressive warrior. I can take on baddies up to 2 lvls higher than me pretty much OK, 3 levels higher and it starts to get dicey. I kill just as often as I get killed fighting a single non-elite mob 3lvls above me. For multiple mobs, I try not to do it even if they''re below me in level (but if it''s more than a 5lvl difference I won''t care as much), I like to not waste time with corpse runs.

Aggro isn''t too hard to maintain for me and the only time I don''t hold it (or even expect to) is when we''re fighting a bunch of mobs 5+ lvls BELOW us and Leap is throwing out the nuke spells like a mad man. I have no idea if I''m a good or bad warrior really. You''ll have to ask the people I group with and that''s Curb, Leaping, Cope, Tycho and some others to an extent.

At level 43 I currently have 2251 hitpoints and 2236 armor.

You can see my vitals here:
IMAGE(http://www.bordone.com/temp/rusk-stats.jpg)

I am what is called a ''crit'' build because my talents are geared towards maximizing the amount of critical hits I can get. Axes and Polearms are the two weapons you can do this build with as their weapon bonus is to add a %point to chance-to-crit. I do a crit at least once per battle for anywhere between 250-500pts of damage on a mob about my level. I''ve done 1500+ dmg crits on mobs 10+ lvls BELOW me.

To put into text the Talen tree here goes:
Improved Heroic Strike - 1
Deflection - 5
Improved Rend - 3
Improved Charge - 1
Tactical Mastery - 5
Improved OverPower - 2
Anger management - 1
Deep Wounds - 3
2h Wep Spec - 5
Impale - 2
Axe Specialization - 5
Sweeping Strikes - 1
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Total points = 34

Deflection - It''s always good to be able to parry the incoming blows. That which does not hit me can''t kill me.

Rend is the second thing I ''cast'' after Sunder Armor, it makes the bad guys bleed for x number of points over 30 seconds. It helps buid hate and it''s a decent DoT for us warriors.

Charge I only did one point in because I do like it and it helps get me the 15rage I need for Sunder as soon as I hit on my charge (if I do hit).

Tactical Mastery, for all I know these points could be a waste for me at this time as I don''t switch from Battle Stance all that often. But to restate, Defense Stance is better for managing aggro and I''m going to be messing with this next time I instance in an an instance close to my level. I don''t see the point in Scarlett Monestary where I''m 10+ levels higher than the mobs.

Improved Overpower, if you''re a warrior you need to put 2 points into this. A 50% chance to do a crit on an overpower blow (which can only be cast when the mob dodges a blow). It''s a no brainer, I''m always hoping the thing dodges.

Anger Management makes my rage go down slower out of combat. It''s just about worth the 5 points I had to put into TM to get it, provided I didn''t use execute on the last mob.

Deep Wounds, this allows my crits to do bleeding damage. It''s similar to rend but counts as a second debuff so I can have them both on there at the same time.

The 2h weapon specialization is a must for me solo. I do more damage with a 2h''er and the down time is lower.

Impale helps my overall chance to crit in any stance.

Axe specialization, this is my bread and butter. I''ve respecced twice just because of weapon changes. The first time was for the polearm I was using then after I got this axe I respecced again for it. It was worth it for how I play currently and I''m sure I''ll respec again.

Sweeping Strikes... There was some confusion here after the lastest patch because it stopped showing the damage you do to the ''additional'' mobs. I''m pretty sure this is a bug as it has been reported the damage is still happening but there''s nothing notifying you that it is and how much. SS mixed with Cleave = deadly mix for your enemies.

So that''s my current build. I''ve got to get ready to meet the carpool, ask any questions I''ll answer as best I can.

Updates - Spelling & Grammar. I''m my own worst editor.

I think part of the issues with Warriors holding aggro is not enough of them use the special skills given to them for this purpose. We have several skills that do little to no damage to a mob, but really really really pisses them off. There''s no reason to ever use them when soloing and at first when I saw them up for purchase I was like why the hell would I want to purchase an attack that does nothing but make the monster mad? But once I started grouping I ran out and purchased them all. Taunt and Sunder Armor immediately come to mind. I think there''s a few other low damaging attacks that have a comment near the end that says something like ""oh yeah, this increases enemy threat also"". So it''s just a matter of knowing all the skills available to you and knowing when to break them out when you see you''re losing aggro.

Besides, if I was a warrior I would want to hit for 12k+ in a single hit (which they can do), just makes the game fun. icon_smile.gif

uh 1200?

12000! no way.

Yep, 12k. That was not a typo. It is a talent that can be used when something is below 20% health and a certain amount of levels below you or something. There is a thread on the WoW forums.

"Flux" wrote:

Yep, 12k. That was not a typo. It is a talent that can be used when something is below 20% health and a certain amount of levels below you or something. There is a thread on the WoW forums.

oh ah...a specific situation..

I was trying to do the math and figuring out what weapon with a critical and how much damage one could do.

"Dramatic Marlin" wrote:

Way to take a somewhat tongue-in-cheek question and post and spin it into asshole territory.

*EDIT*

I''ll clarify. Spleen was looking for suggestions and feedback on what he may be missing with the Warrior class. There seem to be some fairly dismissive comments here in addition to some constructive ones.

Who was dismissive? The only thing I thought was questionable (and I wasn''t sure how it was intended, so I don''t know if it was intended to be insulting) was from Spleen in response to me.

I know that I wouldn''t have wasted the time writing 2 or 3 solid paragraphs just to be dismissive.

Curb is talking about Execute. I''ve had some pretty big numbers using this (4000) BUT the mob has to be at 20% or lower health and it costs 15 rage. For every point of rage you have over 15 it does another 3 points of damage. It uses all of the rage in your pool when you cast this.

It''s a nice attack but since it uses all of your rage it''s something I save for a boss or when the mage/priest is out of mana and we''re going to have some downtime anyway. I like to keep my rage in between mobs when I can.

The improved execute talents reduce the cost of the ablilty by two and then 5 (so it would cost 10) thus giving you a +15 (5rage*3) bonus damage. Many warriors (me included) don''t see this as a benefit though since it''s only 15 more damage and the ability eats all of your rage anyway.

I had a chance to try out Defensive Stance and related skills in a small group last night and I must say, the difference is astonishing.

Having never played with other people online before WoW, class and group dynamics has been a learning experience for me. Since I started my warrior off playing entirely solo for the first several levels, I pretty much got into the battle stance/dealing damage habit and never paid much attention to defensive stance when it became available.

Now that I''ve had a opportunity to try it out along with the totally cool Sunder Armor skill, I can say this is exactly what I''ve been missing.

For soloing, I''m still all battle stance and damage dealing. I use a two-handed weapon and dish out sunder armor, rend, demoralizing shout, hamstring, and battle shout as often as needed.

For group play, I''m now going with a one-hand weapon & shield in defensive stance with sunder armor, battle shout, rend, demoralizing shout as the most frequent skills used.

The difference in grabbing and holding aggro in a defensive stance with sunder armor applied was incredible. It definitely works much better in keeping mobs focused on me rather than more damage-susceptible party members.

Awesome post Eezy.

Wouldnt be fair to Rogues then...Warrior get plate, dual weild more HPS and do more damage?

Why would then say anyone even want to group with a Rogue?

Which is my point, I didn''t elucidate it well, Blizzard specifically held back on warriors to make the other classes useful in a group. They didn''t want people saying they would only take warriors in their group because they needed a ""real"" melee class... Look at mercenaries in DAoC, they were an unbelievable damage dealing class, but because their armor was trash, no one could level them all the way to 50. Blizzard fixed this by making the rogue a very strong melee class, but it was at the expense of the warrior''s usefulness.

"Lester_King" wrote:
Wouldnt be fair to Rogues then...Warrior get plate, dual weild more HPS and do more damage?

Why would then say anyone even want to group with a Rogue?

Which is my point, I didn''t elucidate it well, Blizzard specifically held back on warriors to make the other classes necessary in a group. They didn''t want people saying they would only take warriors in their group because they needed a ""real"" melee class... Look at mercenaries in DAoC, they were an unbelievable damage dealing class, but because their armor was trash, no one could level them all the way to 50. Blizzard fixed this by making the rogue a very strong melee class, but it was at the expense of the warrior''s usefulness.

I played DAoC for a couple of years. There are plenty of level 50 mercenaries in DAoC, and they''re not in the least bit difficult to get there.

Blizzard did absolutely nothing different from DAoC, or any other MMORPG for that matter, when it came to balancing balancing warriors'' and rogues'' armor and damage dealing potential. Lower damage, higher armor for the tanks and higher damage, lower armor for the rogues.

Blizzard fixed this by making the rogue a very strong melee class, but it was at the expense of the warrior''s usefulness.

Im sorry thats simply not true... try any instance with a Rogue as your main tank (45+) you''ll see how far you dont get.

Or you''ll manage through at a snails pace cause your healers will burn so much mana every fight.

"SlyFrog" wrote:

Who was dismissive? The only thing I thought was questionable (and I wasn''t sure how it was intended, so I don''t know if it was intended to be insulting) was from Spleen in response to me.

I know that I wouldn''t have wasted the time writing 2 or 3 solid paragraphs just to be dismissive.

To quote some movie guy who is sampled in the beginning of Civil War by Guns n'' Roses, what we have here... is a failure to communicate.

The wording of my post to you was odd, but I really did find it illuminating, I wasn''t just winding you up. I played a monk in the Guild Wars beta and what you wrote about the healer/fighter bond rang true to me. I''ve never played with a priest in the group in WoW, but definitely understand how the 2 would really play off one another. I thought it was an interesting post which is why I responded.

As to how I responded, I was trying to be comic with your first line by intimating ""forget these other posts, it''s really all about me.""

Apparently a failed comic moment. Alas, I shall add it to my ever growing pile.

I''m glad you posted actually, in that I''d rather be misunderstood and have a chance to explain than just assume that you''re a humour deficient jerk for your reply.

Just to clarify, I don''t think you''re a humour deficient jerk. Now.

Ah... Teh Intarweb, what a tangled web it weaves.

"Spleen" wrote:

I''m glad you posted actually, in that I''d rather be misunderstood and have a chance to explain than just assume that you''re a humour deficient jerk for your reply.

Just to clarify, I don''t think you''re a humour deficient jerk. Now.

Ah... Teh Intarweb, what a tangled web it weaves.

O.K., I get it now, I just didn''t know which direction you were coming from in your post. *BIG HUG* All is right with the world again. The hatred and rage that always burns inside of me has subsided a bit, but for how long? Muhuahahahahahah!

P.S. I am a jerk, just not humour deficient, so you were at least 50% right.

"SlyFrog" wrote:

The hatred and rage that always burns inside of me has subsided a bit, but for how long?

See, if I could get hatred and rage always burning inside my Warrior, I wouldn''t have had to start this damn thread!